The United Nations Charter of Human Rights and Islam

[ozymandias]

No where did I fall in the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, no where. I have always maintained that anyone, and I mean anyone, who calls himself or herself a Muslim is a Muslim, but this does not necessarily mean that his or her actions are Islamic.

And that is the 'hook' you use to pull out the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.

You state that anyone that does not match *your* notion of what Islamic is, is not Islamic.

Nonetheless, please provide verses from the Holy Quran to show what is happening is Islam.

Once again, it is up to you to show that Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic country -- I have pointed out that it is almost universally agreed by scholars that it is, thus you need to prove your claim that it is not.

The fact is, I have not lived with these people, nor been able to discuss in depth with them why they feel that their religion justifies such immoral things as forcing school girls to burn to death rather than walk outside a burning building without a scarf -- but I do not have to do that to understand that the religious laws enforced by the religious police of an Islamic country -- a country where Islam is the only allowed religion, I might add -- reflects upon Islam, as does the fact that other Muslims do not decry these things as not Islamic.

By the way, I really do appreciate the fact that you are taking the time to respond to my posts. I think that this is healthy.

Thanks.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dear ozy,

what makes you think that what I am presenting is only my view, and not Islam as a whole?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Article 19 explicitly states that it's a universal human right to exercise free speech without interference. This, along with #1, #2, #3, #5, #10, #12, #18, #20, #27 and #29 are violated every time a terrorist makes a threat, or acts out terrorism -- and this includes the death threats, the attempted arson, and the other terrorist attempts by Muslims upset by a drawing.

Many of those same rights are violated when your religion is forced on others -- and this includes arresting rape victims for 'unlawful sex' or arresting tourists for eating during Ramadan.

Dear ozy,

could you please give references from the Holy Quran to substantiate that these actions are condoned in Islam. Please point out what is happening is really what Muslims have been explicitly taught by Islam.

The only reason why I am putting you on the spot is because you continue to claim that these actions are Islamic. You continue to throw the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in my face.

Please, for honesty's sake, don't throw this back at me by asking me to provide reasoning why it is unIslamic. You are preaching that this is Islam, hence, the onus is on you.

If you can't do it, fine, but just don't throw the "No True Scotsman" fallacy generously.
If you believe that I am guilty of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy then you have to show me where I went wrong.

You must have done your research to conclude that Islam stands against the United Nations Charter of Human Rights, hence please present your case.

[DaNangarharZuwan]

Many of the UN laws are taken from Islam itself.

[ozymandias]

Dear ozy,

what makes you think that what I am presenting is only my view, and not Islam as a whole?

First of all, you are one person -- and a person not 'authorized' to speak for your faith. In fact, the only faith that I can think of that has a single person authorized to speak for the entire faith would be the Catholic Pope -- and even *HE* can only comment on the formal stance of the church, and not the beliefs of individual Catholics.

Second of all, I can point to Muslims that disagree with you, so obviously you do not speak for them.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

First of all, you are one person -- and a person not 'authorized' to speak for your faith. In fact, the only faith that I can think of that has a single person authorized to speak for the entire faith would be the Catholic Pope -- and even *HE* can only comment on the formal stance of the church, and not the beliefs of individual Catholics.

Second of all, I can point to Muslims that disagree with you, so obviously you do not speak for them.

Your latest post is drenched in logical fallacies.

Nonetheless, please present your case. We will have look at your explanations and see.

Dear ozymandias, why do you not want to accept that Islam is a peaceful religion and not what it has been made to look like?

Anyhow, whatever I believe Islam to be is my prerogative, my belief should not stop you or prevent you from presenting your case in favour of your view.

It should not be a hard task--you must have already done the research. Just posted it, dear brother.

You have been holding the loud speaker for a long time, now its time to show proof for all that you have been saying.

[ozymandias]

Dear ozy,

could you please give references from the Holy Quran to substantiate that these actions are condoned in Islam. Please point out what is happening is really what Muslims have been explicitly taught by Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia

"The legal system is based on Sharia (Islamic law), with Shari'a courts basing their judgments largely on a code derived from the Qur'an and the Sunnah"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Propagation_of_Virtue_and_the_Prevention_of_Vice_%28Saudi_Arabia%29

"The Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (abbreviated CPVPV; هيئه الأمر بالمعروف و النهي عن المنكر in Arabic and formerly called the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Elimination of Sin or CAVES) is the English name of the Saudi Arabian government bureaucracy employing "religious police" or mutaween (مطوعين romanized in English) to enforce Sharia Law within that Islamic nation. "

The only reason why I am putting you on the spot is because you continue to claim that these actions are Islamic. You continue to throw the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in my face.

Right. You keep decreeing that since you don't agree with their actions, they are not Islamic, and are disregarding the opinions of many many international scholars.

I, on the other hand, am deferring to those that study these issues for a living.

