Has anyone read the Quran?

[3.14159265...]

Thanks Abeille.

Alchemist, perhaps it is too advanced for me... but that is not what the Quran says, but I could be understanding it wrong, right?

[Alchemist]

I take it that only a Muslim can understand the Quran?

If so, that is like saying: only those who have the Holy Ghost can understand why Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God and the Holy Ghost. How can you understand what the Trinity is if one of the three is the Holy Ghost, something which you need in the first place in order to understand the Trinity? It is circular.

As such, how can I understand the Quran if I first need to be a believer, and how do I become a believer when the base of Islam is the Quran? Without understanding the Quran, unless I first become a believer, and if the requirement to understand the Quran is to be a believer, then I will never become a believer? It is circular.

There must be alternative way; otherwise, religion, its base and its foundation is susceptible to mockery. Or is it that those who follow it blindly think it is the only way to be a believer because they took the leap of faith? If so, then this leaves another important issue to be solved: which religion is correct, if blind leap of faith is a requirement in order to become a believer?


I am supposing that you are not suggesting us to test the waters of every religion in order to find the correct one?

Coming back to my original question: do we need to be a believer in order to understand the Quran?

Yes, only Muslims can understand the Qur'an, but then again..our own understanding of it is limited which is why we rely on mufasireen, muhaditheen, and ulama of deen to expound on it. Even when the Qur'an was revealed, it's meaning had to be explained by close companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him.
The medium is the message, if you don't understand the medium, you won't get the message. For example, the idea of predestination seems totally paradoxical to you...how could you believe that Allah has written your destiny already and believe that you are still responsible for your action? Paradoxical, yes...but circular? Not quite. Like wise, Allah says in the Qur'an that he seals the sight and hearing of some disbelievers...now is this literal? or fictional? How would you understand that?
Likewise your Holy Ghost analogy was a fail...since you do not even understand it your self you failed to make a plausible, intelligible analogy of it. The real controversy is surrounding the issue of the "Spirit"...what is it? No one knows for sure.. but is believing in it circular? I don't think so...I think many western philosophers have posited their opinions on these question..hegel, descartes... the issue of mind/body has been beaten over and over and even modern day psychologists cannot come up with a neat solution to the "binding problem". Reality is paradoxical.
The issue of the trinity is not completely christian, there are also unitarian christains that do not ascribe to the trinity...and there are many mystery religions that also ascribe to the trinity. However this again goes on a tangent issue and bares little resemblance to what is presented in the Qur'an...or even the new testament.

So in short...without ever stepping into a physics classroom in highschool, you can't expect to sit in a university level 3 theoretical physics class and "understand" anything written on the board ..even if you do believe it blindly. And yes, there are muslims who just follow their religion by imitation..without actually understanding it. If you fear Allah as much as you fear the police when you run over a red light... then we'd be living in a totally different reality. And this ties back to the analogy of the cave..in that most people are engrossed in the immediate reality...and since perception is primary...their minds become molded passively by their environment..their parents, society and its institutions etc. Before you even begin to read the Qur'an you'd need to clear your mind of any unchecked presuppositions and to do that you'd need to know your self better. Cleanliness, of body and mind, is a condition prior to opening of the Qur'an...then refugee from the whisper's of shaitan..and beginning in the name of Allah.
I hope I haven't confused the issue ...

[Alchemist]

Thanks Abeille.

Alchemist, perhaps it is too advanced for me... but that is not what the Quran says, but I could be understanding it wrong, right?

Oh rely?

What does the Qur'an say pi? Because I have no clue as to what you are eluding to.
And given your previous record of misquotation from the Qur'an, it is safer if you make direct references and no more inferences.

[3.14159265...]

Would you like me to quote verses that say the Quran is clear, and sent as a mercy? That is what I was referencing.

I am not sure whether you missed Abeille's point or if you ignored it like a politician.

Let me make it simple. Given a body of knowledge A, and two states B and C which an individual can be in. Suppose the only way to go from B to C, is by considering A.

However if the assumption is that the only way to consider A is to be in state C, that means no one in state B can go to state C.

Now replace A, with the Quran, B with disbelief in Islam, and C with belief in Islam.

Or replace A, with the concept of the trinity, B with disbelief in the trinity, and C belief in the trinity.

Be sincere, that is all I ask. That and also be nice.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Honestly, I do not understand why some muslims need to tell the disbelievers constantly that they shouldn't read the quran?

And I for PI, Qur'an is indeed, a clear book. Everybody can understand it. But it does not mean that you can go and interpret any verse without checking the context.

Qur'an was not revealed as paperback. It was revealed verse by verse and often, verses were a direct answer from allah to certain events and cirumstances plus, there are certain verses that describe historic events.

If you reject all of that and try to intepret the qur'an by yourself without any knowledge of the context of the verse you can't benefit from the book at all.

Your attempt at understanding it would be similar to those muslims in Afghanistan who read qur'an as a physical excerise without ever trying to understand what it is about.


