Evolution contradicts Islam

[ScimitarXEdge]

how does the verse about all life being from water figure into the debate?

I mentioned that already; but of course those who are addicted to the dogmatism of Shayukh who are blinded by animosity for science, refuse to address that.

[Alchemist]

I mentioned that already; but of course those who are addicted to the dogmatism of Shayukh who are blinded by animosity for science, refuse to address that.

and you are addicted the dogmatism of professors?


come on scimitar...

kor e khud benoy mardom?

[Alchemist]

hahahaha

you just keep contradicting your self eh

Didn't you admit that evolution is not a science but a concept?

now you are saying that the shuyukh have animosity towards the sciences?

What sciences? You keep saying "Evolutionary markers" ...do you even know what that means? Are you even aware of the process used to discern "markers"? We are talking about billions of nucleotides! Ever changing locations, never the same between the same species...and you keep saying "aggregating like a computer program" ...when my computer "aggregates on information" ...it crashes! I have to reformat my computer because of all the clutter of information that have gone out of place. Are you kidding me? I just keep thinking about some of the things you say and I laugh.

It seems that we have a lot that we disagree on. From a political perspective, from a scientific perspective and even a theological perspective. Still, La illaha illa allah muhammadun rasulul allah!

Salam.

[ScimitarXEdge]

let's back track a bit. I think I have lost you.

My shoe is analogous to a car's tire but my shoe is not like a car's tire. English is a stupid language. Which is why stupid arguments always arise just because of it's limitations....... [irrelevant self boastful interlude].... No need for you to copy and paste definitions of words or list fallacies, I am well aware of their uses. And you won't catch me falling for any.

Firstly, pomp does not make up for logical/meritable arguments, so please leave your self aggrandizements out and address the material. Second if you stopped for a moment to actually read your translation references and the definitions of the word analogy, you'd observe that they're synonyms to the words being used by the translator. Which indicates you have committed Equivocation, and based on what we can observe the meaning being taken is not a Literal 1-to-1 Mapping Correspondence which you appear to allude to; but comparing the nature's of 'Isa(as) and Adam(as) as both mortal men, made of the earthly substances. In fact in Arabic language, "turab" refers to earthly matter. Check a classical Arabic dictionary for the lexical uses of this word.
http://qamoos.sakhr.com/SearchResults.aspx

Such was to demonstrate that Adam(as) and "Isa(as) were both men and made of earth's components. And come to think of it may in fact allude to the notion that 'Isa's birth was metaphorically described rather than literal. However, I still entertain the possibility of direct miraculous event, so long as we don't have any concrete evidence either way on this particular subject. Allah 3alim.

Case in point. You are running two contrary arguments, one against me and the other against baygham. On the one hand you keep telling him that Allah can break His own Laws, but then you tell me that our creation must be within the laws of universe.

No, Actually you're making a distorted caricature of my argument and then taking that caricature and comparing it with Baygham's arguments. In essence the contradiction is your comprehension and Baygham's. Both of you appear to have espoused extremely shallow understandings from both angles.

For me no such contradiction exists; Allah(swt) can cause and govern evolution, and still be a sovereign creator, not bound or limited by the Laws he Causes. I fully believe God CAN create Ex-Nihilo. But DOES HE? That is the question. In certain cases, like the existence of EXISTENCE itself (the tautology was intentional) of course he does, for human beings, No he does not. This is not binding Allah(swt) by laws that he creates but rather shows how his Creation reflects his Imprint, and the evidence from his creation shows gradual development in so much as the finite boundaries of time within our universe; for Allah(swt) all of existence is laid out before him, not even a moment passes for Allah(swt), the beginning and end are one. And this is something the mathematics of Quantum Mechanics alludes to as well, that there is a state in which all events are simultaneous instead of sequential but only "collapse" into sequence when time/space conditions are placed. If we follow the God hypothesis, then God would have that level of vantage, while we and other entities experience it in sequence.

Then you give examples like this:

Clay = water + dirt. It is not a contradiction.

What this demonstrates is your lack of competence in basic science. Clay is not merely dirt. Although Dirt and Clay form the same way. Clay is the product of deposition of siliciate minerals

You are saying that I am contradicting myself because creation from dust is not creation ex nihilo?

19:67: "But does man not bear in mind that We have created him aforetime out of nothing?"

I have on my side the words of Allah. You have what?

I also have Allah(swt)'s words

أَوَلاَ يَذْكُرُ ٱلإِنسَٰنُ أَنَّا خَلَقْنَاهُ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَمْ يَكُ شَيْئاً

that is the verse in Arabic; it says " inna khalaqnahu min qabelo wa lamo yako shaya"

It doesn't mean "nothing" as in he just appeared, it means " and he was nothing a thing", meaning he was not an object, a physical entity.

This is referring to the Day of Judgement when our bodies will be reformed. It doesn't mean he was made "ex-nihilo".

Brother, your background is in geology, the study of rocks. My background is in science, biology. I know this better than you. Trust me. In truth the biochemical journals contradict evolution. So if you dared, go to the science forums, the thread is still open and let's see who is on the right on the sciences of evolution. Frankly, mountain goat needs some help and I am just starting to get bored of him.

Wrong again; this shows how you don't listen to others and merely paint your own picture on everything. My background is ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE. It is an interdisciplinary field Encompassing, Physics, Chemistry, BIOLOGY (specifically ecology and paleontology) and geology.

From what I remember you telling me, you studied Psychology, your degree is in Psych, which is a soft science, and not biology centered. You may have taken some biology, perhaps; but I doubt anything scientifically rigorous as your arguments suggest.

Even look at your response here "trust me", no one says "trust me" as a means of proof. Demonstrate a SINGLE PEER REVIEWED Journal in Biochemistry which rejects the Theory of Evolution?

No brother. The real irony is that you don't even have a lay familiarty with Islamic theology because you say things like:

Oh I do and one reason I'm Mu'tazili now and not apart of the Ahl Al-Sunnah wal Jam'ah is because of studying it's crooked History of how it came about. It''s really a mafia/cartel, who ever has the power to propogate their views is deemed "right", hence book burnings/destructions.

I am familiar with the 'Ashari creed, Maturidi (which I was raised in) and Athari. These people arrived at guess work and found if they took things literally there would be IMMENSE contradictions; so what they did is invent an idea of "majaziyah" i.e. modality and said "don't question it". This is not an indication of genuine quest for truth, but sheer intellectual laziness. And probably a cause of Muslim stagnancy.

Oh you didn't know? Jin eat food. They reproduce, though they live longer lives. They have families too. Features of "living organisms".

But they lack one crucial feature, cellular metabolism. Last we checked smokeless green fire, does not undergo cellular metabolism.

The Tenants of Islam are described in the Qur'an.

You are "entertaining" the possibility but not believing it to be true.

Surely you can entertain this possibility too then?
Graham Cairns-Smith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well there is evidence that it could be metaphoric, could be literal. I opt for miraculous until I see evidence it wasn't.

I could entertain the possibility of the clay form of abiogenesis in fact, that would make sense in the Qur'ans vantage and would only verify evolution as being Qur'anically compatible not disparage it.

So you see, clay can also be held in the literal sense, as you hold evolution in the literal sense. We are just talking of possibilities after all since you can't have a firm believe in it.

If it was held in the Literal sense then it means God literally had hands which touched clay and played around in clay. Anthropomorphism again. Sorry, it can't be literal if God stands outside the forces of time and space.

lol. You? teach me science? Who do you think you are? Let's do it ScimitarXEdge.

Ok great, I'll make up a short test which I will send to you in PDF form, the Questions will be 20 and they will cover basic topics of organic, general and biochemistry, selecting concepts which relate directly to how macro evolution occurs. It will only serve to demonstrate if you actually understand what's even being discussed or merely spouting Harun Yahya silliness.

There has come to you a Light from Allah, and a Manifest Book.(Quran 5:15)

The Ulama and Mufasareen are clear on this. The light refers to Muhammed, sallallahu Alihi Wa salam. However, you being a heretic might have trouble accepting this.

That's exactly it, you're following what other people have said without checking it's validity. This is why blind following is absurd. I'm not saying Ulama have no place, but taking an Ulama's word as "what God said" is absurd if there's nothing more concrete to back it up.

and using the constant "heretic" card for black mail purposes is a silly tactic. It won't work on me.

Else where Allah has said:

And lo, We took from the prophets their covenant, and from you, and Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus son of Mary; and We took from them a momentous covenant.(Quran 33:7)

Nothing Allah, suphanahu wa tala, says is without any reason. Every word of the Quran is precisely where it is for a reason. The order of the prophets named, do you notice?

It is mentioned in another hadith...

"I was the first of the Prophets to be created and the last of them to be sent."

You have difficulty accepting these ahadith? I am telling you, you haven't come far from your days as a Shamla Khrasnai.

My days as who? You're the one who Invited me to this forum; I would never have cared to jon if it wasn't for you. So please save your paranoid absurdities.

These verses do not "answer" my challenge; they only mean that Nabi(saw) is lineally descended from these Prophets(saw).

And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." (Al A'raf 172)

You believe this happened or not? This was before Adam's descent.

This verse is proving my point; of course I believe it; now can you answer how I'm claiming it's proving my point?

Think back to my other arguments in the thread.

[ScimitarXEdge]

hahahaha

you just keep contradicting your self eh

Didn't you admit that evolution is not a science but a concept?

now you are saying that the shuyukh have animosity towards the sciences?

