Evolution contradicts Islam

[طالب]

@GYE
I just don't understand why you're so keen to defend this disgusting man? He is a hypocrite, makes "Islamic" books but is the worst Muslim of them all.

You should be spitting on him instead you are promoting him. I think he is a criminal and a pervert and if that makes me a spinning DJ with sugar on top then so be it.

[Baygham]

the doubt that the air is pure in tora bora now, baygham. i assume it was bombed with depleted uranium.

Depleted uranium will effect your immune system, thus while your meaningless journey in the hell hole called world is shortened, your turn to see 72 virgins comes that much quicker. Secondly in the absence of any intoxicating hallucinogens called science, to drag you back to reality, it is a perfect place to be.

[طالب]

^^^

[graveyardofempires]

@GYE
I just don't understand why you're so keen to defend this disgusting man? He is a hypocrite, makes "Islamic" books but is the worst Muslim of them all.

You should be spitting on him instead you are promoting him. I think he is a criminal and a pervert and if that makes me a spinning DJ with sugar on top then so be it.

who told you to think that?

what is your evidence?are you just trying to avoid the question and instead spewing the false propganda of the opposition who can't challenge the content cuz they are exposed.

why should i believe what you say,someone who doesnt even believe in any values to whom truth is irrelevant and with lies you can just do fine.

[faye]

Depleted uranium will effect your immune system, thus while your meaningless journey in the hell hole called world is shortened, your turn to see 72 virgins comes that much quicker. Secondly in the absence of any intoxicating hallucinogens called science, to drag you back to reality, it is a perfect place to be.

yeah? tell that to the parents of still births, children with leukemia, and birth defects.

[graveyardofempires]

My Turkish friends say everyone in Turkey hates him and also he looks like some kind of pedophile:



Why do you like him so much, are you a member of the BAV or something?

your friend probbly thinks like you and he probably is a kamalist.

yes i respect him very much and what do mean with this BAV?
what makes you think he looks like a pedophile?how many have you seen in your childhood?

you are all of your pundits problem is you are looking for guilable people but when confronted you run like mice.

[Mujib]

Good luck respecting a

How is his personal life relevant in a discussion of his arguments against evolution? Have you sought out the details of evolutionists' personal lives?

[Mujib]

From Shaykh Nuh Keller's important article, Evolution and Islam:

Summary of Islamic Conclusions

Allah alone is Master of Existence. He alone causes all that is to be and not to be. Causes are without effect in themselves, but rather both cause and effect are created by Him. The causes and the effects of all processes, including those through which plant and animal species are individuated, are His work alone. To ascribe efficacy to anything but His action, whether believing that causes (a) bring about effects in and of themselves; or (b) bring about effects in and of themselves through a capacity Allah has placed in them, is to ascribe associates to Allah (shirk). Such beliefs seem to be entailed in the literal understanding of "natural selection" and "random mutation," and other evolutionary concepts, unless we understand these processes as figurative causes, while realizing that Allah alone is the agent. This is apart from the consideration of whether they are true or not.

As for claim that man has evolved from a non-human species, this is unbelief (kufr) no matter if we ascribe the process to Allah or to "nature," because it negates the truth of Adam's special creation that Allah has revealed in the Qur'an. Man is of special origin, attested to not only by revelation, but also by the divine secret within him, the capacity for ma'rifa or knowledge of the Divine that he alone of all things possesses. By his God-given nature, man stands before a door opening onto infinitude that no other creature in the universe can aspire to. Man is something else.

[graveyardofempires]

this will explain whats going on with Mountain Goat
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed


YouTube - Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Part 1 of 10)

[faye]

she said she can't verify the literal bit.

The literal bit is in reference to the Qur'anic Ayats that I quoted. So basically she is objecting to the Qur'an it self. But she is trying to be sly about it like the troll that she is and when I confronted her on it, she played stupid. So either she is stupid and doesn't know what she said, or she is smart enough to play stupid and pretend to be on your side.

verify-to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony
literal-true to fact,not exaggerated;actual or factual
you choose to take it as literal where i would consider that it may be symbolism. i didn't say that it is not so.
if you choose to continue behaving as thick skulled as you have been, there is no need for me to act dumb, you are doing a good enough job for the 2 of us
oh, and i love it when you get mad

[Alchemist]

Thats easy to get out off, Alchemist is simply going to say that Allah does not have any law to follow including the premise of 'Reducto Ad-Absurdum' and 'False Dichotomy'.
He could bend light this way or that, coalesce atoms from this or that soup, pretty much do as his whim desires or if he lacks desire and whims than what ever mechanism he has is worse than a random number generator for it can be as random in its expression as it chooses to be.

All the data that you see, hear, feel and are constantly confronted with day and day out is just the product of hallucinogens that are circulating in western academic circles. In the caves of Tora Bora, where the air is pure such flights of fancy are not witnessed.

hi mini toromana,

if you got something to say, say it in plain english.
Put the spliff down, clear your mind, and spare me your weak attempts at poetry.

[Alchemist]

verify-to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony
literal-true to fact,not exaggerated;actual or factual
you choose to take it as literal where i would consider that it may be symbolism. i didn't say that it is not so.
if you choose to continue behaving as thick skulled as you have been, there is no need for me to act dumb, you are doing a good enough job for the 2 of us
oh, and i love it when you get mad

so basically you are saying that the quran is not factual, or actual, or that you can't say it is.
This thread was for those who have a religious concern, know Islam and care about it.

Your opinion is not appreciated, or welcomed. Please leave troll. And stop pestering me.

[ScimitarXEdge]

that is racism in itself

since you are to enslave or destroy the less evolved(the africans and brown people)and the white man is th emost evolved.

so who is closer to the monkey?

and the plot thickens, how is that "in itself racism"? when it's identifying that people are of common origins and we're all merely just a variation of a common set of people? (O_o)

As for your argument it's nonsequittur; because if it that was true, why are most evolutionary biologists not racist?

[ScimitarXEdge]

[QUOTE=Alchemist;419225]Ah here comes he comes. Finally.



I know the definition bro. You don't have to teach me that

False!

I never said this. But you assume this to be true. Allah in the Qur'an asks man to reflect on "the process". Rather all of biology is based on the process. To deny the process is to deny biology. Am I being this absurd? Biology is based on stages. The stages of the development of organisms, from zygote, to fetus, to infant, to child, to adolescence, to man.

Straw man
I never said you said this I'm summarizing your argument; also coupling it with your MSN argument, which we had a few days ago. Please read the quotation you quoted.

Your argument was that Evolution isn't real because you believe God can just create things by saying "Kun"; we agree, but this does not mean that "Kun" and the evolutionary processes don't coexist, for what's "kun" for Allah(swt) is not always "kun" for us, it can undergo sequences of change and variation. Just like all matter in the universe has gone through at some point. Your contention was that evolution would thus imply Allah(swt) needed to depend on time/finite material forces i.e. this would violate his sovereignty.

What you are confusing is the distinct processes of one form of development with another form.

Actually no, I used reducitio ad-absurdum; your reasoning for not accepting Evolution on account that it requires sequences and differential gradients to engender a species, it can't be real because it would violate the idea that Allah(swt) creates by saying "kun" and it is; even though even in the Qur'an , even in a metaphoric understanding, it describes a process in creating Adam (as) not merely saying "Kun"; although that doesn't preclude that kun may have been used at some higher level of things. Now if we take the idea that all processes run on the same dictum as evolution; that is , (time)*(differential gradient)= development + engendering, then this is where it becomes absurd. Now of course you see a "distinction" because the others are more directly perceivable as they don't require scales of geologic or stellar time.

That is you are confusing the life cycle of individual species, which are distinct, and attributing it to something totally unrelated, i.e, speciation. You are making this assumptive jump by believing that Allah has to create one life form from another, where as Allah says, He creates what He wills, meaning his creations come to be fully formed without "flaws" or "in between" stages.

I haven't compared life cycles of species. I have compared processes, things which depend on other preexisting events, conditions and elements to exist. This is the crux of why you cannot accept evolution as already highlighted. You're again positioning a false dichotomy here. You're assuming That any sort of sequential development of a species contradicts the postulate "Allah creates what he wills". If anything it seems your argument and the construct it conveys is more in rejection of Allah(swt)'s sovereignty than the opposing view.

The life cycle of one organism is distinct. To say that evolution is true, means that life cycles of multiple organisms are linked, and thus each organism branches off one another.

exactly; if there's no evidence, then how is it that all organisms have essentially the same biochemical components, like proteins, amino acids, fats, sugars etc. Why aren't animals made of rocks and humans made of air. or better yet, why aren't Humans Literally a product of silicates which are in clay? The answer is simple; evidence that we're we are all links, and it's demonstrated through the biochemical cursors.

There is no proof for this belief.

no proof, but we can see one species of iguana become another and thus cannot mate with the parent species and/or two different species which can mate but produce a sterile offspring. It's not that proof doesn't exist, it is just that some individuals due to some very absurd understanding of God Literally using his hands to create Humans (which contradicts the "kun" as it is argument you made in MSN, if we take it LITERALLY of course), think that accepting such evidence would mean rejecting Allah(swt) and thus will reject such evidence.

Allah says in the Quran that he creates what He wills, some crawling on their bellies, some on 4 legs and some on 2, some fly and some swim, and not that he created first an organism that swims, then out of that he created one that walks, and then another that flies. This is your imagination at play.

I get it, but the statement itself doesn't mean he didn't "will" evolution and that it was his "will" for creatures to be created with 4 legs and some 2 and some fly and swim, through a process of evouition.

I mean there's a verse where he says "he made all life out of water"; we're alive so the clay, so do these stories contradict? Because clay isn't "water", so either the story can't be literal or the Qur'an contadicts itself.
We know from linguistic understanding of Arabic that idioms are used in the Qur'an and use of their analogical properties we can distinguish which verses are literal and which are not. A verse like "all living things were created from water" is literal, A clay Adam, is figurative. Even when we deal with the idea of God's will, the Arabic does not indicate that it must be understood in the way you portray.

You are committing the fallacy of equivocation by using the word "processes" broadly. There is one process called reproduction. And this is valid. However, another process that has no merit in Islam is what you refer to "Speciation". This process is false. Reproduction is attested to in the Qur'an mutliple times. However speciation never! This is part of your own doctrine and it is outside of Islam.

That's funny you're creating a fallacy of equivocation by misusing the word "will" narrowly. if God can will something to existence, he can certainly will evolution.

Your argument hs is horribly circular, The process isn't valid because it's false and therefore not valid.

Evolution never represented in the Qur'an?

Surah Al Nuh ayah 13-15

ma lakum la2 ta2rajouna lilahi waqar. wa qad khalaqkum waqara?
Alam tarou kayfa khalaqa Allahu sab'a samawat tibaqa?

Ah such a materialist!
Again, this is part of your own narration of what happened.
Still it is a false analogy. The formation of the heavens and the earth is also described in the Qur'an. And I am not saying that "Time" is the factor here, since even Allah says that it's formation took some "Days". It is authentically reported on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra) that the Prophet said: "Allah , Most Blessed, Most High, says: "The son of Adam wrongs Me: He curses time, though I am time: In My Hands are all things and I cause the night to follow the day." In another narration, He says: "Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah ."

Since I already addressed this point, I won't repeat myself. But if we take these ahadith literally, that means Allah(swt) is finitely bound by physical constraints since his hands "turn night into day" and also that day and night are not due to physical processes due to gravity. Which contradicts what you're claiming here anyways since you said yourself that Qur'an describes the Universe came into existence in stages. And also if we take this literally then it's saying Allah(swt) is finite, because time is sequential pattern of events, and thus can have described in discrete intervals, is Allah(swt) discrete intervals? LOL

Still you are confusing the narrative of "evolution" which means to describe the creation of Man, by tangentially bringing in the formation of the universe. (There are even gaps in that story, for there are many things that are still unaccounted form when we even talk about the big bang). Again, it is a shame that you hold the narrative of science in higher regard than the narrative that is divine.

Not at all I'm bringing up the creation of the Universe; since it demonstrates how it's creation was by "kun"; and yet also described by stages. Therefore there's nothing that precludes the same condition for evolution of species. I didn't even mention the big bang? I just said the universe has an origin, and that it developed in stages. Big Bang hasn't played into this argument yet ....but I'm not a big bang person, I'm more on the side of the M-Theorist camp.

"bananas are a class of fruits, therefore fish should not be eaten with milk"
Rrrriiight...

nice try scimitar.

Amateurish, but also revealing how much you really don't know about the subject we're discussing.

[Alchemist]

and the plot thickens, how is that "in itself racism"? when it's identifying that people are of common origins and we're all merely just a variation of a common set of people? (O_o)

As for your argument it's nonsequittur; because if it that was true, why are most evolutionary biologists not racist?

if we make a list of ALL evolutionary biologist in the past 200 years, most would turn out to be racist and eugenicists. Galton, the father of eugenics was a staunch believing evolutionist. Hitler's mein kempf (my struggle) influenced by Darwin's, Struggle for Existence, also from Ernst Haeckel, who published a book, in 1905, entitled, Der Kampf um den Entwicklungs-Gedanken ("The Struggle over Evolutionary Thinking").


Darwin wrote:

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time, the anthropomorphous apes . . . will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro [sic] or Australian and the gorilla.


variation on a scale from ape, to negorid to caucasian.