Islam and Mullahs used in the service against Imperial Corruption and Their slaves.

[khushal]

Alchemist, Wrayun, Mujib, Haneef and several other members usually rely on classical mut'azili arguments when they enter into discussions about faith and belief in Islam.

But Scimitar is the only honest person among them. He does not lie about his true beliefs like the other people I have mentioned.

this is interesting. Now I see why I agreed more with your posts more than I did with theirs even though you were the rude one.

[randolph85]

mind u, this salafi believes god literally has hands and sits on a throne. take everything he says with a grain of salt.

[Wrayun]

Alchemist, Wrayun, Mujib, Haneef and several other members usually rely on classical mut'azili arguments when they enter into discussions about faith and belief in Islam.

But Scimitar is the only honest person among them. He does not lie about his true beliefs like the other people I have mentioned.

First of all, I didn't know what or who Mutzali is/are, and I be honest, Scimitar introduced me to them. And so far I'm liking what I see.

I, unlike you, don't consider Bukhari, or Muslim, to be prophets, nor saints, nor above Quran, and I definitely think that they were fallible. I am also 1000% certain that much of what they recorded, is perverted, and hearsay. I am also certain, that many of their hadiths, are politicized from the very beginning. I don't buy what they call "science", behind the narrations. I solely rely on the Quran, within it's historical context. I don't reject hadith, but I only use it as a reference. You, and other Salafist, Alhal Sunnah, and co. are more then welcome to mimic the life of the Propeht, and be just like him. The problem is when you take your own rigged interpretations, perspectives, and shove it down the throat of others. And if anyone doesn't agree with you, you are quick to issue a fatwa for their beheading. All the while living in a kafir western country paying them taxes and enjoying their institutions. But I guess there is a Hadith for that as well to justify it. Since I'm not a zealot like you, I don't have to be two faced, a munafiq and a hypocrite, who uses some twisted logic to benefit off the kufaar for your own sick and detrimental purpose.

I am sure that even Catya, laughs at you as a fool, as she has not accepted the religion of Islam, but seems to suffer from orientalist romanticism towards Muslims. Just like those Western scholars who "acknowledged" the "scientific miracles" of the Quran, but never accepted Islam in their lives. I wonder why.

[Fahd]

wrayun i read some of your posts and you remind me of the new mullah here in makka LOL

[BarakzaiAbdali]

First of all, I didn't know what or who Mutzali is/are, and I be honest, Scimitar introduced me to them. And so far I'm liking what I see.

I, unlike you, don't consider Bukhari, or Muslim, to be prophets, nor saints, nor above Quran, and I defiantly think that they were fallible. I am also 1000% certain that much of what they recorded, is perverted, and hearsay. I am also certain, that many of their hadiths, are politicized from the very beginning. I don't buy what they call "science", behind the narrations. I solely rely on the Quran, within it's historical context. I don't reject hadith, but I only use it as a reference. You, and other Salafist, Alhal Sunnah, and co. are more then welcome to mimic the life of the Propeht, and be just like him. The problem is when you take your own rigged interpretations, perspectives, and shove it down the throat of others. And if anyone doesn't agree with you, you are quick to issue a fatwa for their beheading. All the while living in a kafir western country paying them taxes and enjoying their institutions. But I guess there is a Hadith for that as well to justify it. Since I'm not a zealot like you, I don't have to be two faced, a munafiq and a hypocrite, who uses some twisted logic to benefit off the kufaar for your own sick and detrimental purpose.

I am sure that even Catya, laughs at you as a fool, as she has not accepted the religion of Islam, but seems to suffer from ordinalist romanticism towards Muslims. Just like those Western scholars who "acknowledged" the "scientific miracles" of the Quran, but never accepted Islam in their lives. I wonder why.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/brown.html

Brilliantly put together polemic website.

Here is another section:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/

Hadith collection was admirable and fairly reliable.

[Wrayun]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/brown.html

Brilliantly put together polemic website.

Here is another section:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/

Hadith collection was admirable and fairly reliable.

Manana,

The biggest issue I have with Hadiths, is the idea of repeating what the Christians did i.e. giving divine attributes to words of men. This becomes even more dangerous when certain schools, scholars, mullahs try to impose what's in the hadiths, or how they interpret them, to be mandatory law. These various schools also do takfir on each other. Sanger is a prime example of what I speak of, however he hasn't killed anyone yet because he lives in a society where that sort of nonsense isn't tolerated. Or maybe, he is a keyboard "authentic" Muslim, and not an actual one.

But in societies where you can get away with it, it is a huge problem. Particularly in Pukhtoonkhwa.