Interesting story: When the British occupied India, they would pay Saints and Sufis cash money to prevent people from reading translations or interpretation of quran. ANd they would discourage common people from trying to find out the meaning of the verses in quran. Because the British benefited from a mass of people with blind faith.

The Barelwi Sufi sect was created like that. Similarly, the Mujadidi's in Afghanistan and Pir Jilanis would tell common people not to read commentary of qur'an etc.

This deliberate attempt to prevent muslims from understanding their holy book was a ploy of the rulers.

Today, this anxiety of Muslims and their fear of reading quran and discovering the meaning of its verses has grown into a culture where people think that qur'an is some sort of a magic item which is not revealed for any other purpose but the serve as a false idol you can put up in a dusty shelf and hope that it will give you protection.

Allah revealed the quran for you to read it. So it will guide you.

[3.14159265...]

"Today, this anxiety of Muslims and their fear of reading quran and discovering the meaning of its verses has grown into a culture where people think that qur'an is some sort of a magic item which is not revealed for any other purpose but the serve as a false idol you can put up in a dusty shelf and hope that it will give you protection."

This is the point of this thread. Read the book, only then can we begin to talk about interpretations.

I am tired of people who have not even superficially read the Quran (as I have) acting as though Islam gives them the right to define morality for others based on what they have heard their fathers and mothers say.

We are in complete agreement on this issue.

[Abeille]

As far as I am concerned, it is the "interpretation" of the Quran, by believers, not non-believers, that has divided Muslims. The sad part is that when a non-believer tries to interpret he is advised to seek an expert. Was it not the Muslim "experts" who have divided Islam based on their own interpretation? Oh, let me guess, it is a conspiracy?

Coming back to the topic, just so you all know, God has not only addressed the believers in the Quran, but He has also addressed the non-believers in the Quran. Therefore, all can read it.

From here, I would like to see what are the issues that Pi wants to resolve.

[شمله ور خراساني]

As far as I am concerned, it is the "interpretation" of the Quran, by believers, not non-believers, that has divided Muslims. The sad part is that when a non-believer tries to interpret he is advised to seek an expert. Was it not the Muslim "experts" who have divided Islam based on their own interpretation? Oh, let me guess, it is a conspiracy?

Coming back to the topic, just so you all know, God has not only addressed the believers in the Quran, but He has also addressed the non-believers in the Quran. Therefore, all can read it.

From here, I would like to see what are the issues that Pi wants to resolve.

Muslims who started using Greek logic to interpret quran instead of context were the first group that created alternative interpretations. They rejected the interpretation delivered by the companions of the prophet saww and their students. They said: "we are men just like they are. Why should we rely on their word? We can think for ourselves, we have read Greek logic."

This is how confusion in interpreting qur'an first started.

[Abeille]

Muslims who started using Greek logic to interpret quran instead of context were the first group that created alternative interpretations. They rejected the interpretation delivered by the companions of the prophet saww and their students. They said: "we are men just like they are. Why should we rely on their word? We can think for ourselves, we have read Greek logic."

This is how confusion in interpreting qur'an first started.

I like how you are on the ball, and are on the same page as me. Thanks.

Do you think it is wrong to have a different interpretation. I mean, is there only one interpretation to the Quran?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I like how you are on the ball, and are on the same page as me. Thanks.

Do you think it is wrong to have a different interpretation. I mean, is there only one interpretation to the Quran?

It depends. There are verses that are clear rulings regarding certain matters. And the interpretation is defined by the context. For example, rulings regarding fighting the disbelievers. We can only apply those verses when we are in a similar situation. Therefore, for those verses there can only be one interpretation.

There are other verses, that are moreambigious. For example, stories of the ancient people. We do not know all the details. Sometimes we don't know anything other than the words of allah stated in that particular verse.

I think, it is safer to obey allah. Allah has said in the qur'an that some parts of qur'an are clear and some parts are less clear. And the believer will benefit from the clear parts and the person who is astray will try to exploit the ambiguities.


We shouldn't philosophize about certain parts of the qur'an for which we simply do not have any clue. For example, descrpition of a certain event or an item. Like the stick of Sulayman or the dog of the people of the cave.

What is the point in trying to figure out what these items or beings were like? The fact that these things are mentioned in the qur'an serve a purpose. It is totally pointless to go and try to figure out what the specific details are of such matters.

It is not adding knowledge and understanding to the religion. It is rather takiong the focus away from that which is beneficial to that which is a waste of time.

When Allah says, be good to your parents, we should focus on that. We should try to implement it in our lives.

But when allah describes how there were people in a pool at the end of the horizon, there is no real benefit in trying to figure out how and what exactly.

[Abeille]

I personally think that as long as there is no contradiction in an interpretation it should be accepted, even if it sounds absurd. And, it would only be absurd because it would be novel and challenge what people are comfortable with--the traditional understanding. Now, if some interpretation has no contradictions with respect the Quran then only two things can come out of it:

1-There are contradictions in the Quran, if the interpretation is rejected.
2-The interpretation must be accepted, because it does not contradict the Quran.

[Alchemist]

Would you like me to quote verses that say the Quran is clear, and sent as a mercy? That is what I was referencing.

I am not sure whether you missed Abeille's point or if you ignored it like a politician.

Let me make it simple. Given a body of knowledge A, and two states B and C which an individual can be in. Suppose the only way to go from B to C, is by considering A.

However if the assumption is that the only way to consider A is to be in state C, that means no one in state B can go to state C.

Now replace A, with the Quran, B with disbelief in Islam, and C with belief in Islam.

Or replace A, with the concept of the trinity, B with disbelief in the trinity, and C belief in the trinity.

Be sincere, that is all I ask. That and also be nice.

I don't think either you or Albellie have a point. And that is what my biggest concern with you is.

First of all, prove your axioms: that 1) states B and C are mutually exclusive. 2) that the condition for understanding A is dependent on "state" B, C or D or F. 3) Define "state"!
Is that nice or sincere enough for you pi lol?

Srsly, we've been playing this game for quite a long time my friend.

This is what I like about you, that you always give me what I expect from you. Such as your affirmation that the Qur'an is clear and sent as a Mercy. But what is it clear about? That you will be raised from the dead and your deeds will be weight, and you will either be given a place in heaven or hell according to the will of Allah. That you accept that He is your Creator, your Sustainer and devouted to His cause ALONE. That means that you stop worshiping people, and your self. You can read the words, but do you "understand" the implications of what you are reading? Does it move your "soul"? I can't imagine that it does, when you profess so often your lack of belief. Now you want to discuss your reading of the Qur'an...what's there to discuss? Its clear already!
Now the mercy part in it, is that you are still alive, be a thankful servant to Allah. Don't make your desires your gods. And how do you do that? Pray, fast, do the right thing...how do you know what the right thing is? Acknowledge your mistakes, and ask for forgiveness. You are reading the words of your Lord telling you to ask for forgiveness and remember Him often, so why don't you pi?
If I didn't care about you...I wouldn't give it to you straight. But this is how it is. "Everything happens for a reason." You are just deluding your self otherwise...I think it was AoA who said that when the time comes he'd "think up of a good excuse"... I pressed on what it would be but he didn't want to share his "secret"... Could you understand that Allah knows what is in your soul, your mind, your heart? What's your sincere reason not to, Behzad? Just tell me that.

[randolph85]

the biggest problem here is 3.14's intentions in his reading of the quran. he reads it in order to pose ridiculous questions while taking things out of context, instead of reading it as a holy book. he wants to win internet forum arguments instead of understanding the divine nature of the quran. he is an amateur pseudo intellectual.

[3.14159265...]

Radolph do you claim to know my intentions?

Alchemist, you are aware that I meditate, have been on a more or less vegetarian diet, and in general have been ridding myself of my gods? Is this then not also a desire, to want a lack of desires?

The buddhist koan regarding this is: when the ego has dissipated, who knows that it has?

I agree with most of what you have written, except that it seems any formulation of right/wrong, believers/non-believers, heaven/hell, my soul, and the rest of Abrahamic theology does not dissipate my ego but substitutes it with feelings of self-rightousness.

[Alchemist]

Radolph do you claim to know my intentions?

Alchemist, you are aware that I meditate, have been on a more or less vegetarian diet, and in general have been ridding myself of my gods? Is this then not also a desire, to want a lack of desires?

The buddhist koan regarding this is: when the ego has dissipated, who knows that it has?

I agree with most of what you have written, except that it seems any formulation of right/wrong, believers/non-believers, heaven/hell, my soul, and the rest of Abrahamic theology does not dissipate my ego but substitutes it with feelings of self-rightousness.

I asked you why you won't submit to Allah.

Instead you tell me that you are wannabe-bhuddist. So is that your religion now? How does being a vegan put you on a higher moral ground? That is your own dietary choice...and it is your particular idea of what being "healthy" is. And meditating to relieve your self of stress... to be comfortable, is this not your real desire? Don't confuse your self by thinking that it is your desire to rid your self of desire...rather I asked that you stop being whimsical and clearly assess your self, so that you'd stop deluding yourself. Are you seriously saying to me that you are a Buddhist now?
And what do you know of the ego? Or it's dissipation? Do you fancy your self a hermit of some sort? I doubt it pi...I don't see you as ascribing to asceticism... ever tried fasting in Ramadan? Tried meditating 5 times a day?
Honestly Behzad, I asked you a simple question... a very clear one. And you give me a politicians reply...

People use the word ego without knowing what it is...you know I could go on length talking about it...especially from Jungian perspective but for now, suffice it to say that the ego is your mask...and your stance here reflects on what your ego is. You ask who notices the dissipation of the ego? The ego is merely a complex of ideas stuck together.

Try thinking outside the box for a change and give me a straight answer as to why you won't submit.