Argument of Secular Pashtuns with regard to Pashtun Future

[Wrayun]

I can say the following that I am a conservative in regards to that I strictly Oppose Inter Racial marriages outside of our pashtun tribes but on the other hand people who follow Islam will object with me and say In Islam Inter Racial Marriages are encouraged and Iam a Racist.

Zma Kuzzzh Khor Do you understand my point?

Kind Regards

You do realize that in a secular country if your sister came to your parents and said she wants to marry a Punjabi, there is nothing you or your parents can do about it right? You live in a secular country I suppose, pray that it never does happen.

In an Islamic one, without the permission of the parents, it is frowned upon.

Plus, you don't know what secularism is if you are bigot. You need to educate youself on Pukhtoon nationalism, that blood this and that won't hold in a serious debate. As a neo-nationalist, try learning from some of the veterans before making your mind. You need to understand the difference between ethnicity, and race. Your blood is not that different then Punjabis and Tajiks. In fact you might be an Arab or a Turk. Try testing your DNA. You might just turn out to be a self-hating Semite like many Nazis of the past.

[Wrayun]

No takers?

[PFgulalai]

When the entire nation rose against the soviets!
When the majority of Pashtuns rose against 50+ world powers!

And those are just recent ones!

It is easy to claim that "pilankai doesn't qualify as a Pashtun" on a forum. Go anywhere in Afghanistan and tell Pashtuns that you are an atheist and see if they accept you or not!

Raising against foreign invaders to protect your land and demanding for a theocratic government are two different things.Hope you do not confuse them in future!
They have not accepted atheists.They have not accepted Talibans as rulers as well.So?

[PFgulalai]

Toramana, great topic. I will respond according.


But first, this is epic:
This right here is one of the most outrages claim you have ever made without even crosschecking any facts.

Saudi Arabai has one of the world finest educational system that oil money can afford, every year there are more women graduates in different fields than men.

quote:

The government of Saudi Arabia has urged the kingdom's private sector to play a bigger role in creating jobs for the rising number of women graduates. UNESCO and Saudi government figures show that women make up 58% of the total student population at universities. Higher Education Minister Dr Khaled Al-Anqari said this was a record for women's education in the region. But such an impressive achievement in tertiary education participation is not matched in the workplace: only 16% of Saudi women work, mostly in education, where the system of classroom segregation provides opportunities generally lacking in the private sector.

According to the World Bank report, in higher education, female students much outnumber male students in Saudi Arabia as well as Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia and West Bank and Gaza.[13]. Because government has much paid attention to girls’ education, the number of girls’ schools increased faster than boys’ schools.[4]. According to World Bank, gross enrollment rate for female is 36.1 percent, gross enrollment rate for male is 24.7 percent, and gross enrollment rate for total is 30.2 percent in 2006.[9].There are thousands of female professors throughout Saudi Arabia, which reflect the high general level of female education in the country.[14]

Iran:

quote: Women make up more than 50 percent of Iranian university students with some fields in science and engineering having more than 70 percent of their alumni comprising of women.[8] The opportunities for women education and their involvement in higher education has grown exponentially after the Iranian Revolution.[8] According to UNESCO world survey, Iran has the highest female to male ratio at primary level of enrollment in the world among sovereign nations, with a girl to boy ratio of 1.22 : 1.00.


After the very Islamic Revolution. Before that their primitive culture prevented many women from education, just like many still do in rural Iran.

Rings a bell with the Taliban? Now if you are smart enough, make the connection between cultural conservatism vs a religious one.

Lolz..Well yeah, women in Saudi Arabia make up 72% of the total enrollment but only 6% of them are employed, and that too with the condition that the work should be suited to women physique, and they cannot take higher positions such as those in judiciary.Also the literacy rate of Pashtun women in far lesser than the mammoth figure of Saudi women (Afghanistan =12% and KP=17%). However,Pashtun women got their identity cards quite earlier than the Saudi women.They also fly planes and recently one of them even became a fighter pilot.There are a number of influential Pashtun female civil judges and lawyers working in Peshawar. Women are allowed to vote and are a part of political system and running elections both at the local and provincial levels.

What is the use of degrees if Saudi women cannot vote, can't drive a car, have to be accompanied by a male, and cannot have a say in the laws that are made to protect them?

The Iranian situation of women is better than the Saudi women and infact Iranian women are one of the bravest kinds in the world for standing up against the oppression.Unfortunately, the huge pile of degrees cannot provide them a small right to choose between covering or not covering their head. Today if they have sports teams and the Saudi women do not have one, it was not because of the Islamic revolution but "soccer revolution". Iranian women volleyball team is considered one of the best ones in Asia but due to the absence of female coaches, they cannot play international games (No male coaches are allowed). All this reminds me of Shirin Ebadi, the first muslim nobel laureate, who was criticized by the Iranian government for not covering her head at the prize ceremony and her prize did not receive any official appreciation from the Iranian government.She also have a lot of degrees.