Please, for honesty's sake, don't throw this back at me by asking me to provide reasoning why it is unIslamic. You are preaching that this is Islam, hence, the onus is on you.

No, I am stating that these people are Islamic, and thus are part of Islam -- and you cannot simply use the No True Scotsman fallacy to turn your back on them.

The onus is on you, as you are going contrary to the presiding academic opinion.

If you can't do it, fine, but just don't throw the "No True Scotsman" fallacy generously.
If you believe that I am guilty of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy then you have to show me where I went wrong.

I have. Repeatedly. These people meet the definition of 'Islamic', thus they are part of Islam. If you reject the dictionary definitions, you have to show why.

You must have done your research to conclude that Islam stands against the United Nations Charter of Human Rights, hence please present your case.

Again, please stop twisting what I have said. Some members of Islam *clearly* violate the charter. I have cited cases where this has happened internationally, and you have to look no farther than this very thread to find Muslims that are willing to violate that charter, personally. I never claimed that all of Islam did so -- you are the one trying to combine all members of Islam into a single monolithic and uniform culture.

You have to remember that a religion is not just what is taught, but what the followers do with what they are taught. You also fail to admit that a religion is not *just* the 'right way' to follow the religion -- it includes any honestly held beliefs that the followers have. This is the very thing that Muslims love to harp on about Christianity -- that the Christian religion has diverged and changed and the Christian religion is flawed. According to your logic, this is not the case -- the Christian religion is still true, and right -- but the followers are not actually Christian, because what they believe is wrong.

I fully admit that these extremists and radicals do not represent the mainstream body of Islam -- but I maintain that they are Islamic.

Besides, why should I take *your word* over *their word* as to who's interpretation of the Koran , Sharia, or Sunnah? Even if we accept that only one interpretation is correct -- you would still have to prove that it is *your* interpretation.

[ozymandias]

Ozy, Islamic rights are wonderful.

what do you think of em?

It depends which Islamic country and which rights you are talking about.

Some of the 'rights' I despise, as well as some of the practices. Some of these violations of human rights seem to go back quite a long way.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I fully admit that these extremists and radicals do not represent the mainstream body of Islam -- but I maintain that they are Islamic.

Bingo!

This is what I have been saying all along.

Case closed.

Now what is left is for me to prove what Islam really is. And I will do this. Just hang in there.

[ozymandias]

Your latest post is drenched in logical fallacies.

Nonetheless, please present your case. We will have look at your explanations and see.

Dear ozymandias, why do you not want to accept that Islam is a peaceful religion and not what it has been made to look like?

While it *can* be peaceful, it is clearly also able to be used for violence.

I also object to your use of the term 'made to look like', as that implies that it is some sort of non-Islamic campaign to smear the image of Islam, while in reality it is the followers of Islam that are opening Islam to the interpretation of non-peaceful.

Anyhow, whatever I believe Islam to be is my prerogative, my belief should not stop you or prevent you from presenting your case in favour of your view.

I never said it has.

It should not be a hard task--you must have already done the research. Just posted it, dear brother.

The hard task appears to be making you admit to what I have already posted.

You have been holding the loud speaker for a long time, now its time to show proof for all that you have been saying.

Don't worry -- I have been, all along. Feel free to go back and read it at your leisure.

[ozymandias]

Bingo!

This is what I have been saying all along.

No, you have been saying that they are not Islamic -- quite different.

Case closed.

Now what is left is for me to prove what Islam really is. And I will do this. Just hang in there.

Feel free to try -- but you have to include *all* the facts, and not just the ones you like.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

The are Muslim, but their actions do not necessarily represent Islam.

Nonetheless, I will present my case, in light of the United Nations Charter of Human Rights--something which you clearly failed to do!

I am glad that we can finally move forward.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

The following is the United Nations Charter of Human Rights, also known as: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 1.

• All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

• Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

• Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

• No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

• No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

• Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

• All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

• Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

• No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

• Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

• (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
• (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

• No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.

• (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
• (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

• (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
• (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

• (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
• (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.

• (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
• (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
• (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.

• (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
• (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.

• Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

• Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

• (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
• (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.

• (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
• (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
• (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.

• Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

• (1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
• (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
• (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
• (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

• Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

• (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
• (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

• (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
• (2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
• (3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.

• (1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
• (2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.

• Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.

• (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
• (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
• (3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.

• Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I will be demonstrating that Islam was far advanced than the whole world over 1430 years ago. I will be looking at each and every article and showing, in light of the Holy Quran, that Islam is not against any one of these articles.

In the end, I hope that those who just want to pick and choose what they want to believe Islam is, rather than what it actually is, will at least have some self dignity, at the least, and not misrepresent Islam anymore because of some radicals and lunatics.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Before we begin, let us look at the purpose of the The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is known as the "Preamble."

PREAMBLE

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,


Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,


Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,


Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,


Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,


Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,


Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.