Evolution contradicts Islam

[Alchemist]

Ah yes,

Apparently you know the Qur'an better than them because you are almost about to get a nobel prize.

Well, what we have established here is that you are a heretic. Literally, you are. Because you believe humans evolved from monkeys.

You use the word Archetype, but you don't even know what it means. Archetype is a word used in analytical psychology and it means it an association, or complexes of ideas and symbols. So calling Adam an archytype would mean that Allah created an "idea" or a "symbol", in His imagination (auzubillah) and that the reality is this Earth, and the events in Paradise with Adam and Hawa were also "symbolic" but never really happened. Perhaps you think it was also a part of Allah's imagination, since shaitan and malaika are also "archytypes" belonging to the unconscious psychology of man and it is meant to represent the contradictory nature of man, in that he is always struggling to become conscious, but not able to master his faculties to his utmost capacity?

Ibn Kathir, Jalalayn were ignorant. Fine ok. The Ahadith Sahih that describes the creation of Adam...meaning, the Holy Prophet peace be upon, he too was ignorant...because he didn't have darwin to tell him what happened. He didn't have you beside him to tell him what's up.

Let's start a new religion, Scimitar. Isn't that what the boy in your avatar was trying to do? Well, now the similarity is undeniable. Perhaps unconsciously you identify with him on a much more deeper level than you think.

Like I said, you are no different than the Qadianies when you start to change the meaning of the Qur'an to fit your own delusions.

Yahdeek Allah.

[ScimitarXEdge]

no no Muhammad(saw) was legit just the individuals who were making largely guess work on certain issues were just not informed and had a bias against science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype

stop your theatricizations please; it won't obscure the debate if that's what you're hoping.

and that's funny because none of my "delusions" are cardinal beliefs of Islam.....but amazingly I'm making a new religion now. What will you grasp for next?

[faye]

archetype sounds perfect in the context used by scimitarx. do you think allah cannot have a visualisation or imagination aand then that comes into existence? i imagne clay to symbolise earth, air, fire and water but in a form which is pliable to represent the formation of beings as matter.
but i don't believe in the evolution theory.

[Alchemist]

^ Well there you have it Prophet Scimitar. The first of your followers.

Still, if you are saying that Muhammed, sala allahu ali wa salam, was in the right, then so were the mufasireen because they are basing their conclusions on the Ahadith. So what about the ahadith where the holy prophet peace be upon him says that Adam was created of clay? And what about the ascension of Muhammed, salla allahu ali wa salam, during Miraj? Do you deny that he went to meet his Lord, riding al buraq? Or do you think it too was "symbolic" and not literal? Because if Mohammad, peace be upon him, can go up, then surely Adam, alihi salam, can come down in the same way. No?

Something else that was running through the back of mind and kept a smile on my face today was what you said in your first post on this thread. How subatomic particles coalesce and form new elements...I am called Alchemist. Scimitar just said I can turn lead into Gold. Transmutation. Evolution. Change of material from one form to another.

No brother, I don't think we humans have "progressed" or "evolved". Our myths are still the same. Our desires are still the same. Our nature is still human, as it was with our father, Adam, alihi salam, so are we the same. Just as then, even now, with a little bit of knowledge we start to believe we know more than the All Knowing. When He sent the Qur'an He knows what "progress" we would have, what cultural changes we would have, so he said - La rayba fehee.

So what is your contention now?
That Adam was a "model"? Was he taught the name of everything by Allah and did he dwell in Heaven? And where was Heaven? I am interested now, because you whole heartedly believe in evolution, so I want to know how the story of Adam fits in your belief system. Please explain. I am not grasping for anything. I am genuinely curious now, because I follow the Ulama, ibn Kathir, ibn Taymiya, Abu Tufail, Ibn Qayuum, Al ghazali, Ibn Rushd, etc etc etc ... and since you are a new age alim, I want to know how you interpret the origin of man, in light of "Science"..the new cultural dynamics.

Thanks.

[faye]

i am not his follower, i am his pet (pet what, he hasn't said) so you haven't been stalking my posts today?

[Toramana]

Kha da chai Al-Chemist aow SE khpalo kai aram di aow munga tha yai pam na dai...

[ScimitarXEdge]

the zany thing is from what it appears, Alchemist and to a certain extent Mujib, are equating the Tafasir of certain scholars as being equivalent to "Kalam-ullah" (word of God). As if their understandings were divinely dictated. They fail to grasp that issues that are in truth outside the realm of Islamic Scholarship, were essentially "guesses". Since many didn't accept science as an expanation, they only leapt to things within their field to understand the verses.

[Alchemist]

the zany thing is from what it appears, Alchemist and to a certain extent Mujib, are equating the Tafasir of certain scholars as being equivalent to "Kalam-ullah" (word of God). As if their understandings were divinely dictated. They fail to grasp that issues that are in truth outside the realm of Islamic Scholarship, were essentially "guesses". Since many didn't accept science as an expanation, they only leapt to things within their field to understand the verses.

first of all scimitar, evolution is not even a science. There is as much guess work in the study of palentology as there is in the study of palmistry.

Secondly, the word of Allah is clear. The example of Jesus to Allah is like the example of Adam, he created him from dust and said to him "be" and he is. You changed the meaning of the words to fit it in with your own guesswork.

Here is a list of translations:

Roman Transliteration of the Arabic Source
Transliteration Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu ⇨
Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning
Muhammad Asad Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is. ⇨ M. M. Pickthall Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. ⇨ Shakir Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was. ⇨ Yusuf Ali The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. ⇨ Wahiduddin Khan Jesus in the sight of God is like Adam. He created him from dust; then said to him, ‘Be!’ and he was. ⇨ [Al-Muntakhab] The example of ‘Isa, as determined by Allah, stood in exact similitude with that of Adam whom He created of dust then ordained that he "Be" and so he was. ⇨ [Progressive Muslims] The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was. ⇨ Abdel Haleem In God’s eyes Jesus is just like Adam: He created him from dust, said to him, ‘Be’, and he was. ⇨ Abdul Majid Daryabadi Verily the likeness of 'lsa with Allah is as the likeness of Adam: him He created out of dust, thereafter He said unto him: Be, and lo! he becometh. ⇨ Ahmed Ali That Jesus' example at God (is) as Adam's example, (He) created him from dust/earth then He said to him: "Be." So he became. ⇨ Aisha Bewley The likeness of ‘Isa in Allah’s sight is the same as Adam. He created him from earth and then He said to him, ‘Be!’ and he was. ⇨ Ali Ünal (The creation of) Jesus in reference to God resembles (the creation of) Adam. He created him from earth, then said He to him, "Be!" and he is. ⇨ Ali Quli Qara'i Indeed the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was. ⇨ Amatul Rahman Omar Verily, the case of Jesus is as the case of Adam in the sight of Allah. He fashioned him out of dust, then He said to him,`Be', and he came to be. ⇨ Hamid S. Aziz Verily the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him: BE! And he was; ⇨ Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali Surely the likeness of Isa (Jesus) in the Providence of Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He Allah) created him of dust, thereafter He said to him, "Be!" so he is (i.e., he was). ⇨ Muhammad Sarwar To God the case of Jesus is as that of Adam whom He created from the earth and then said, "Exist," and Adam came into existence. ⇨ Muhammad Taqi Usmani Surely, the case of ‘Isa , in the sight of Allah, is like the case of ‘Edam . He created him from dust, then He said to him, .Be., and he came to be. ⇨ Shabbir Ahmed Verily, with Allah, the example or nature of Jesus is that of Adam (the other humans) who were initially created from dust and then evolved through different stages of life (22:5), (30:20)). He created mankind beginning from hydrated inorganic matter, then He said unto him, "Be! And he is." (The process of procreation of the humans goes on, "IS"). ⇨ Syed Vickar Ahamed Truly, before Allah, the similitude of Isa (Jesus) is like that of Adam; He (Allah) created him from dust, then said to him: "Be", and he became. ⇨ Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. ⇨ Farook Malik In fact, the example of the birth of Jesus ( Jesus) in the sight of Allah is like the example of Adam who had no father and mother, whom He created out of dust, then said to him: "Be" and he was. ⇨ Dr. Munir Munshey Indeed, according to Allah, the matter of (the birth of) Jesus is similar to the example of (the creation of) Adam; He created Adam from dust and said, "Be!" Thus, he became! ⇨
Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works
Bijan Moeinian The creation of Jesus (being born without the intervention of a male) is like the creation of Adam (who was created without any father.) I (God) created Adam’s body from the dirt and then said: “Be” and here he was. ⇨ Faridul Haque The example of Eisa with Allah is like that of Adam; He created him (Adam) from clay and then said to him, “Be” - and it thereupon happens! ⇨ Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah Truly, the likeness of (Prophet) Jesus with Allah, is as the likeness of Adam, He created him from dust then He said to him "Be" and he was. ⇨ Maulana Muhammad Ali The likeness of Jesus with Allah is truly as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was. ⇨ Muhammad Ahmed - Samira For God the likeness of Jesus is as that of Adam whom He fashioned out of dust and said "Be" and he was. ⇨ Sher Ali Surely the case of Jesus is like the case of Adam. HE created him out of dust, then he said to him, "Be', and he was. ⇨ Yusuf Ali (org.) The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. ⇨ Rashad Khalifa The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. ⇨
Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
Arthur John Arberry Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was. ⇨ Edward Henry Palmer Verily the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him BE, and he was;- ⇨ George Sale Verily the likeness of Jesus in the sight of God, is as the likeness of Adam: He created him out of the dust, and then said unto him, be; and he was. ⇨ John Medows Rodwell Verily, Jesus is as Adam in the sight of God. He created him of dust: He then said to him, "Be" - and he was.


none of them use the word "ANALOGY"


Again, you failed to give a direct answer to the question, where did the other half of the information (DNA materia) necessary for the creation of a being come from, in the womb of Maryam (aliha salam)?

Ajeeb! You say that the cases are different between Adam and Jesus's creation?

Are you going to be like mountain goat and keep saying the same thing over and over and over? Will you not accept what the rest of the ummah accepts? Then in that case, you are a heretic, by definition because you go against established tenants of Islam based on the Qur'an - the holy prophet peace be upon has said that the ummah will remain on consensus
on the major articles of faith.
What about the hadith sahih where the angel of death is said to have come to earth to gather clay for the creation of Adam? You call it a fabrication? A misunderstanding?
Minha khalaqnakum wafeeha nuAAeedukum waminha nukhrijukum taratan okhra (20:55)

Is this what you meant by "Agnostic Theist"? Is this why you can't answer any of my questions?

[ScimitarXEdge]

a·nal·o·gy   
[uh-nal-uh-jee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -gies.
1.
a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2.
similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3.
Biology . an analogous relationship

Origin:
1530–40; < Latin analogia < Greek. See analogous, -y3

—Synonyms
1. comparison, likeness, resemblance, similitude, affinity. 2. correspondence.

[Baygham]

i am glad this lord of yours is also merciful. a lot of that is needed.

Once you have him/her properly neutered, like some of these european constitutional monarchs, things get a lot more benign and merciful.

[ScimitarXEdge]

first of all scimitar, evolution is not even a science. There is as much guess work in the study of palentology as there is in the study of palmistry.

Evolution isn't a science, it is a concept within the science of biology. It is based and derived from science. How exactly would it be like "palmistry", where does palmistry use experimental means to come to it's conclusions?

It appears your conundrum is derived from a sheer lack of competency in basic science. Would you and Mujib submit to taking a short examination on basic chemistry, biology and physics? Inform me if you do. I think at this juncture it would be valuable to see if you even understand the science behind the subject.

Secondly, the word of Allah is clear. The example of Jesus to Allah is like the example of Adam, he created him from dust and said to him "be" and he is. You changed the meaning of the words to fit it in with your own guesswork.

Here is a list of translations:

What astonishes me is you go from saying "The word of Allah(swt) is clear"; and use a fallacy of equivocation to assert that Adam(as)'s earthly/fleshy existence is exactly the same as 'Isa(as)'s. Yet, almost all the other verses, use "likeness", similitude, similar. Further breaking down this concrete claim of your rendering being" THE Word of God".

none of them use the word "ANALOGY"

Analogy | Define Analogy at Dictionary.com

then take a look back at all the translations you posted

Again, you failed to give a direct answer to the question, where did the other half of the information (DNA materia) necessary for the creation of a being come from, in the womb of Maryam (aliha salam)?

Ajeeb! You say that the cases are different between Adam and Jesus's creation?

Even your Tafir Ibn Kathir says this; albeit from a different angle. Carefully read the references you posted.

Are you going to be like mountain goat and keep saying the same thing over and over and over? Will you not accept what the rest of the ummah accepts? Then in that case, you are a heretic, by definition because you go against established tenants of Islam based on the Qur'an - the holy prophet peace be upon has said that the ummah will remain on consensus
on the major articles of faith.

The problem with Muslims is that they stopped focusing on the truth, and more on what the majority says, but as people who seek knowledge, it should dawn on us that the majority=/= truth. There are no TENETS of Islam which requires me to believe Adam(as) was LITERALLY by mounds of clay, nor even that Isa(as) was literally born of a virgin woman, although I do entertain a supernatural possibility that this is very well true. There's also no Islamic TENET requiring that to be a believing Muslim I have to believe so. This is merely the exploitation of dogma when one fails at proposing an argument rationally.

What about the hadith sahih where the angel of death is said to have come to earth to gather clay for the creation of Adam? You call it a fabrication? A misunderstanding?

not fabrication, but if God created man ex-nihilo, as you say, then a LITERAL understanding of such a thing would be absurd. It is metaphoric.

[/U]Is this what you meant by "Agnostic Theist"? Is this why you can't answer any of my questions?

Because whatever answer I give you won't accept, hence you feel I haven't answered your question.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Here's a challenge for Alchemist

There's a hadith that says "I was a Prophet when Adam(as) was between water and clay" the more common rendering is "I was a Prophet when Adam was between spirit and body".

How was Muhammad(saw) a Prophet if Adam(as) was the first physical man?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Kha da chai Al-Chemist aow SE khpalo kai aram di aow munga tha yai pam na dai...

parwah neshta da tolo ta pam yum.... I can multi task

[Alchemist]

A challenge?

Don't make me laugh bro. The answer to your challenge will further challenge your own heretical beliefs.

let's back track a bit. I think I have lost you.

When you say something like this:

" Surely Isa's analogy of God's sight/eye is such as the analogy of Adam."

I have to make sure you know that Isa and Adam are not "mere analogies". I just wanted to clarify that for you because else where you said this:

We know from linguistic understanding of Arabic that idioms are used in the Qur'an and use of their analogical properties we can distinguish which verses are literal and which are not. A verse like "all living things were created from water" is literal, A clay Adam, is figurative. Even when we deal with the idea of God's will, the Arabic does not indicate that it must be understood in the way you portray...

even the use of the word "mathala" shows that this is all merely an analogy....

Isa/Hawwa (as) are being described of in the Qur'an in an archtypal sense and then the Earthly sense, in which they represent the manifestation of homosapiens as a species. The "formation" was merely a blue print or model, it was the Model of Isa which Allah(swt) made first and then the earthly last.

My shoe is analogous to a car's tire but my shoe is not like a car's tire. English is a stupid language. Which is why stupid arguments always arise just because of it's limitations. You are not as sharp as you think you are Scimitar but I tread much more carefully on the razor's edge so I try make the clarifications and sometimes I get ahead of myself not knowing everyone isn't as careful as me. No need for you to copy and paste definitions of words or list fallacies, I am well aware of their uses. And you won't catch me falling for any.

Case in point. You are running two contrary arguments, one against me and the other against baygham. On the one hand you keep telling him that Allah can break His own Laws, but then you tell me that our creation must be within the laws of universe.

Then you give examples like this:

where he says "he made all life out of water"; we're alive so the clay, so do these stories contradict? Because clay isn't "water", so either the story can't be literal or the Qur'an contadicts itself.

Clay = water + dirt. It is not a contradiction.

You are saying that I am contradicting myself because creation from dust is not creation ex nihilo?

19:67: "But does man not bear in mind that We have created him aforetime out of nothing?"

I have on my side the words of Allah. You have what?

I have a background in science and reasonable lay familiarity with Islamic Theology, at least in so much as Mu'tazilism is concerned.There is volumes of biochemistry journals that demonstrate how evolution occurs. The irony of how you abjure Lay to speak on matters of religion; when you appearingly have no formal training in any science, and yet speak of incoherence?

Brother, your background is in geology, the study of rocks. My background is in science, biology. I know this better than you. Trust me. In truth the biochemical journals contradict evolution. So if you dared, go to the science forums, the thread is still open and let's see who is on the right on the sciences of evolution. Frankly, mountain goat needs some help and I am just starting to get bored of him.

No brother. The real irony is that you don't even have a lay familiarty with Islamic theology because you say things like:

Angels aren't organismal beings neither are Jinn,

Oh you didn't know? Jin eat food. They reproduce, though they live longer lives. They have families too. Features of "living organisms".

There are no TENETS of Islam which requires me to believe Adam(as) was LITERALLY by mounds of clay, nor even that Isa(as) was literally born of a virgin woman, although I do entertain a supernatural possibility that this is very well true.

The Tenants of Islam are described in the Qur'an.

You are "entertaining" the possibility but not believing it to be true.

why aren't Humans Literally a product of silicates which are in clay?

Surely you can entertain this possibility too then?
Graham Cairns-Smith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you see, clay can also be held in the literal sense, as you hold evolution in the literal sense. We are just talking of possibilities after all since you can't have a firm believe in it.

It appears your conundrum is derived from a sheer lack of competency in basic science. Would you and Mujib submit to taking a short examination on basic chemistry, biology and physics? Inform me if you do. I think at this juncture it would be valuable to see if you even understand the science behind the subjec

lol. You? teach me science? Who do you think you are? Let's do it ScimitarXEdge.

Here's a challenge for Alchemist

There's a hadith that says "I was a Prophet when Adam(as) was between water and clay" the more common rendering is "I was a Prophet when Adam was between spirit and body".

How was Muhammad(saw) a Prophet if Adam(as) was the first physical man?

There has come to you a Light from Allah, and a Manifest Book.(Quran 5:15)

The Ulama and Mufasareen are clear on this. The light refers to Muhammed, sallallahu Alihi Wa salam. However, you being a heretic might have trouble accepting this.

Else where Allah has said:

And lo, We took from the prophets their covenant, and from you, and Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus son of Mary; and We took from them a momentous covenant.(Quran 33:7)

Nothing Allah, suphanahu wa tala, says is without any reason. Every word of the Quran is precisely where it is for a reason. The order of the prophets named, do you notice?

It is mentioned in another hadith...

"I was the first of the Prophets to be created and the last of them to be sent."

You have difficulty accepting these ahadith? I am telling you, you haven't come far from your days as a Shamla Khrasnai.

Please read this article before you form an opinion on my answer:
New Page 0

How about this verse:

And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." (Al A'raf 172)

You believe this happened or not? This was before Adam's descent.

[randolph85]

how does the verse about all life being from water figure into the debate?