Women all over the world have undergone a lot of struggle to gain their rights. So are the pasthun and Iranian women.What I wanted to tell through my comparison of the Pashtun and Saudi/Iranian women was the cultural differences towards the concept and practice of women freedom in both cultures.The females in our village can go to any place without any male escort. Note that they are illiterate women, not the highly educated Saudi and Iranian women.Also when they work in fields, nobody give them stoning to death penalty.They dress modestly including covering their head and body and nobody beat them for not wearing Hijab. Oh well, we are also not obsessed with "sex segregation" (I am not preaching "free mixing of naked males and females here") as the MMA government wanted to do in Peshawar few years back.

Rather than "linking" cultural and religious conservatisms, I purely "segregate" them (just like the sex segregation in Saudi Arabia). Pashtunwali (the one I follow) is a good example of cultural conservatism whereas Islamism (the one you preach) is the example of religious conservatism.I never confuse them.

[Wrayun]

gulalai,

Lolz..Well yeah, women in Saudi Arabia make up 72% of the total enrollment but only 6% of them are employed, and that too with the condition that the work should be suited to women physique, and they cannot take higher positions such as those in judiciary.Also the literacy rate of Pashtun women in far lesser than the mammoth figure of Saudi women (Afghanistan =12% and KP=17%). However,Pashtun women got their identity cards quite earlier than the Saudi women.They also fly planes and recently one of them even became a fighter pilot.There are a number of influential Pashtun female civil judges and lawyers working in Peshawar. Women are allowed to vote and are a part of political system and running elections both at the local and provincial levels.

What is the use of degrees if Saudi women cannot vote, can't drive a car, have to be accompanied by a male, and cannot have a say in the laws that are made to protect them?

The Iranian situation of women is better than the Saudi women and infact Iranian women are one of the bravest kinds in the world for standing up against the oppression. Unfortunately, the huge pile of degrees cannot provide them a small right to choose between covering or not covering their head. Today if they have sports teams and the Saudi women do not have one, it was not because of the Islamic revolution but "soccer revolution". Iranian women volleyball team is considered one of the best ones in Asia but due to the absence of female coaches, they cannot play international games (No male coaches are allowed).

All this reminds me of Shirin Ebadi, the first muslim nobel laureate, who was criticized by the Iranian government for not covering her head at the prize ceremony and her prize did not receive any official appreciation from the Iranian government. She also have a lot of degrees.

Yet it is arguable whether all of that is due to religious, or cultural conservatism. I'm sure much of it is cultural where religion has been used to justify it. Still, your statement was erroneous as far as female education is concerned in Saudi Arabia, whilst on Iran, probably on both of the subjects (career and education).

Rather than "linking" cultural and religious conservatisms, I purely "segregate" them (just like the sex segregation in Saudi Arabia). Pashtunwali (the one I follow) is a good example of cultural conservatism whereas Islamism (the one you preach) is the example of religious conservatism. I never confuse them.

I don't preach Islamism, you and the rest of the atheistic secular bloc make that assumption (a silly character assassination tactic).

[akbarkhan]

Raising against foreign invaders to protect your land and demanding for a theocratic government are two different things.Hope you do not confuse them in future!
They have not accepted atheists.They have not accepted Talibans as rulers as well.So?

Little girl,

1. Afghanistan will never accept atheists.

2. Not accepting the fact that Afghanistan has accepted Taliban is delusional, of course some city dwellers don't like it but don't forget that city dwellers don't make up the bulk of the population.

A guerilla force will never be able to sustain itself and maintain a successful resistance for almost a decade without the support of the local population, don't believe me? Go read your dearest uncle Mao and find out what he deems as the most essential element of guerilla warefare, his main strategy which is being used in Afghanistan right now is the protracted people's war. Want to discuss further? Try http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...-support-5871/

Guistozzi in his book titled Koran, Kalashinkov and Laptop states that the insurgency is fiercely supported by the local population specifically in the South of Afghanistan - the south of Afghanistan as we know are the king makers.

Had the local population not supported the insurgency there would be no need for 'battle for hearts and minds'. Remember the insurgents have to blend with the local population, unlike the large cities everyone knows each other in the villages hence none can hide their activity as the Taliban.

People go to shadow governers (Taliban) to seek justice and to sort legal disputes amongst one another. You will be surprised that this happens in the Tajik north as well!

Study the realities of Afghanistan instead of fantasizing the dream of your Marxist-Leninist father.

I am not for Taliban, but I have to be realistic about them.