What sciences? You keep saying "Evolutionary markers" ...do you even know what that means? Are you even aware of the process used to discern "markers"? We are talking about billions of nucleotides! Ever changing locations, never the same between the same species...and you keep saying "aggregating like a computer program" ...when my computer "aggregates on information" ...it crashes! I have to reformat my computer because of all the clutter of information that have gone out of place. Are you kidding me? I just keep thinking about some of the things you say and I laugh.

It seems that we have a lot that we disagree on. From a political perspective, from a scientific perspective and even a theological perspective. Still, La illaha illa allah muhammadun rasulul allah!

Salam.

You're playing with words; it's a concept IN science, it's not a science in itself it's APART of a science. So yes it's animosity towards Science since they reject things on the basis that such things are derived by ACTUAL PHYSICAL variables rather than some shallow interpretation OF God's word, (not God's word itself mind you).

You seem to have the typical obtuse comprehension of people who merely latch onto dogma.

Yes you're right in an OUTDATED system aggregation of information would cause the system to crash. But that's why NEW systems are released which process more information and can perform more functions. EVOLUTION, except this one is not Natural Selection, but Artificial Selection. Same occurs to our chromosomes. A New information backup occurs. Yes billions of nucleotides, Nature has shown how ingenius Allah(swt) is and shows how Allah(swt) the absolute is a Master of Combinatorics (by the way I have a friend who's doing a PHD thesis on DNA Combinatorics it's absolutely fascinating), and finds efficient ways to interloop these nucleotides to encompass Chromosomes, another feature of evolution.

[kakargirl]

Alchemist wror and Edge wror two best friends having the best debate between them civilized like a debate should be .lol

[ScimitarXEdge]

Alchemist wror and Edge wror two best friends having the best debate between them civilized like a debate should be .lol

Other than Alchemist playing Witchhunter and labeling me a heretic and other frankly hostile allusions, I guess so.

[kakargirl]

Other than Alchemist playing Witchhunter and labeling me a heretic and other frankly hostile allusions, I guess so.

Alchemist wror is your loyal friend , lol i know edge wror your trying to break the nazar dont worry il prayer your friendship stays strong lol now stop saying Alchemist wror is a witchhunter lol ,your both professional intelligent.

[Alchemist]

Firstly, pomp does not make up for logical/meritable arguments, so please leave your self aggrandizements out and address the material. Second if you stopped for a moment to actually read your translation references and the definitions of the word analogy, you'd observe that they're synonyms to the words being used by the translator. Which indicates you have committed Equivocation, and based on what we can observe the meaning being taken is not a Literal 1-to-1 Mapping Correspondence which you appear to allude to; but comparing the nature's of 'Isa(as) and Adam(as) as both mortal men, made of the earthly substances. In fact in Arabic language, "turab" refers to earthly matter. Check a classical Arabic dictionary for the lexical uses of this word.
http://qamoos.sakhr.com/SearchResults.aspx

My problem is not with the arabic.
It is with your English.

Because you used words like "physical" vs "non physical" and "archeytype" vs "Earthly". It is really confusing because you didn't answer me on your opinions about ISra and Miraj and I don't know what you mean you say Adam on earth is different than the Adam that is referenced by Allah...the Adam that was in heaven. Anyway. Let it be. This is not really relevant to our case because your next statement pretty much ends our debate on this particular verse in your next paragraph.

Another problem I have with you, is that you rationalize the Qur'an to fit your own ideas, a priori.

For example, earlier you quoted for me surah Nuh-14 to 15 and you meant to use it as evidence for "evolution". However, all the mufaseerin and ulama and even translators of Qur'an know that the context used for "stages" is of the stages of your own individual creation. Like I said, you keep trying to merge individual development with evolution. You are not the first. Many evolutionists initially believed in the phrase "ontology recapitulates phylogeny". But as our understanding of development increased with the aid of technological developments, we learned that this is not the case and now rarely will you find evolutionists singing this mantra. However, you do. It is clear that the stages that Allah refers to here is the stages of growth, from zygote, to blastula, to morula, to embroyo, to fetus, to infant, to child etc., since Allah has explained this in other verses of the Qur'an like wise. Also, if you read the verse in it's full context, you will note that Allah is calling individual man to look at himself and be grateful for all that thing's he has had as an individual. It also happens to have the same ayat, in surah nuh, where Allah says he has made the earth flat, so that you could go about it, but you mocked Mujib's understanding of it. In reality we do grow from the earth, as we eat the vegetation that sprouts from it, and when we die, we turn to dust again. You take this to mean something more abstract as evolution...that man was created as unicellular organism, bacteria, then an invertebrate, that swam in the sea, then a lizard, then a bird and a mammal, and then a human being. Isn't that more absurd?

Such was to demonstrate that Adam(as) and "Isa(as) were both men and made of earth's components. And come to think of it may in fact allude to the notion that 'Isa's birth was metaphorically described rather than literal. However, I still entertain the possibility of direct miraculous event, so long as we don't have any concrete evidence either way on this particular subject. Allah 3alim.

So basically you deny the Miraculous Conception of Isa?

You know Allah could have said that Isa is like any other human being, why make the comparison SPECIFICALLY to Adam?

You deny that the common factor between Adam and Jesus (peace be upon them) is the fact that neither of them have a father?

You deny that the Qur'an itself is a direct evidence of the miraculous birth?

This makes me wonder whether you believe in any of the miracles performed by Issa ibn Maryam even?

You still haven't said where the necessary information for the formation of a zygote could come from? It is impossible for a female's germ line to produce both the egg and the sperm! So creation ex nihilo fits the case. But you say that man has to be created from something. So what was that thing that Jesus was created out of? It can't be some food she ate. It could only be said the the 23 set of chromosomes necessary appeared out no where by Allah's will. So answer me, where did it come from otherwise?

This makes me wonder...

Do you believe that Mosa's stick turned to a snake when he threw it?
Do you believe that Isa ibn Maryam molded clay and by the permission of Allah brought it to life?

"Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave." (Quran 3:49)

How can you doubt the creation of Adam out of clay?

No, Actually you're making a distorted caricature of my argument and then taking that caricature and comparing it with Baygham's arguments. In essence the contradiction is your comprehension and Baygham's. Both of you appear to have espoused extremely shallow understandings from both angles.

Look who is boasting of the depth of their own understanding, in whose comparison we swim in the shallows.

For me no such contradiction exists; Allah(swt) can cause and govern evolution, and still be a sovereign creator, not bound or limited by the Laws he Causes. I fully believe God CAN create Ex-Nihilo. But DOES HE? That is the question. In certain cases, like the existence of EXISTENCE itself (the tautology was intentional) of course he does, for human beings, No he does not. This is not binding Allah(swt) by laws that he creates but rather shows how his Creation reflects his Imprint, and the evidence from his creation shows gradual development in so much as the finite boundaries of time within our universe; for Allah(swt) all of existence is laid out before him, not even a moment passes for Allah(swt), the beginning and end are one. And this is something the mathematics of Quantum Mechanics alludes to as well, that there is a state in which all events are simultaneous instead of sequential but only "collapse" into sequence when time/space conditions are placed. If we follow the God hypothesis, then God would have that level of vantage, while we and other entities experience it in sequence.

Let's not bring Quantum MEchanics. Frankly, Scimitar, you are no expert on the field, neither am I.

Secondly, it's not a "God Hypothesis".

We both agreed that there is some sequence of event in creation. However, you are the one that claims to know the how, where as I am saying, it is the ilm of Ghaib. This is unseen knowledge. Here I admit that my understanding is shallow (compared to Allah's knowledge! its not even a tear drop in 7 oceans). You, on the other hand, seem to think that you know how Allah creates life. I only believe what Allah Himself says in the Qur'an. "Created the heavens and earth in six days, suma istawa 3allal arsh" And that is it. We can't add anything out of our own whims.

What this demonstrates is your lack of competence in basic science. Clay is not merely dirt. Although Dirt and Clay form the same way. Clay is the product of deposition of siliciate minerals

OK, so I am incompetent in basic sciences. This is what you want to prove here?

I also have Allah(swt)'s words

أَوَلاَ يَذْكُرُ ٱلإِنسَٰنُ أَنَّا خَلَقْنَاهُ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَمْ يَكُ شَيْئاً

that is the verse in Arabic; it says " inna khalaqnahu min qabelo wa lamo yako shaya"

It doesn't mean "nothing" as in he just appeared, it means " and he was nothing a thing", meaning he was not an object, a physical entity.

This is referring to the Day of Judgement when our bodies will be reformed. It doesn't mean he was made "ex-nihilo".

it means "he was nothing a thing"

Well, if it means he was not a physical thing, then it means, no thing. You just don't want to admit you are wrong, but you just reiterated what I said. What's the problem?

Wrong again; this shows how you don't listen to others and merely paint your own picture on everything. My background is ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE. It is an interdisciplinary field Encompassing, Physics, Chemistry, BIOLOGY (specifically ecology and paleontology) and geology.

OK. Environmental science. Just leave at that.
You are not familiar with microbiology or genetics or evolution, so don't act like it's your forte.

From what I remember you telling me, you studied Psychology, your degree is in Psych, which is a soft science, and not biology centered. You may have taken some biology, perhaps; but I doubt anything scientifically rigorous as your arguments suggest.

LOL
Neurobehavioural Psychology and biology. In layman's term "study of the brain." Do you know of anything more complex than the human brain?
As a matter of fact I took a whole course on evolution and a couple on genetics. Some in biochemistry, cellular biology (one for just the nucleas and one for all else), anatomy, physiology etc etc. I told you brah, I got money on my mind so I put school on hold. "as your argument's suggest" lol .. what about your arguments? What has been scientific about your arguments so far?