I'll give you an example. About 2 months back, in our village a young boy had started hanging around this group of Talibs (not Taliban but Talibs as religious students...I guess most Taliban are that). Slowly his behavior changed. He started telling his mother and father what he considered haram things in the house i.e TV, Computer, and his mother constantly watching Indian soaps. His father also a religious man, challenged his son. The son brought "proofs" after "proofs" while his father brought his "evidence" and tried to refute him. Things went from bad to worse. One day, the idiot, went out, brought an AK, and shot his mother and father for not removing these haram things from the house. His younger brother came out running from his room, called on him, recognized him, and he ended up dead too. Now he is mafroor.

This is a saka, blood son & brother, killing his whole family, because he was convinced, that TV, VCR, COMPUTER, are haram. Where did he get his evidence, proof from? From the people he hung around, and from the Hadiths they produced for him.

There are also other things, like 50 year old men marrying 10 year old girls because it is "Sunnat".

A 14 year old blew himself just recently, and I wonder what was used to justify this action for him? How he was convinced, and what was used to convince him. The Quran? I think not.

I can list many other personal stories and experiences, but some other time.

[کیش]

^^^^^ hadiths don't tell you to kill your family If they don't agree with you. The guy was just a jackass. Am sure they are a lot of jackasses their.

[Wrayun]

wrayun i read some of your posts and you remind me of the new mullah here in makka LOL

Should I take that as a complement or insult? The funny thing about Saudi Arabia, a predominantly "authentic" Salafi Muslim society, happens to be the ultimate source of support for various dictators around the Muslim world who just happens to serve the agenda of non-Muslims i.e Israel. But I am sure, there is a Hadith for that as well. There is also a sahi authentic Hadith for the justification of selling oil, the raw material, that mobilizes the war machinery which kills and maims thousands of Muslims every day. And those Muslims that don't, like the Ikhwan al Muslimeen, or the Shia aka "Rafida" Iran, are Kufaar, worthy of death, according to these very authentic, true followers of Islam.

It's also interesting that when ever certain nations need an excuse to infiltrate, invade, or "liberate" resource rich Muslim nations, these Salafis are right there to provide one.

[Wrayun]

^^^^^ hadiths don't tell you to kill your family If they don't agree with you. The guy was just a jackass. Am sure they are a lot of jackasses their.

Yes, they don't, but they can play a motivating role. I'm sure if his comrades had told him to be tolerant of his fathers, his family, and their beliefs, he wouldn't have done what he did. But usually, their amirs, gives them what we say goota (finger).

[khushal]

Wrayon,
First of all is this stroy fact or made up because there is propaganda going on about people that hang out with Talibs or so called religious people, they will poisin their kids mind and do the unthinkable like how you described it in your story. First the Pakistani government was a partner with the CIA and the saudis in exremenizing the pashtun population, now those same people have turned against the State and they are trying to reverse the effect. the only people that are suffering are the pashtuns in this experiment. Dont blame the hadiths for this, blame your idiot government.
One thing I agree with you is that the Quaran supercedes any hadith.

[Wrayun]

Wrayon,
First of all is this stroy fact or made up because there is propaganda going on about people that hang out with Talibs or so called religious people, they will poisin their kids mind and do the unthinkable like how you described it in your story. First the Pakistani government was a partner with the CIA and the saudis in exremenizing the pashtun population, now those same people have turned against the State and they are trying to reverse the effect. the only people that are suffering are the pashtuns in this experiment. Dont blame the hadiths for this, blame your idiot government.
One thing I agree with you is that the Quaran supercedes any hadith.

The story is true. I can PM you the specifics if you like. There is good and bad in Talibs. The Talibs can be divided between Salafis, Deobandis, Tablighis, and Ahl As-Sunnah etc. These guys fight each other quite often, all over interpretations, Hadiths, scholars and what not. So much so, they usually fight each other over Adhan timing. If they see that one particular school of thought made Adhan a few mins earlier or later, fatwas are issued over loud speakers. Our villages have become battle grounds for the sects.

My cousin who is staunch Salafi, raised in the West, former Gothic rocker, visited Ahl As-Sunnah mosque on friday back home. Supposedly during the prayer he said his Ameen out loud, or he said Allahu Akbar out loud...one of the two. At the end of the prayer, the Mullah who should have been paying attention and devoted to his prayer, asked "Da koom kanzeer de shan kaar wako? Sok wooo? Porta shee!" Everyone looked toward my cousin, who slowly made his get away. If he hadn't, who knows what could have happened.

He had to find a Salafi mosque in another village to pray without the fear of retribution.

[khushal]

The story is true. I can PM you the specifics if you like. There is good and bad in Talibs. The Talibs can be divided between Salafis, Deobandis, Tablighis, and Ahl As-Sunnah etc. These guys fight each other quite often, all over interpretations, Hadiths, scholars and what not. So much so, they usually fight each other over Adhan timing. If they see that one particular school of thought made Adhan a few mins earlier or later, fatwas are issued over loud speakers. Our villages have become battle grounds for the sects.

My cousin who is staunch Salafi, raised in the West, former Gothic rocker, visited Ahl As-Sunnah mosque on friday back home. Supposedly during the prayer he said his Ameen out loud, or he said Allahu Akbar out loud...one of the two. At the end of the prayer, the Mullah who should have been paying attention and devoted to his prayer, asked "Da koom kanzeer de shan kaar wako? Sok wooo? Porta shee!" Everyone looked toward my cousin, who slowly made his get away. If he hadn't, who knows what could have happened.

He had to find a Salafi mosque in another village to pray without the fear of retribution.

I know what your talking about, do you know who the panj peiree are. I was praying at their mosque and someone came to me telling me I prayed wrong. i ignored him but my point was that the government is resonsible for this and this is now a threat to their very existence.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Taliban are not a sectarian movement. There are people from all sects among their ranks. The thing that unites people from all regions and different sects is the fact that the movement is a broad grass roots movement.

And regarding the hadith rejecting people: their common fallacy is that they keep saying that they only trust the qur'an and they claim that hadith is fabcirated by people.

But here is the problem. Qur'an and the way it is read and pronounced is made possible with hadith.

SOmeone who rejects hadith rejects qur'an.

This is why a hadith reject is technically an apostate.

[Wrayun]

SOmeone who rejects hadith rejects qur'an.

This is why a hadith reject is technically an apostate.

See what I mean. So now something that "he" a human said, and "she" a human said, is equivalent to what He, as in God, the Almighty, said. Exactly what the Christians did. We now have our very own Peter, John, and Paul in the form of Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Huraira.

BTW, do you believe in marrying a 6 year old to a 50 year old, and allowing him to consummate the marriage at 9 years of age? This, according to authentic Hadiths, is the Sunnat of the Prophet Mohammad, who is an example for the rest of the Muslims to follow. Thus many people, esply in Afghanistan and Pakistan, areas like Yemen and Saudi, men ages 80 are marrying 12 and 14 year olds.

Do you think it proper, just? How do you deal with this issue, if someone doesn't believe in this or subscribe to it i.e reject it. They might say that it was a special circumstance. Or, let's take a look at it from an historical perspective, times were different. But, others, will argue, that the Sunnat is for all times, and the Prophet lead examples for the rest to follow. The result is that most often the little girl that they marry happens to come from illiterate, uneducated, and poor Muslim families. You'll never find a rich, modest, educated Muslim father or brother, just like you, who will allow their 9 year old to marry a man of that age.

How do you deal with this "authentic" hadith?

Go ahead, make your circles.

Me, on the other hand, I reject it. Not only because it's morally irrelevant today, but because I have other reasons why this can't be true. That this authentic hadith is total bullshyt. Contradictory events and statements exist. Am I an apostate now? Oh well... at least my 9 year old daughter, or sister, won't have to be violated. You on the other hand, well, as long it's not you being probed by an elderly man at the tender age of 9, wouldn't mind.

Hadiths are good as references, but that's where the buck should stop. If someone want's literally follow and do what's in the hadith, thats their choice. Something we Pukhtoons understood for a very long time amongst us as the Sunnat of the Prophet. It was not mandatory, it was not fard. In our villages, the elders will teach us that there are mandatory things in Islam, and then there is the Sunnat. If you want to be all pious and righteous, Sunnat is recommended for you. But if you don't, its okay, as long as you do the mandatory. It's your CHOICE.

And to be honest, people did follow Sunnat, and you knew that those men with beards, are indeed pious because they CHOOSE to lead that life. There was no force. People had respect for such men. They really dedicated their lives to faith and God out of true will. There was NO COMPULSION.

Things, however changed, when the Deobandis and Salafis started to pour into our villages. Now, Sunnat was made mandatory by Mullahs like Sangar, and hadiths, the saying and narrations of men, became the divine words of law, and God, rejecting or not following of which equated to apostasy ie. Sanger example above. The result of that, every thieve, criminal, warlord, drug lord, boy raping crook became a hajji with a huge beard i.e .follower of Sunnat. Everyone has a nice beard, even the crooks. Everyone is following "Sunnat", those who smile at you at the afternoon prayer, and rob you at night.

I call that ultimate form of blasphemy.

[شمله ور خراساني]

You want to have a discussion about each and every one of your problems, I invite you to open a thread so we can discuss this.

We will deal with every problem you have with hadith one at a time.

I am more than willing to have a discussion with you. So take the effort and start a thread.