[Toramana]

Toramana,

Pukhto (Pukhtoonwale) & Islam

Direct influence

Namus: Namus is an Arabic word that translates to honor. Namus is determined by all of the women in a family, tribe, or a nation. All the Pukhtoon women to a Pukhtoon are his Namus. The respect and honor of all the Pukhtoon women shall be protected and safeguarded by a Pukhtoon. In Islam, all the Muslim women are the Muslim man Namus, no matter tribe, or nation. Some confuse Nang with Namus, though Nang is different. Nang means sovereignty or "Rights", not honor. You must protect your Nang (rights - sovereignty) i.e Azaadi. Nangyalay Khushal Khan (Sovereign Khushal Khan).

Ghairat: Ghairat comes from the root Arabic word Ghairah which in Islamic terminology translates to dignity and diligence. For Pukhtoons Ghairat coincides with Namus. One who lacks Ghairat can't protect his Namus. Someone that lacks Ghairat is called a Beghairatah, and to call one a Beghairatah is equivalent to having a death wish amongst the Pukhtoons. No mater rich or poor, malak or peasant, a Pukhtoon must bolster his Ghairat by never showing any sign of intimidation. A Muslim in Islam is encourage to protect and show his Ghairah. He is not allowed to show any sign of pressure or weakness.
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...
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bla bla bla bla ako bako sar sindako ghwa ma lara pa trapako

Could you please point out, which linguistic or anthropological study established the etymological connection between Pashtunwali and Islam ? And instead of answering the question that which Pashtun hero or king until this point has established a theocracy except Ghazi Mullah Umar thanks the pampering by ISI and prodding by Arabs, you are twisting facts and re-inventing history to prove your point.

There are all sort of speculations as to the origin of Pashtun customs and values and other elements of Pashtunwali, some linking them to one source (e.g., Amanullah Ghilzai, a Pashtun journalist from Afghanistan says, Pashtunwali has roots in Greek traditions) or other, but the fact is, Pashtunwali has origin in Pashtun history itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus

The above link shows to what degree of intellectual dishonesty, can Islamo-fascists go to prove their point.

[Toramana]

Little girl,

1. Afghanistan will never accept atheists.

2. Not accepting the fact that Afghanistan has accepted Taliban is delusional, of course some city dwellers don't like it but don't forget that city dwellers don't make up the bulk of the population.

A guerilla force will never be able to sustain itself and maintain a successful resistance for almost a decade without the support of the local population, don't believe me? Go read your dearest uncle Mao and find out what he deems as the most essential element of guerilla warefare, his main strategy which is being used in Afghanistan right now is the protracted people's war. Want to discuss further? Try http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...-support-5871/

Guistozzi in his book titled Koran, Kalashinkov and Laptop states that the insurgency is fiercely supported by the local population specifically in the South of Afghanistan - the south of Afghanistan as we know are the king makers.

Had the local population not supported the insurgency there would be no need for 'battle for hearts and minds'. Remember the insurgents have to blend with the local population, unlike the large cities everyone knows each other in the villages hence none can hide their activity as the Taliban.

People go to shadow governers (Taliban) to seek justice and to sort legal disputes amongst one another. You will be surprised that this happens in the Tajik north as well!

Study the realities of Afghanistan instead of fantasizing the dream of your Marxist-Leninist father.

I am not for Taliban, but I have to be realistic about them.

The longevity of a regime doesn't prove the sustenance is due to local support. Dictators, tyrants, oppressors, authoritarian rulers, etc. have always ruled through a combination of brute force as well as divine terror. The Pharoes of Egypt ruled for almost 2 milinia. The Wahabi regime of Al-Saud is another, living, example of how force/oppression is used by regimes to prolong their rule. Taliban did/are doing the same; i.e., by invoking divine terror and using brutality to eliminate any opposition to them.

[khyaal]

The mass exodus from Afghanistan during Taliban regime and later on from Swat shows the disapproval of theocratic regime by Pashtuns. Both were sponsored movements, even today's insurgency is a flagrantly sponsored one where each militant is paid far more than he could get by joining a regular army.

[ComradePashtun]

The first Pukhtoon state was established by Mirwais Hotak, his struggle to unify the Pukhtoons and the fight against invading Persian influences started with a call for jihaad against the heretics of Shiaism. This led to the first ever Pukhtoon empire to emerge victorious over its foes, far more sophisticated and advanced in terms of warfare and political establishment. Shiaism, is the result of Persian nationalism which goes as far as the first fitnah. Many Persians who became Muslims (whether genuinely or to save their necks) realized that the only way to preserve their way of life and hegemony over their own states, it was necessary to carve themselves a faith based system that will limit the influence of Arabs (Sunni Islam). Thus Shiaism was born. At the core of Shiaism is Persian culture, history, and nationalism. The influence of Shia Islam was deemed as Persian nationalism by Pukhtoon leaders like Mirwais Hotak. Under the banner of Sunni Islam, Mirwais Hotak united many Pukhtoons and his struggle ended up winning his descendants rule over Persian states. It is also noted that Mirwais went as far as Mecca to legitimize his struggle as a religious one.