Even look at your response here "trust me", no one says "trust me" as a means of proof. Demonstrate a SINGLE PEER REVIEWED Journal in Biochemistry which rejects the Theory of Evolution?

wow. So confident.

Well I did brah. Go to the "Evolution, why us". I quoted a peer reviewed journal that showed the impossibility of there ever being a unicellular organism so simple enough to be an ancestor of both prokaryotes and eukaryotes. I posted A LOT of evidences there but you just never bothered to counter any of them. You left the reigns to goat mountain... I guess his counters were to your satisfaction?

Oh I do and one reason I'm Mu'tazili now and not apart of the Ahl Al-Sunnah wal Jam'ah is because of studying it's crooked History of how it came about. It''s really a mafia/cartel, who ever has the power to propogate their views is deemed "right", hence book burnings/destructions.

Well I think "ahlul sunnah wal jamma" is historically propaganda and politics. But I am not calling myself a "Mu'tazali". Should I?

I am familiar with the 'Ashari creed, Maturidi (which I was raised in) and Athari. These people arrived at guess work and found if they took things literally there would be IMMENSE contradictions; so what they did is invent an idea of "majaziyah" i.e. modality and said "don't question it". This is not an indication of genuine quest for truth, but sheer intellectual laziness. And probably a cause of Muslim stagnancy.

Some things you can't question and it has nothing to do with intellectual laziness. Even Allah forbade the prophet to speak on certain questions that were raised to him. Do you know of the prayer "Allahuma la taj3al al dunia akbara hamina wa la mablagha 3lmina"?

Muslim Stagnancy could have come about for a number of reasons and that is a totally different issue. Just because we have fallen out of Allah's grace doesn't mean we should reform our Aqeedah and then change the meaning of the words of Allah. Western Civilization is now coming to a decline also, but they are not even religious, so what is their fault?

But they lack one crucial feature, cellular metabolism. Last we checked smokeless green fire, does not undergo cellular metabolism.

Neither does clay, so what's your point?

Still, if they don't undergo "cellular metabolism", then why do they eat?

Well there is evidence that it could be metaphoric, could be literal. I opt for miraculous until I see evidence it wasn't.

And what kind of evidence are you waiting for?
Theological or scientific?

I could entertain the possibility of the clay form of abiogenesis in fact, that would make sense in the Qur'ans vantage and would only verify evolution as being Qur'anically compatible not disparage it.

So basically, from your perspective, Qur'an is subordinated to Science?

If it was held in the Literal sense then it means God literally had hands which touched clay and played around in clay. Anthropomorphism again. Sorry, it can't be literal if God stands outside the forces of time and space.

But we already discussed this.

Allah himself uses Anthropomorphism, so what's wrong with that? He says he has hands, and he says he has Wahj. We already discussed this.

Ok great, I'll make up a short test which I will send to you in PDF form, the Questions will be 20 and they will cover basic topics of organic, general and biochemistry, selecting concepts which relate directly to how macro evolution occurs. It will only serve to demonstrate if you actually understand what's even being discussed or merely spouting Harun Yahya silliness.

Sure buddy.
Should I use a black pen?

That's exactly it, you're following what other people have said without checking it's validity. This is why blind following is absurd. I'm not saying Ulama have no place, but taking an Ulama's word as "what God said" is absurd if there's nothing more concrete to back it up.

So you are saying that ahadith are wrong, Ulama are wrong...and I should only follow your interpretation of the Qur'an?

Ajeeb.

How can you be so sure of your self? You seem to think you are infallible because you are ALWAYS rational. But it could also be that you are always rationalizing.
Try imagining your self arguing with Donald Rumsfeld for instance. Do you think you could convince him that his foreign policy was flawed? You claim to be the expert, so you can make the problem, and then you can give your own solution to the problem, which is it self also a part of the problem. Rather the problem is with the way you think. Apparently no one can tell you otherwise because you know it better?
The mufasseerin, the great ulama of a deen, they don't know, but you know? The muhaditheen don't know, but you know?

and using the constant "heretic" card for black mail purposes is a silly tactic. It won't work on me.

What is a heretic?


"anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle."

You said it yourself.

My days as who? You're the one who Invited me to this forum; I would never have cared to jon if it wasn't for you. So please save your paranoid absurdities.

I am not paranoid at all. I just remember reading one of your posts where you said that you use to have an extremist attitude towards certain issues and that some other members here reminded you of your bygone days. I simply meant to say, that to an extent, you still are extreme.

These verses do not "answer" my challenge; they only mean that Nabi(saw) is lineally descended from these Prophets(saw).

Yeah, "lineally descended."

that is a part of your answer. You can't accept that? I asked you to read that link where At tirmidy wrote on "lawla muhammad ma khalqna al arda wa ma fiha". No comments on it so I guess you didn't.

This verse is proving my point; of course I believe it; now can you answer how I'm claiming it's proving my point?

Think back to my other arguments in the thread.

Well, in your other arguments you make some weird suggestions. Like how Adam was not created out of clay in reality, but that some blue print design of him was made. So I don't know how that verse would relate to the same events. That it was also blue prints? And the story is just metaphorical? I guess, by this you mean that all the Ahadith that are collected are a) bogus b) the prophet peace be upon him was always speaking in metaphors. Kind of like how some psychologists compare the ancient mythologies of different societies and find "Archetypes" that are present in all those stores. That the Qur'an too is just another book of mythology? Oh..I am putting words in your mouth? Ops.

You're playing with words; it's a concept IN science, it's not a science in itself it's APART of a science. So yes it's animosity towards Science since they reject things on the basis that such things are derived by ACTUAL PHYSICAL variables rather than some shallow interpretation OF God's word, (not God's word itself mind you).

Oh ok.
Exactly what "actual physical variables" are we talking about?

You seem to have the typical obtuse comprehension of people who merely latch onto dogma.

evolution = dogma

Yes you're right in an OUTDATED system aggregation of information would cause the system to crash. But that's why NEW systems are released which process more information and can perform more functions. EVOLUTION, except this one is not Natural Selection, but Artificial Selection. Same occurs to our chromosomes. A New information backup occurs.

OK.

Let's not use the computer analogy anymore. Because a computer is programmed by an intelligent being. Evolution states that speciation occures via "random mutation".

Random information is just random. It's like saying, put a million monkeys on a million typewriters and eventually one of them will type out a play of Shakespeare. Maybe hamlet?

Yes billions of nucleotides, Nature has shown how ingenius Allah(swt) is and shows how Allah(swt) the absolute is a Master of Combinatorics (by the way I have a friend who's doing a PHD thesis on DNA Combinatorics it's absolutely fascinating), and finds efficient ways to interloop these nucleotides to encompass Chromosomes, another feature of evolution.

Hypothetical Constructs of the human mind.


Let's stick to reality.

[randolph85]

i am intrigued by this debate

alchemist, if u havent alredy answered this, i would like for you to give your intake on this verse in the context of the debate.

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

[ScimitarXEdge]

My problem is not with the arabic.
It is with your English.

Because you used words like "physical" vs "non physical" and "archeytype" vs "Earthly". It is really confusing because you didn't answer me on your opinions about ISra and Miraj and I don't know what you mean you say Adam on earth is different than the Adam that is referenced by Allah...the Adam that was in heaven. Anyway. Let it be. This is not really relevant to our case because your next statement pretty much ends our debate on this particular verse in your next paragraph.

You're zigzagging between subjects, you're doing what's called changing Goal Posts and Red herring to make it seem like because we have it in this debate it means in other subjects the same would apply. Let's stick to context.

Another problem I have with you, is that you rationalize the Qur'an to fit your own ideas, a priori.

That's what it seems to you; but rather it seems the Literalism individuals like yourself who carry on this legacy impose was a priori to delegimitize the use of empirical knowledge in understanding the Qur'an.

Which is why I abandoned the Ahl Al-Sunnah Wal Jama'ah and embraced Mu'tazilism. Look at things logically, not by dogma, if something doesn't fit a dogma manufactured by human interpretation, especially humans who'd say things such as but not limited to, the Earth being flat (see Tafsir Al-Jalalayn for details) when the Astronomers had determined it to be round, then this is accepting things a priori. Not the contrary. I merely want to free Islam and free the Qur'an of hundreds of years of cultural gobbly goop placed upon it.

For example, earlier you quoted for me surah Nuh-14 to 15 and you meant to use it as evidence for "evolution". However, all the mufaseerin and ulama and even translators of Qur'an know that the context used for "stages" is of the stages of your own individual creation. Like I said, you keep trying to merge individual development with evolution. You are not the first. Many evolutionists initially believed in the phrase "ontology recapitulates phylogeny". But as our understanding of development increased with the aid of technological developments, we learned that this is not the case and now rarely will you find evolutionists singing this mantra. However, you do. It is clear that the stages that Allah refers to here is the stages of growth, from zygote, to blastula, to morula, to embroyo, to fetus, to infant, to child etc., since Allah has explained this in other verses of the Qur'an like wise. Also, if you read the verse in it's full context, you will note that Allah is calling individual man to look at himself and be grateful for all that thing's he has had as an individual. It also happens to have the same ayat, in surah nuh, where Allah says he has made the earth flat, so that you could go about it, but you mocked Mujib's understanding of it. In reality we do grow from the earth, as we eat the vegetation that sprouts from it, and when we die, we turn to dust again. You take this to mean something more abstract as evolution...that man was created as unicellular organism, bacteria, then an invertebrate, that swam in the sea, then a lizard, then a bird and a mammal, and then a human being. Isn't that more absurd?

Let me argue this with you from a perspective of analogy. In Tafsir Al-Jalalayn , the Scholars who composed it say the following in regards to Surah Al Ghashiyah verse 20 (Qur'an Majid 88:20)

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

And the earth, how it was laid out flat?, and thus infer from this the power of God, exalted be He, and His Oneness? The commencing with the [mention of] camels is because they are closer in contact with it [the earth] than any other [animal]. As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law.

Now does this implicate that Qur'an is saying that the Earth is flat/not really round, just because the opinion of the Mufassireen of that time were saying the Earth is flat?

I'm sure you accept the Earth is round, and there's evidence the Earth is round. However, there is no doubt many mufassirun rendered these verses to implicate that it's round. In fact it seems they were using the verse tactic you invoked on me, a prior, they merely interpreted things according to their own biases. They had a bias against science, hence rejected science, since it wasn't from a "prophetically revealed source" The qur'an thus could in no way be saying the Earth is flat if it is divinely revealed, because if God authored the Qur'an he authored nature too, and the Qur'an would not contradict Nature, as this would be contradicting God.

And this is precisely why Creationists like yourself throw caution to the wind in the face of scientific evidence and basically ignore the science behind it. You opt for Harun Yahya books which have many inaccuracies.

However even the Prophet (saw) said for things that were outside the realm of his Prophethood was the jurisdiction of the people who had experience/expertise in this field. (look up Hadith about cross breeding Palm Trees http://www.searchtruth.com/book_disp...77&number=5829).

The Qur'an says several things in regards to the origins of human existence and life in general.

Namely the following; made from clay, made from the QUINTESSENCE of clay (minerals/elements contained within clay?), Made from Earth/dust, made from water, black mud. and finally as demonstrated He created man from water. Black Mud and clay are not the same things, mind you, and in the literal sense neither is merely wet clay and water.

If we read these things with literalism; the Qur'an and Allah(swt) would be contradicting themselves; which would nullify the divine origin of the Qur'an; however, if we understand these things contextually, we can see they're accurate and consistent with reality.

this is coupled with the fact Surah Al Nuh says in a later verse; #17 says

71:17 "'And Allah has produced you from the earth growing (gradually)"


the verse of Surah Al Nuh #14, also does not speak of an individual; it speaks of mankind, look at the use of the Plural Second Person.

وَقَدْ خَلَقَكُمْ أَطْوَارًا
It says khalaqakum not khalaqaka, and the verses connect into verse 17, which means there can't be anything else being described here but an evolutionary process between the matter of the earth culminating into homosapiens.

This indicates that the creation of man was not ex-nihilo, but a process and based on materials. Ex-Nihilo means exactly what it says, Out of no thing, it's absolute.

So you have a few scenarios

1.) the Qur'an contradicts itself
2.) the Qur'an is contextual and many parts allegorical about man's creation.
3.) the Qur'an describes spiritual realm in which Allah(swt) created the essence of Adam, as a model based on chemical composition etc etc, and a material, physical being. existing in the form of evolution, created from water growing from the earth.

the last two seem the most feasible, especially given modern evidences.

and no it's not more absurd, especially given what we know about how our bodies are composed of materials within the Earth itself, as are the bodies of other species. what you're doing now is same thing as what you accused me of, merely interpolating, a-priori. Growing out of the Earth by eating vegetation is a bit more absurd, eating vegetation is not the same as growing, and furthermore if we're to use your premise about the Mufassireen's interpretation. Most have not interpreted it the way you are either.
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

So clearly as demonstrated your concern isn't that it's not inline with the Mufassireen but so you can reject evolution. out of dogma.

So basically you deny the Miraculous Conception of Isa?

You know Allah could have said that Isa is like any other human being, why make the comparison SPECIFICALLY to Adam?

Allah (swt) does say so;

much like how you skirt past the verse about ALL LIVING THINGS being made out of water. You also skirt past this one.

21:7 Before thee, also, the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message

So he is describing him as ALL being men, they were all simply human beings. Nothing super natural.

Add to that, that Adam is also synonym for mankind, the word Adam itself means "foundation" of creation or "first of creation"

take a look
http://qamoos.sakhr.com/SearchResults.aspx

You deny that the common factor between Adam and Jesus (peace be upon them) is the fact that neither of them have a father?

If we examine carefully the verses; it doesn't explicitly say neither had a father, it only says that Maryam was surprised by the idea that she could have children without being touched by a man, it doesn't say that Mary and her betrothed did/did not mate.

You deny that the Qur'an itself is a direct evidence of the miraculous birth?

This makes me wonder whether you believe in any of the miracles performed by Issa ibn Maryam even?

Me too; at this point, I'm only arguing that your scenarios are not necessarily the case. Not so much whether I deny or believe them. remember we're debating evolution here. Not MY 'Aqidah.

You still haven't said where the necessary information for the formation of a zygote could come from? It is impossible for a female's germ line to produce both the egg and the sperm! So creation ex nihilo fits the case. But you say that man has to be created from something. So what was that thing that Jesus was created out of? It can't be some food she ate. It could only be said the the 23 set of chromosomes necessary appeared out no where by Allah's will. So answer me, where did it come from otherwise?

If we follow the God Hypothesis; God "miraculously" made the chromosomes for Jesus. This doesn't imply that Adam was ex-nihlo, because even then Jesus, was made from Maryam's egg, hence was made of a substance either way.

if we follow the Natural hypothesis of God not intervening, the Qur'an never explicitly says that Maryam didn't have intercourse, according to extra Qur'anic sources she was betrothed to Yusuf, some Tafsir, such as that of Tabari allude to that, I believe Zamakhshari also alludes to that. Maryam's shock may habe been she wasn't sure as to how Allah(swt) would impregnate her. Perhaps encouraging her to consummate with Yusuf, then withdrew.

This makes me wonder...

Do you believe that Mosa's stick turned to a snake when he threw it?
Do you believe that Isa ibn Maryam molded clay and by the permission of Allah brought it to life?

Let's stay on topic.

How can you doubt the creation of Adam out of clay?

Because we have proof there was no literal clay to be made out of, it would be foolhearty to believe in something which isn't even definitively literal according to the collective references in the Qur'an, nevermind science.

Look who is boasting of the depth of their own understanding, in whose comparison we swim in the shallows.

I'm not boasting, you're simply taking only face value understandings.

Let's not bring Quantum MEchanics. Frankly, Scimitar, you are no expert on the field, neither am I.

Secondly, it's not a "God Hypothesis".

I have taken a course on Quantum Mechanics and Modern Physics; no I'm not an expert, but I am informed enough to understand the conceptual basis of it, and the conceptual basis, shows your false dichotomy regarding time and space in relation to what's beyond it would not apply.

We both agreed that there is some sequence of event in creation. However, you are the one that claims to know the how, where as I am saying, it is the ilm of Ghaib. This is unseen knowledge. Here I admit that my understanding is shallow (compared to Allah's knowledge! its not even a tear drop in 7 oceans). You, on the other hand, seem to think that you know how Allah creates life. I only believe what Allah Himself says in the Qur'an. "Created the heavens and earth in six days, suma istawa 3allal arsh" And that is it. We can't add anything out of our own whims.

I don't claim to know how; I am claiming that gradually Allah(swt) reveals from his creation how and this is what has come about. You can either live in ignorance of embrace reality under the guise of dogma and false piety. Your choice.

OK, so I am incompetent in basic sciences. This is what you want to prove here?

No, I do feel your opposition to evolution is because you don't understand the science behind it.

it means "he was nothing a thing"

Well, if it means he was not a physical thing, then it means, no thing. You just don't want to admit you are wrong, but you just reiterated what I said. What's the problem?

Sorry I mistyped; I mean "he was not a thing" ; Well there is a linguistical difference between "3ayn" (nothingness) and "wa la2 shay" (not a thing); it's important. The verse does not say "khalaqahu min al 3ayn" (created from nothingness) , rather it says " qabel lamo yaku shay" which means "before he had not become a thing". It means he was not a being, not that he was made without components. Even other verses of the Qur'an which talk about clay, water, etc etc say that. You seem to selectively ignore the verses of the Qur'an when it's not convenient.

OK. Environmental science. Just leave at that.
You are not familiar with microbiology or genetics or evolution, so don't act like it's your forte.

Actually if you know anything about environmental science, we have to take microbiology, genetics and evolution, ecology incorporates genetics and evolution in the curriculum to understand how species form their niches in the Environment.

Neurobehavioural Psychology and biology. In layman's term "study of the brain." Do you know of anything more complex than the human brain?
As a matter of fact I took a whole course on evolution and a couple on genetics. Some in biochemistry, cellular biology (one for just the nucleas and one for all else), anatomy, physiology etc etc. I told you brah, I got money on my mind so I put school on hold. "as your argument's suggest" lol .. what about your arguments? What has been scientific about your arguments so far?

If you're arguing the conventional Creationism on the basis of complexity you'll find numerous reasons all over the net why such an argument is nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

wow. So confident.

Not confident, informed.

Well I did brah. Go to the "Evolution, why us". I quoted a peer reviewed journal that showed the impossibility of there ever being a unicellular organism so simple enough to be an ancestor of both prokaryotes and eukaryotes. I posted A LOT of evidences there but you just never bothered to counter any of them. You left the reigns to goat mountain... I guess his counters were to your satisfaction?

Post the peer reviewed journal here, I don't have time to sift through posts where 90% of the argument is you insulting Goat and posting a few spectral graphs that you have no understanding of.

Well I think "ahlul sunnah wal jamma" is historically propaganda and politics. But I am not calling myself a "Mu'tazali". Should I?

Well we agree on something I agree, but for me I chose Mu'atzilism because it has the most balanced approached between Sunni and Shi'a.
That's another debate, don't spiral off on this point.

Some things you can't question and it has nothing to do with intellectual laziness. Even Allah forbade the prophet to speak on certain questions that were raised to him. Do you know of the prayer "Allahuma la taj3al al dunia akbara hamina wa la mablagha 3lmina"?

yes Some things; but there's nothing , absolutely nothing in which we MUST believe the creation story literally. we're required to believe, In Allah, the anbiyah/arsal, aktab and wahi. Everything else is based on our understandings and our intellectual explorations.

Muslim Stagnancy could have come about for a number of reasons and that is a totally different issue. Just because we have fallen out of Allah's grace doesn't mean we should reform our Aqeedah and then change the meaning of the words of Allah. Western Civilization is now coming to a decline also, but they are not even religious, so what is their fault?

Thats' true, but you can't deny that's a contributing factor; when individuals like Mujib want to promote this demogogic cartel who want to monopolize a power structure for themselves, by claiming exclusive dictate over Truth, which would be fine if the supplied some tangible merit behind it.

Neither does clay, so what's your point?

but clay is mixed with the components in so much as trace elements which could come together to compose amino acids.

Still, if they don't undergo "cellular metabolism", then why do they eat?

Allah 3alim, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

And what kind of evidence are you waiting for?
Theological or scientific?

Scientific. Theologic is not rigorous.

So basically, from your perspective, Qur'an is subordinated to Science?

What is science? Knowledge of Nature really, Nature is made/governed by God, so the legitimacy of the Qur'an would come from God's creation.

But we already discussed this.

why do you keep repeating it?

Allah himself uses Anthropomorphism, so what's wrong with that? He says he has hands, and he says he has Wahj. We already discussed this.

if that's the case we may as well be Hindus, God uses metaphorism, not Anthropomorphism.

Sure buddy.
Should I use a black pen?

Yes, please

So you are saying that ahadith are wrong, Ulama are wrong...and I should only follow your interpretation of the Qur'an?

No , we should understand stuff in proper context, that's what I am saying.

How can you be so sure of your self? You seem to think you are infallible because you are ALWAYS rational. But it could also be that you are always rationalizing.

I just go by verifiable evidence, it's not a claim of infallibility but simply looking at things by what we know by available references which confirm it,.

Try imagining your self arguing with Donald Rumsfeld for instance. Do you think you could convince him that his foreign policy was flawed? You claim to be the expert, so you can make the problem, and then you can give your own solution to the problem, which is it self also a part of the problem. Rather the problem is with the way you think. Apparently no one can tell you otherwise because you know it better?
The mufasseerin, the great ulama of a deen, they don't know, but you know? The muhaditheen don't know, but you know?

When you can explain to me why the Two Jalals claiimed stated the Ulama saw the Earth as flat, and yes this is relevant in so much as understanding the veracity of their claims is concerned. Then you can disparage my skepticism of their posistions as arrogant.

Niggah what?
What is a heretic?


"anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle."

You said it yourself.

Ah yes but I don't do that, no such standard of aqidah requires me to believe in such matters literally. It's merely some invention you're imposing on me.

And who's being arrogant and acting all knowing here? Hmm?

I am not paranoid at all. I just remember reading one of your posts where you said that you use to have an extremist attitude towards certain issues and that some other members here reminded you of your bygone days. I simply meant to say, that to an extent, you still are extreme.

The word extreme has been *******ized and this is plain evidence. It's become some trump card to discredit someone. Not that it doesn't have legit usages. But if I was actually extreme, I'd be shunning Islam like Baygham does on accounts of stuff like this. The Fact I can see the underlying consistency shows that I can balance Natural reality with Revelation in a way which is universally applicable.

Maybe this constant accusations of heresy, one without an explicit basis, is what should really be labeled extreme?

Yeah, "lineally descended."

that is a part of your answer. You can't accept that? I asked you to read that link where At tirmidy wrote on "lawla muhammad ma khalqna al arda wa ma fiha". No comments on it so I guess you didn't.

You may not realize it; but thinking back to my Archtypes/Model debate this would actually affirm my point. Of the Model of Mankind, in the world of Similitudes.

Well, in your other arguments you make some weird suggestions. Like how Adam was not created out of clay in reality, but that some blue print design of him was made. So I don't know how that verse would relate to the same events. That it was also blue prints? And the story is just metaphorical? I guess, by this you mean that all the Ahadith that are collected are a) bogus b) the prophet peace be upon him was always speaking in metaphors. Kind of like how some psychologists compare the ancient mythologies of different societies and find "Archetypes" that are present in all those stores. That the Qur'an too is just another book of mythology? Oh..I am putting words in your mouth? Ops.

yes at least you're paying attention; and if you look at things closely; you keep posting references that corroborate that. For if there was no archetypal Adam, Muhammad(saw) would not be able to make claims like "I was a Prophet when Adam was between Body and Spirit".

Exactly what "actual physical variables" are we talking about?

evolution = dogma
OK.

Yeah dogma based on experiments, chemical principles, analsyis, empirical research etc etc.

Let's not use the computer analogy anymore. Because a computer is programmed by an intelligent being. Evolution states that speciation occures via "random mutation".

Fair enough, but the idea still holds in the sense of how chromosomes form. Now speciation may seem "random mutation" but it's not. It occurs due to specfic conditions. Who's to say evolution is not an intelligent system? I believe it is, the ebb and flow of different species only reflects nature.

Random information is just random. It's like saying, put a million monkeys on a million typewriters and eventually one of them will type out a play of Shakespeare. Maybe hamlet?

Hypothetical Constructs of the human mind.


Let's stick to reality.

But it's not random it's based on existing information sets and their combinatoric relationships. They're organized by natural forces and reactions.

[faye]

i was reading an interesting website explaining quaran and science. it said the 'clove them asunder' referred to 'the big bang'.

[Alchemist]

You're zigzagging between subjects, you're doing what's called changing Goal Posts and Red herring to make it seem like because we have it in this debate it means in other subjects the same would apply. Let's stick to context.

Just because you say I am doesn't mean that I am. Everything I have mentioned is within the context of our discussion. Show me how I have "zigzagged". Otherwise stop throwing fallacy names left, right and centre.

That's what it seems to you; but rather it seems the Literalism individuals like yourself who carry on this legacy impose was a priori to delegimitize the use of empirical knowledge in understanding the Qur'an.

Empirical knowledge is not the only kind of knowledge and certainly not the be all and end all. With only Empiricism and Rationalism you cannot accept religion. And you are living proof of that since you are having trouble believing in some of the most basic concepts of Islam.
The knowledge of life belongs to Allah (Al Muhy)."When I have fashioned him in due proportion and breathed into him of My spirit” (HIJR, 29)“But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His Spirit” (SAJDA, 9)“He Who created Death and Life” (MULK, 2).
Mankind will never be able to induce "speciation" in a laboratory. You are "entertaining" the belief that one day a man and his wife can go to a lab and specify what genetic traits they would want in their child's DNA. As if Empiricism will allow man to take over the Attributes of Allah, Al Khaliq. But don't say anything yet, read what follows. When it comes to Islam there is much that you don't know brother.

Which is why I abandoned the Ahl Al-Sunnah Wal Jama'ah and embraced Mu'tazilism. Look at things logically, not by dogma, if something doesn't fit a dogma manufactured by human interpretation, especially humans who'd say things such as but not limited to, the Earth being flat (see Tafsir Al-Jalalayn for details) when the Astronomers had determined it to be round, then this is accepting things a priori. Not the contrary. I merely want to free Islam and free the Qur'an of hundreds of years of cultural gobbly goop placed upon it.

Let me argue this with you from a perspective of analogy. In Tafsir Al-Jalalayn , the Scholars who composed it say the following in regards to Surah Al Ghashiyah verse 20 (Qur'an Majid 88:20)

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

Now does this implicate that Qur'an is saying that the Earth is flat/not really round, just because the opinion of the Mufassireen of that time were saying the Earth is flat?

I'm sure you accept the Earth is round, and there's evidence the Earth is round. However, there is no doubt many mufassirun rendered these verses to implicate that it's round. In fact it seems they were using the verse tactic you invoked on me, a prior, they merely interpreted things according to their own biases. They had a bias against science, hence rejected science, since it wasn't from a "prophetically revealed source" The qur'an thus could in no way be saying the Earth is flat if it is divinely revealed, because if God authored the Qur'an he authored nature too, and the Qur'an would not contradict Nature, as this would be contradicting God.

And this is precisely why Creationists like yourself throw caution to the wind in the face of scientific evidence and basically ignore the science behind it. You opt for Harun Yahya books which have many inaccuracies.

When you can explain to me why the Two Jalals claiimed stated the Ulama saw the Earth as flat, and yes this is relevant in so much as understanding the veracity of their claims is concerned. Then you can disparage my skepticism of their posistions as arrogant.

Just free your mind for a second and follow what I have to say, openly. Forget everything else because I am about to tell you what I personally believe about the ayats that says the earth is flat.

There are two words that Allah uses together often, Samawat and Ard.
Samawat is usually translated to "Heavens" and Ard is Earth. We commonly believe that Earth is planet Earth and that the Samawat is the universe, the solar system, the galaxies. However, Samawat is plural, and it is seven, but the universe is one.

41:12 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.


The heavens are not only what we see of this universe but the Heavens that stretch forth to the many layers of "Heaven". This could very well mean different dimensions. Why do I say this?

65:12 Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.

The question would then come, why does Allah ask if we can see it, if we cant? But remember the verse, "Rahmatun Lil 3Lameen". And 3lameen applies to Jin and Mankind. The Jinnies can see the layering of the heavens. Today, many muslims, not excluding yourself, especially those of the "Ahlul Sunna wal Jamma3". Are trying to interpret the ayats to means that the saba3 samawat is "scientific proof" of Qur'an because it alludes to the different "zones" of the atmosphere (e.g ozone layer).

Previously I said that the mufasseering have based their exegesis on Ahadith.

Here are the Ahadith and proofs:

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Narrated Muhammad bin Ibrahim bin Al-Harith:
from Abu Salama bin 'Abdur-Rahman who had a dispute with some people on a piece of land, and so he went to 'Aisha and told her about it. She said, "O Abu Salama, avoid the land, for Allah's Apostle said, ‘Any person who takes even a span of land unjustly, his neck shall be encircled with it down seven earths.’" (Volume 4, Book 54, Number 417; see also Numbers 418, 420; Volume 3, Book 43, Numbers 632-634)
Narrated 'Abdullah:
A (Jewish) Rabbi came to Allah's Apostle and he said, "O Muhammad! We learn that Allah will put all the heavens on one finger, and the earths on one finger, and the trees on one finger, and the water and the dust on one finger, and all the other created beings on one finger. Then He will say, ‘I am the King.’" Thereupon the Prophet smiled so that his pre-molar teeth became visible, and that was the confirmation of the Rabbi. Then Allah's Apostle recited: ‘No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to Him.’ (39.67) (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 335)

Sahih Muslim

Muhammad b. Ibrahim said that Abu Salama reported to him that there was between him and his people dispute over a piece of land, and he came to 'A'isha and mentioned that to her, whereupon she said: Abu Salama, abstain from getting this land, for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He who usurps even a span of land would be made to wear around his neck seven earths. (Book 010, Number 3925; see also Numbers 3920-3924)

Al-Tirmidhi

Narrated AbuHurayrah
While Allah's Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions were sitting clouds came over them and Allah's Prophet (peace be upon him) asked, "Do you know what these are?" On their replying that Allah and His Messenger knew best, he said, "These are the clouds (anan), these are the water-carriers of the Earth, which Allah drives to people who do not thank Him or call upon him." He then asked, "Do you know what is above you?" On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, "It is the firmament, a ceiling which is guarded and waves which are kept back." He then asked, "Do you know what is between you and it?" On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, "Between you and it are five hundred years." He then asked, "Do you knew what is above that?" On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) best he said, "Two heavens with a distance of five hundred years between them." He went on speaking like that till he counted seven heavens, the distance between each pair being like between Heaven and Earth. He then asked, "Do you know what is above that?" On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, "Above that is the Throne, and the distance between it and the (seventh) heaven is the same as that between each pair of heavens." He then asked, "Do you know what is below you?" On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, "It is the earth." He then asked, "Do you know what is under that?" On their replying that Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) knew best, he said, "Under it there is another Earth with a journey of five hundred years between them," and so on till he had counted seven earths with a journey of five hundred years between each pair. He then said, "By Him in Whose hand Muhammad's soul is, if you were to drop a rope to the lowest earth it would not pass out of Allah's knowledge." He then recited, "He is the First and the Last, the Outward and the Inward, and He is omniscient." (Tirmidhi commented that Allah's Messenger's recitation of the verse indicates that it would go down within Allah's knowledge, power and authority, for Allah's knowledge, power and authority are everywhere, while He is on the Throne, as He described Himself in His Book.)
Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it. (Number 1513- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Note: This hadith is particularly relevant, since the reference to the seven earths is this time not made in passing while talking about some other topic. It is Muhammad himself who takes the initiative to teach his followers the structure of the universe. The ‘fact’ that there are seven heavens and seven earths is already stated in the Qur'an. Muhammad, however, wants his followers to know also what the relation is between these seven heavens and the seven earths, what exactly is their relative position and the distance between them.

Narrated Ubayy ibn Ka'b
In regard to the words of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, "Your Lord brought forth their offspring from the loins of the children of Adam." (7:172) Ubayy said: He gathered them and paired them then fashioned them and endowed them with the power of speech and they began to speak. He then made an agreement and covenant with them. He made them bear witness about themselves (saying) Am I not your Lord. They said: Yes. He said: I call to witness seven heavens and seven earths regarding you ...
Transmitted by Ahmad. (Number 41- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said that Moses asked his Lord to teach him something with which to make mention of Him or to supplicate Him, and was told to say, "There is no god but Allah." He replied to his Lord that all His servants said this, but he wanted something particularly for himself, and He said, "Moses, were the seven heavens and their inhabitants, apart from me, and the seven earths put on one side of a balance and ‘There is no god but Allah’ on the other, ‘There is no god but Allah’ would outweigh them."
It is transmitted in Sharh as-Sunnah. (Number 731- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Narrated Ya'la ibn Murrah
Ya'la told of hearing Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) say, "If anyone wrongly takes a span of land, Allah, Who is Great and Glorious, will make him dig it till he gets to the end of seven earths, and then he will have it tied round his neck till the Day of Resurrection when men are judged."
Ahmad transmitted it. (Number 885- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Fiqh-us-Sunna

... Ata ibn abi Marwan states from his father that Ka'b took an oath by the One who opened up the sea for Moses that Suhaib related to him that whenever the Messenger of Allah sallallahu alehi wasallam saw a city which he wished to enter, he would say: "O Allah, Lord of the seven heavens and what they shade, Lord of the seven earths and what they carry, Lord of the satans and those that they misguide, Lord of the winds and what they blow away, I ask of You for the good of this city and the good of its inhabitants and the good of what is in it. I seek refuge in You from its evil and the evil of its inhabitants and the evil of what is in it." This is related by an-Nasa'i, ibn Hibban, and al-Hakim who calls it sahih ... (Volume 2, Number 119b- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)
... Khalid b. Walid reported that once he suffered from insomnia. The Prophet, peace be upon him, said to him, "Shall I teach you words that will make you go to sleep when you say them? Say, ‘O Allah, the Lord of the seven heavens and whatever they cover, Lord of the earths and whatever they contain, Creator of devils and whomever they mislead, be my protector from the evil of all Your creatures lest some of them may hasten with insolence against me or transgress the bounds. Honored is he who is in Your protection and blessed be Your name, there is no god except You’." (Reported by At-Tabrani in his Al-Kahir and Al-Awsat. Its chain is sound, although Abdur-Rahman did not hear it from Khalid. Al-Hafiz al-Mundhari has mentioned it)… (Volume 4, Number 122- taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

Evidence from Early Muslim Historians and Commentators

Tafsir Ibn Abbas

(Allah it is Who hath created seven heavens) one above the other like a dome, (and of the earth the like thereof) seven earths BUT THEY ARE FLAT. (The commandment cometh down among them slowly) He says: He sends the angels down from heaven with revelation, Scripture and calamities, (that ye may know) and acknowledge (that Allah is Able to do all things) relating to the dwellers of the heavens and the earths, (and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge) and that His knowledge encompasses everything.' (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn 'Abbâs; online source; bold, underline and capital emphasis ours)

Al-Tabari

According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal is in the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: They are seven earths that are FLAT and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean. (History of Al-Tabari-General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood, Volume 1, trans. Franz Rosenthal [State University of New York Press, Albany 1989], pp. 207-208)

Ibn Kathir

<and of the earth the like thereof.> means, He created seven earths. In the Two Sahihs, there is a Hadith that states ...
In the beginning of my book, Al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah, I mentioned the various narrations for this Hadith when I narrated the story of the creation of the earth. All the thanks and praise is due to Allah.
Those who explained this Hadith to mean the seven continents have brought an implausible explanation that contradicts the letter of the Qur’an and the Hadith without having proof. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged) Volume 10 (Surat At-Tagabun to the end of the Qur’an), abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, London, Lahore; first edition, September 2000], pp. 55-56; bold emphasis ours)

Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah al-Kisa'i

... There are seven earths. The first is called Ramaka, beneath which is the Barren Wind, which can be bridled by no fewer than seventy thousand angels. With this wind God destroyed the people of Ad. The inhabitants of Ramaka are a nation called Muwashshim, upon whom is everlasting torment and divine retribution. The second earth is called Khalada, wherein are the implements of torture for the inhabitants of Hell. There dwells a nation called Tamis, whose food is their own flesh and whose drink is their own blood. The third earth is called Arqa, wherein dwell mulelike eagles with spearlike tails. On each tail are three hundred and sixty poisonous quills. Were even one quill placed on the face of the earth, the entire universe would pass away. The inhabitants thereof are a nation called Qays, who eat dirt and drink mothers' milk. The fourth earth is called Haraba, wherein dwell the snakes of Hell, which are as large as mountains. Each snake has fangs like tall palm trees, and if they were to strike the hugest mountain with their fangs it would be leveled to the ground. The inhabitants of this earth are a nation called Jilla, and they have no eyes, hands or feet but have wings like bats and die only of old age. The fifth earth is called Maltham, wherein stones of sulphur hang around the necks of infidels. When the fire is kindled the fuel is placed on their breasts, and the flames leap up onto their faces, as He hath said: The fire whose fuel is men and stones (2:24), and Fire shall cover their faces (14:50). The inhabitants are a nation called Hajla, who are numerous and who eat each other. The sixth earth is called Sijjin. Here are the registers of the people of Hell, and their works are vile, as He hath said: Verily the register of the actions of the wicked is surely Sijjin (83:7). Herein dwells a nation called Qatat, who are shaped like birds and worship God truly. The seventh earth is called Ajiba and is the habitation of Iblis. There dwells a nation called Khasum, who are BLACK and short, with claws like lions. It is they who will be given dominion over Gog and Magog, who will be destroyed by them… (Tales of the Prophets-Qisas al-anbiya, trans. Wheeler M. Thackston Jr. [Great Books of the Islamic World, Inc., Distributed by Kazi Publications; Chicago, IL 1997], pp. 8-9)

Shaykh Al-Albani
The late renowned modern hadith scholar Al-Allamah Muhammad Nasir ud-Deen Al-Albani, after citing the following narration:

134 - "When death was approaching the Prophet of Allaah Nooh – sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam – he said to his son: I will narrate to you my bequest; I command you with two things and prohibit you from two things. I command you with 'La ilaha ‘illa Allaah' (‘There is none worthy of worship in truth except Allaah) if the seven heavens and the seven earths were placed upon a scale and 'La ilaha ‘illa Allaah' was placed on the other, then 'La ilaha ‘illa Allaah' would be heavier… Silsilah Saheehah: 134

Stated that:

4 - The seven earths are like the seven heavens. There are many Ahadeeth regarding this in Bukharee and Muslim and in other books. Perhaps one day we will have time to follow up these Ahadeeth and research them. What supports these Ahadeeth is the saying of Allaah Tabaraka wa Ta' aala : << It is Allaah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven). >> I.e. they are similar in creation and in number.
So, you should not pay any attention to the one who explains it away, there by it ends up as a negation of similarity as well as in numbers, being deceived by the Europeans and where their knowledge has reached to, from having gone up in to space however they do not know of seven earths, along with that they do not know about seven heavens. Will we reject the speech of Allaah and the speech of His Messenger due to the ignorance of the Europeans and others along with them, declaring that the more they increase their knowledge of the universe, the more they increase in their ignorance of it. Allaah the Most Great has spoken the truth when He said : << And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little >> (Al-Albani, The Ahadeeth of Tawheed from the Silsilah Ahadeeth As-Saheehah; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

Another puzzle that the physicists and mathematicians, cosmologists are wrestling with is the "shape of the universe".


Shape of the Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shape of the Universe: Closed, Open, or Flat

And the scientists now believe that the universe is flat.
I am not saying that the ayats means this. But this is just for you to know that there are other explanations. And that the mufaseering are not "wrong" or "contradicting empiricism".


And as you said somewhere else, the Qur'an is easy to understand in laymen's term, but give it further thought, and you will see deeper layers in it, and only those who have dedicated their whole life to it can peer that far into it.

The Qur'an says several things in regards to the origins of human existence and life in general.

Namely the following; made from clay, made from the QUINTESSENCE of clay (minerals/elements contained within clay?), Made from Earth/dust, made from water, black mud. and finally as demonstrated He created man from water. Black Mud and clay are not the same things, mind you, and in the literal sense neither is merely wet clay and water.

If we read these things with literalism; the Qur'an and Allah(swt) would be contradicting themselves; which would nullify the divine origin of the Qur'an; however, if we understand these things contextually, we can see they're accurate and consistent with reality.

this is coupled with the fact Surah Al Nuh says in a later verse; #17 says

71:17 "'And Allah has produced you from the earth growing (gradually)"


the verse of Surah Al Nuh #14, also does not speak of an individual; it speaks of mankind, look at the use of the Plural Second Person.

وَقَدْ خَلَقَكُمْ أَطْوَارًا
It says khalaqakum not khalaqaka, and the verses connect into verse 17, which means there can't be anything else being described here but an evolutionary process between the matter of the earth culminating into homosapiens.

This indicates that the creation of man was not ex-nihilo, but a process and based on materials. Ex-Nihilo means exactly what it says, Out of no thing, it's absolute.

So you have a few scenarios

1.) the Qur'an contradicts itself
2.) the Qur'an is contextual and many parts allegorical about man's creation.
3.) the Qur'an describes spiritual realm in which Allah(swt) created the essence of Adam, as a model based on chemical composition etc etc, and a material, physical being. existing in the form of evolution, created from water growing from the earth.

the last two seem the most feasible, especially given modern evidences.

and no it's not more absurd, especially given what we know about how our bodies are composed of materials within the Earth itself, as are the bodies of other species. what you're doing now is same thing as what you accused me of, merely interpolating, a-priori. Growing out of the Earth by eating vegetation is a bit more absurd, eating vegetation is not the same as growing, and furthermore if we're to use your premise about the Mufassireen's interpretation. Most have not interpreted it the way you are either.
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

So clearly as demonstrated your concern isn't that it's not inline with the Mufassireen but so you can reject evolution. out of dogma.

Here are the Ayat with the word Khalaqakum, in the plural sense and the "stages" described.

وَاللَّهُ خَلَقَكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ جَعَلَكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَمَا تَحْمِلُ مِنْ أُنثَى وَلَا تَضَعُ إِلَّا بِعِلْمِهِ وَمَا يُعَمَّرُ مِن مُّعَمَّرٍ وَلَا يُنقَصُ مِنْ عُمُرِهِ إِلَّا فِي كِتَابٍ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرٌ

35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah.

هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ يُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ ثُمَّ لِتَكُونُوا شُيُوخًا وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى مِن قَبْلُ وَلِتَبْلُغُوا أَجَلًا مُّسَمًّى وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

40:67 It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom.

Created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then leech-like cloth, child, full strength, then old. Is this not what I said?
Is this the description of evolution? Then why do you say that the aya in surah nuh is describing evolution when there is no indication of it in the Qur'an?

Allah (swt) does say so;

much like how you skirt past the verse about ALL LIVING THINGS being made out of water. You also skirt past this one.

All living thing is made out of water.
The human body is composed of 70% water.
Clay contains 70% water.

21:7 Before thee, also, the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message

So he is describing him as ALL being men, they were all simply human beings. Nothing super natural.

Add to that, that Adam is also synonym for mankind, the word Adam itself means "foundation" of creation or "first of creation"

take a look
http://qamoos.sakhr.com/SearchResults.aspx



If we examine carefully the verses; it doesn't explicitly say neither had a father, it only says that Maryam was surprised by the idea that she could have children without being touched by a man, it doesn't say that Mary and her betrothed did/did not mate.


Me too; at this point, I'm only arguing that your scenarios are not necessarily the case. Not so much whether I deny or believe them. remember we're debating evolution here. Not MY 'Aqidah.


If we follow the God Hypothesis; God "miraculously" made the chromosomes for Jesus. This doesn't imply that Adam was ex-nihlo, because even then Jesus, was made from Maryam's egg, hence was made of a substance either way.

if we follow the Natural hypothesis of God not intervening, the Qur'an never explicitly says that Maryam didn't have intercourse, according to extra Qur'anic sources she was betrothed to Yusuf, some Tafsir, such as that of Tabari allude to that, I believe Zamakhshari also alludes to that. Maryam's shock may habe been she wasn't sure as to how Allah(swt) would impregnate her. Perhaps encouraging her to consummate with Yusuf, then withdrew.

Jesus was made out of mariam's egg?
You wish to test my knowledge of the sciences and you say that the other 23 chromosomes were made out of mariam's egg?

Brother, let me retell you the story of Mariam (aliha salam).

Mariam's mother prayed to Allah for a child who she would have dedicate his life to the worship of Allah without any care for the world. She gave birth to a girl, but was expecting a boy, as it was customary for boys to live the ascetic life in the temple. Still Mariam became a devote worshiper of Allah. She was left alone in seclusion in the eastern side of the the temple. As was customary then, those whose life were dedicated to the worship of Allah alone, were ascetic, and not married off. Zakaria, her "guardian" was older than her, and the only person to visit her. (Know that Zakaria upon seeing the devotion of Mariam, prayed to Allah for a son to. His wife was of old age and barren, but Allah gave him Yahya, who was a symbol of righteousness).
This is why when Mariam was found pregnant the people suspected that she had committed fornication. This is why when her belly grew bigger, she was alone and by her self because her people shunned her. This is why she left the city and wished to die because of the severe blame that they put on her. And this is why Allah says she kept her "chastity" and their accusation was false. This is also why when the Angel appeared to give her the glad tiding she said "No man has touched, I am not a baghiya ( a *****)". This is why when she brought back the child to her people, they said "Whose child is this?"...but she only pointed to Isa Ibn MAryam...who in infancy defended his mother.

You deny all this and "entertain" the thought that Mariam Aliha salam had slept with a man? This is a grave thing that you say. And one that makes you even more than an extremist!

Let's stay on topic.
Because we have proof there was no literal clay to be made out of, it would be foolhearty to believe in something which isn't even definitively literal according to the collective references in the Qur'an, nevermind science.

I'm not boasting, you're simply taking only face value understandings.

I have taken a course on Quantum Mechanics and Modern Physics; no I'm not an expert, but I am informed enough to understand the conceptual basis of it, and the conceptual basis, shows your false dichotomy regarding time and space in relation to what's beyond it would not apply.

So Qur'an is not proof for you.

I don't claim to know how; I am claiming that gradually Allah(swt) reveals from his creation how and this is what has come about. You can either live in ignorance of embrace reality under the guise of dogma and false piety. Your choice.

Dogma is what you ascribe to brother.

No, I do feel your opposition to evolution is because you don't understand the science behind it.

The reverse is true. You are the one who doesn't understand the science behind it which is why you still haven't debated me on it's "science".

Sorry I mistyped; I mean "he was not a thing" ; Well there is a linguistical difference between "3ayn" (nothingness) and "wa la2 shay" (not a thing); it's important. The verse does not say "khalaqahu min al 3ayn" (created from nothingness) , rather it says " qabel lamo yaku shay" which means "before he had not become a thing". It means he was not a being, not that he was made without components. Even other verses of the Qur'an which talk about clay, water, etc etc say that. You seem to selectively ignore the verses of the Qur'an when it's not convenient.

I don't know if you mistyped again or you trying to fudge the "literal" meaning of the verse to skew/slant the meaning towards your own "dogma".

It is not " qabel lamo yaku shay"

Awala yathkuru alinsanu anna khalaqnahu min qablu walam yaku shayan



Maryam 19:67

^ Check the list of translations. Does any of them say "before he had not become a thing"

See brother.

Here you have shown that it is you who is actually ignorant of much of what is said in Islam.
Don't get stubborn and try to refute me again by changing the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an. And leave this quest of yours to give scientific legitimacy to Qur'an and Islam. If you have doubts about the miracles described in the Qur'an, then it is best to re asses your position here. For at this point you are not even a Mu'tazali. You are something else.

Actually if you know anything about environmental science, we have to take microbiology, genetics and evolution, ecology incorporates genetics and evolution in the curriculum to understand how species form their niches in the Environment.

Then come and debate me on the sciences of evolution in the science forum. I will make a thread there. And we can see who knows more.

If you're arguing the conventional Creationism on the basis of complexity you'll find numerous reasons all over the net why such an argument is nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity



Not confident, informed.




Post the peer reviewed journal here, I don't have time to sift through posts where 90% of the argument is you insulting Goat and posting a few spectral graphs that you have no understanding of.






Well we agree on something I agree, but for me I chose Mu'atzilism because it has the most balanced approached between Sunni and Shi'a.
That's another debate, don't spiral off on this point.



yes Some things; but there's nothing , absolutely nothing in which we MUST believe the creation story literally. we're required to believe, In Allah, the anbiyah/arsal, aktab and wahi. Everything else is based on our understandings and our intellectual explorations.




Thats' true, but you can't deny that's a contributing factor; when individuals like Mujib want to promote this demogogic cartel who want to monopolize a power structure for themselves, by claiming exclusive dictate over Truth, which would be fine if the supplied some tangible merit behind it.



but clay is mixed with the components in so much as trace elements which could come together to compose amino acids.




Allah 3alim, it's irrelevant to the discussion.






Scientific. Theologic is not rigorous.



What is science? Knowledge of Nature really, Nature is made/governed by God, so the legitimacy of the Qur'an would come from God's creation.



why do you keep repeating it?




if that's the case we may as well be Hindus, God uses metaphorism, not Anthropomorphism.




Yes, please



No , we should understand stuff in proper context, that's what I am saying.




I just go by verifiable evidence, it's not a claim of infallibility but simply looking at things by what we know by available references which confirm it,.










Ah yes but I don't do that, no such standard of aqidah requires me to believe in such matters literally. It's merely some invention you're imposing on me.

And who's being arrogant and acting all knowing here? Hmm?






The word extreme has been *******ized and this is plain evidence. It's become some trump card to discredit someone. Not that it doesn't have legit usages. But if I was actually extreme, I'd be shunning Islam like Baygham does on accounts of stuff like this. The Fact I can see the underlying consistency shows that I can balance Natural reality with Revelation in a way which is universally applicable.

Maybe this constant accusations of heresy, one without an explicit basis, is what should really be labeled extreme?



You may not realize it; but thinking back to my Archtypes/Model debate this would actually affirm my point. Of the Model of Mankind, in the world of Similitudes.




yes at least you're paying attention; and if you look at things closely; you keep posting references that corroborate that. For if there was no archetypal Adam, Muhammad(saw) would not be able to make claims like "I was a Prophet when Adam was between Body and Spirit".





Yeah dogma based on experiments, chemical principles, analsyis, empirical research etc etc.



Fair enough, but the idea still holds in the sense of how chromosomes form. Now speciation may seem "random mutation" but it's not. It occurs due to specfic conditions. Who's to say evolution is not an intelligent system? I believe it is, the ebb and flow of different species only reflects nature.



But it's not random it's based on existing information sets and their combinatoric relationships. They're organized by natural forces and reactions.

Just nonsense.


Come to the science forum...

because you lack the Aqidah and the necessary background in Islam to debate with me on what Islam is, what khalq means.
If you are calling me a dogmatic literalist of the Quran. You are a dogmatic literalist of evolution. So what remains is the "Science".


Salam

[Alchemist]

i am intrigued by this debate

alchemist, if u havent alredy answered this, i would like for you to give your intake on this verse in the context of the debate.




Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

az-Zumar 39:67
And they have not honored Allah with the honor that is due to Him; and the whole earth shall be in His grip on the day of resurrection and the heavens rolled up in His right hand; glory be to Him, and may He be exalted above what they associate (with Him).

“Allah (Exalted is He) created seven heavens, one above another, and seven earths, one below another. [The time it takes to travel] from the highest earth to the lowest heaven is five hundred years, and the distance between each heaven and the next is also a journey of five hundred years. There is water above the seventh heaven, and the Throne of the All-Merciful One ['Arsh ar-Rahman] is above the water. Allah (Exalted is He) is upon the Throne, and beneath Him there are seventy thousand veils of light, of darkness, and of what else He knows best.”

hadith in Sunan Abu Dawood,Ibn Maajah
It's reported by Ibn Khuzaymah (At-Tawheed, 105); Al-Bayhaqee (Al-Asmaa’ wa’s-Sifaat, 401)
It's saheeh by Ibn Al-Qayyim in Ijtimaa’ Al-Juyoosh Al-Islamiyyah and Ad-Dhahabee in Al-‘Uluw


Somethings are just beyound our understanding, so we say Allahu A3lam.


Edit:

OK.

I know you want a "Scientific" explanation for the verse.

The Scientists looked through their telescopes at the stars all around them the noticed a Red Shift dobbler effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

From this they deduced that that everything is moving farther and farther away from us...so "logically"...at one point everything was much, much, much more closer...in every direction we look, the other galaxies, stars and planets are moving away from us...Curiously enough even the sun's distance from the earth is increasing...

Second edit:

LOL

I just realized right now why the second part of the verse means so much to pro-evolutionists.
They think that because it says "Everything is made of water" it means that everything was first created in the oceans? "The primordial soup"? That because it says everything is made OUT OF water, it means IN water?
They are taking a great leap of faith, and taking the word of Allah totally out of context. And another sign of delusion.
Evolution says that first life came in the water, then species evolved to occupy the land? Do you know how bizarre and ridiculous the story of evolution is?
If you ask any astronomer, cosmologist, physicist...any scientists ..."how did water come to the earth?" they will say, in honesty, "I don't know". Why do other planets not have water? Why are we always looking for water on other planets? They want to have you believe that a long time ago, there was one continental plate and the rest of the globe was filled with water. Just like that. Now imagine the planet with all of it's land mass on one side and water all on the other side. This would give the planet an odd shape. Since such a distribution would make all the waters only 4 miles deep all around, and with all the mass concentrated on side of the planet, earth would look like an oval and not a "sphere". Are there any oval planets out there? Is America going to drift across the pacific until it crashes into Japan? Yes. I am digressing. But there is a lot of theories out there ...and that's all they are..theories. And to think that "All living things are made out of water" means "all living things came from water" is absurd. The Qur'an does not endorse the theory of evolution in anyway..not even remotely. And those who try to make evolution fit in with the Qur'an are trying VERY hard to bend meaning of the verses. If you believe in evolution, that humans, evolved from primate apes, you lose that aspect of you that Allah had the angels bow down to Adam for.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Basically Alchemist is doing what he accuses me of doing, and that is rejecting verses in the Qur'an what it doesn''t suit his taste. The water as being the source of living organisms, which would include humans would thus render all other verses which describe God making Adam out of clay as being metaphoric. How easy to work with that if we ignore the verses about stages and being made out of water right?


and Alchemist the reason I don't debate the science is because so many others have debated the science with you; what I would contribute wouldn't add anything, your shallow responses where you skirt and divert are atrocious and revealing ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Midnight Sun and Goat have handled you well on that. I could too, maybe more rigorously than those two, but we'd essentially review the same material.


Your only response to anything is "oh my that's ridiculous" without any actual scientific explanation as to why.But shallow and superficial attempts at disguisng ignorance as "reasoning".

Furthermore you seem to get a LOT wrong in posts, as if you have selective reading. For example I said that if we accept the God Hypothesis then, sure then God used Mary's Egg to make Jesus, and filled in all the appropriate chromosomes by his "power". You ignored the God Hypothesis part. But alas, you respond by pretending your position has merit.

The fact you're actually trying to justify ignorant Mufasirrun saying the world is flat and insinuating that science's evidence that the world is actually round as being suspect; demonstrates you have nothing rational to contribute.

I knew there was something off about your logical abilities ever since you kept trying to convince me Jews were the root of all evil in the world. But I thought perhaps you were just into conspiracy theories. Now I see it's something else entirely.

You have taken Mortals interpretations, as God's words, exactly what those oh so "nefarious Jews" did. Look to Nature .....Nature is from God ...and God would confirm what he means from Nature.

Thats the only feasible source we have that isn't mired by The Two Jalal's superficial understanding of the world.

and the warped part is if we do a google search, your quotations from the Mufassireen are coming from the Anti-Islam Christian Polemic Site who are trying to portray Islam as a false religion on account of this. Thanks for helping their cause, are you sure you're not one of these "evil Jews" you were trying to persuade me into believe caused every world catastrophe, even European Imperialism?