Please tell me that you have made all of this up. Are you sure that as you state "Persian carved out Shiasm"? LOL You liar! This shows exactly that you are ignorant about Islamic history too. Do you freaking know that Iran adopted Shiasm in 1500 and hence became a Shia state?

Religion has always been used as a political tool, and I agree that Iran's expansionism has primarily to do with Shiasm.

[ComradePashtun]

History tell us that in peace Pashtuns would rather go for autocracy than care about theorcracy. Infact theocratic regimes have never had longivity in our history. Even after Mirwais Neekah's call for Jihad against Persians a Pashtun Kingdom and empire was established and so was when again Jihad was declared and when Amanullah Khan was deposed from his throne by Mullahs and this again led to the establishment of a Muhamadzai dynasty and instead Nadir Shah was installed as a king by the same tribes who led rebellion against the former.

Even one could argue that tribal affiliation and nationalism playes in the Taliban power structure. And many would agree that even they would've eventually changed. That is why they don't mention nothing of autocratic theocracy in the their narratives and rhetorics but their struggle against ousting the foreigners only. Taliban and their governance structure is an exceptional case, bear in mind, and has direct relation to the anarchic situation in the south and Pashtun relation with power politics in the Afghan polity in general. There is a reason for emergence of certain phenomenons in particular society which it shapes itself in accordance with that change and then eventually seeks to refine itself. Because of political and social fragmentation thus only the emergence of Taliban could restore assemlabce of peace and order and hence the support from the people. Rest assure Taliban are not the same Taliban and would've not remained as they were.

[ComradePashtun]

Having said that, as much as we would like to or not, we are far a way from becoming a secular state/people/nation.

Any one with a background in comparative politics? Come on! lol

[Wrayun]

[QUOTE=ComradePashtun;151238]Please tell me that you have made all of this up. Are you sure that as you state "Persian carved out Shiasm"? LOL You liar! This shows exactly that you are ignorant about Islamic history too. Do you freaking know that Iran adopted Shiasm in 1500 and hence became a Shia state?

Yes, Iran existed 1500 years ago and before that there were no Persians. Even the Magis who were responsible for the Fatimid Caliphs had no religious, cultural, philosophical ties to Persia. You are so very right. Abu Lu'lu'ah was a Kashmiri.

Thank you for correcting me.

[Wrayun]

bla bla bla bla ako bako sar sindako ghwa ma lara pa trapako

Great rebuttal.

Could you please point out, which linguistic or anthropological study established the etymological connection between Pashtunwali and Islam?

I think I have given enough evidence that you don't need to waste your time on a study. The facts are clear for themselves. You need to prove to the contrary, if you have anything to add that is. I am stressing my point of view, you can prove me wrong, and I'll gladly admit it. There is no shame in it.

And instead of answering the question that which Pashtun hero or king until had established a theocracy except Ghazi Mullah Umar thanks the pampering by ISI and prodding by Arabs, you are twisting facts and re-inventing history to prove your point.

What is the difference between Mirwais Hotak, Ahmed Shah, and Mullah Umar? If you were to travel back in time when Mirwais or Ahmed Shah were alive, I can bet that according to you they too would be "Islamo facists". Honestly, if you and Mullah Umar had a meeting with Mirwais and Ahmed Shah, who do you think would walk out of that meeting in one piece...Umar or you?

Umar is a victim of his circumstance. He is being used, he might not even exist, who knows. The situation in Afghanistan is not about Umar. It is about some people who can take advantage of Pukhtoon/Afghan historical sentiments while our very own leaders lack intelligent foresight to harness them. Our nationalist leaders again and again have given the enemy ammunition to work against us. Who needs enemies when we have secular atheists Pukhtoon nationalists who again and again and again and AGAIN equate Pukhtoon nationalism to KAFIR and INFIDEL ideals? This make Paki's and ISI job easy.

There are all sort of speculations as to the origin of Pashtun customs and values and other elements of Pashtunwali, some linking them to one source (e.g., Amanullah Ghilzai, a Pashtun journalist from Afghanistan says, Pashtunwali has roots in Greek traditions) or other, but the fact is, Pashtunwali has origin in Pashtun history itself.

I'd like to see some arguments, like the concepts of Pukhtoonwale in light of Greek heritage. I haven't read Amanullah Ghilzai work, but if you have a link or source, would be nice if you could share it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus

The above link shows to what degree of intellectual dishonesty, can Islamo-fascists go to prove their point.

Yes, the very first paragraph on that link shows how intellectually dishonest I am.

[Wrayun]

Here is the original Wiki article that's been edited out:

Namus

Here, read the Namus part on this article:

Burqa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia