Argument of Secular Pashtuns with regard to Pashtun Future

[Toramana]

Frinds here will correct me if I am wrong but the argument of secular Pashtuns concerning the future of Pashtuns as a nation-especially the political system they should live under in order to prosper and to be in peace-runs like this.

"As the Pashtun history, value system, and social set-up indicate, Pashtuns can better live in a system (political or social) where religion is separate from the system of governance. Moreover, a secular system, by virtue of its pluralistic/tolerant nature in matters related to ideological, religious, or ethno-cultural affiliation/inclination and its successful transformation of many nations around the world into stable societies is best suited to modernise Pashtuns and pull them out of the present guagmire."

It should be noted no where in the above argument do seculaits imply that religioun would be out of Pashtun lives. Religion is an integral part of Pashtuns society and it is going to stay like that, there isn't a second opinion about that. Rather, the underlying assumption of secularism is, one can be a devout Muslim or follower of any other religion yet can participate in a state where the system of governance is based on worldly laws (as well as processes/procedures).

Now Wrayun refutes the above argument and claims that Pashtuns are 99% conservative Muslims and don't like to live in a state where laws are secular. As there is no empirical proof (authentic census or other data) to support his claim, the only option left to him to corroborate his claim is to look at other indicators e.g., Pashtun society and history to judge whether Pashtuns are really 99% religious conservatives. Wrayun should prove this from Pashtun customs, values, social institutions, code of ethics (Pashtunwali), history, and deads, accomplishments, and political struggle of Pashtun heroes.

For example, Wrayun should tell us, whom of the Pashtun heroes that Pashtuns revere and value most had theocratic/religious objectives/goals when they struggled for Pashtun interests or which elements of Pashtunwali have basis in Islamic theocracy, theology, or jurisprudence. He could tell us when did Pashtuns like to be ruled by Mullahs or prefer to live in a theocratic state. He should bring me few examples from Pashtun history or social set-up.

[BehavedMaseed]

If Pashtuns are so conservative then why did they vote ANP secular Party into Power and protested and removed the JUI Islami Parties out.

Why have Pashtun members of JUI Islami Parties joined hands with Secular Punjabi Parties to remove Pashtun Secularists out of power in Pakhtunkhwa.

Not all Pashtuns are conservative.

Kind Regards

[Michin Khel]

Pashtuns are conservative people, this fact cant be denied...those who deny it, are ignorant and are not aware of pashtuns. I request such ignorant members to move their butts from PC desks and visit pakhtunkhwa and afghanistan.

[Michin Khel]

Toramana, you are suffering from identity crisis. You know very well about yourself that you can be loosely identified as pashtun so You are trying to justify your own athiestic views and wish it for all of us. Pashtuns may become broad-minded but they will never become non-believers like you.

[ijaz yousafzai]

The secular instinct of the Pakhtuns can be judged from the fact that their representatative organization got merged with the secular Indian National Congress in 1930 instead of tha religious oufit of Jamiat-e-Ulma-e- Hind, but no Pakhtun frowned. The Pakhtun Cogressites practiced their religious rituals as usual and no body refrained them to adhere to their riligious beliefs and practices. I have performed prayers, so many times under the Imamat of Bacha Khan.

[Toramana]

Toramana, you are suffering from identity crisis. You know very well about yourself that you can be loosely identified as pashtun so You are trying to justify your own athiestic views and wish it for all of us. Pashtuns may become broad-minded but they will never become non-believers like you.

You should focus on the argument. No one said or insisted here, Pashtuns should become non-believers. The issue is practicability and smooth transformation into a stable, non-tribalistic society with secure, predictable future.

As for Pashtun conservatism, you should prove (that), that is tantamount to be liking to live in a theorcartic state (from Pashtun traditions and values). As for my identity crisis, I have reached a level of rationality (far above tribalism) where I don't mind who am I or what do you call me with as long as I am satisfied with my satus, actions, thoughts, and achievements.

I really petty on a person who doesn't have any other thing to take pride in except vain claim of tribal supremacy devoid of ideas or intellect...a person who doesn't have any idea or good thought for the preservation of the very values (and future of the people upholding those values) in which he is taking pride and rather is doing the contrary i.e., working against those values/people in collaboration with their foes.

[Toramana]

The secular instinct of the Pakhtuns can be judged from the fact that their representatative organization got merged with the secular Indian National Congress in 1930 instead of tha religious oufit of Jamiat-e-Ulma-e- Hind, but no Pakhtun frowned. The Pakhtun Cogressites practiced their religious rituals as usual and no body refrained them to adhere to their riligious beliefs and practices. I have performed prayers, so many times under the Imamat of Bacha Khan.

Ejaz Saib, that was exactly the example I was going to quote in support of the traditional secular Pashtun attitude but you took the lead. Thanks for that.

[Michin Khel]

I agree that pashtuns should not be religous bigots but denying the fact that they are non-religous people, is decieving yourself.

[PFgulalai]

Pashtuns are conservative people, this fact cant be denied...those who deny it, are ignorant and are not aware of pashtuns. I request such ignorant members to move their butts from PC desks and visit pakhtunkhwa and afghanistan.

I have lived 92.2% of my life in Khyber-Pakhthunkhwa. In a strict sense,Pashtuns are culturally conservative (including myself) but not religiously (there is huge difference between cultural conservatism and religious conservatism).Had it been the case, Pashtuns wouldn't have given the freedom to their women for earning education and pursuing careers (compare and contrast with the Islamic states of Saudi Arabia and Iran).This is just one of the many examples how the conservative Pashtuns have not followed the religion blindly.An average old Pashtun man in my village who offers 5 times prayers is more progressive when he denounces the attack on christian communities .There are more attacks on minorities in Sind and Punjab than in Pashtunkhwa. I am not counting the incidents of attack by the Talibans on the minorities since Talibans do no qualify as Pashtuns.And yes, one more thing that you should not forget is that Pashtuns are politically aware and progressive people.When was the last time we demanded a theocratic state?

[BehavedMaseed]

I have lived 92.2% of my life in Khyber-Pakhthunkhwa. In a strict sense,Pashtuns are culturally conservative (including myself) but not religiously (there is huge difference between cultural conservatism and religious conservatism).Had it been the case, Pashtuns wouldn't have given the freedom to their women for earning education and pursuing careers (compare and contrast with the Islamic states of Saudi Arabia and Iran).This is just one of the many examples how the conservative Pashtuns have not followed the religion blindly.An average old Pashtun man in my village who offers 5 times prayers is more progressive when he denounces the attack on christian communities .There are more attacks on minorities in Sind and Punjab than in Pashtunkhwa. I am not counting the incidents of attack by the Talibans on the minorities since Talibans do no qualify as Pashtuns.And yes, one more thing that you should not forget is that Pashtuns are politically aware and progressive people.When was the last time we demanded a theocratic state?

I can say the following that I am a conservative in regards to that I strictly Oppose Inter Racial marriages outside of our pashtun tribes but on the other hand people who follow Islam will object with me and say In Islam Inter Racial Marriages are encouraged and Iam a Racist.

Zma Kuzzzh Khor Do you understand my point?

Kind Regards

[Toramana]

I can say the following that I am a conservative in regards to that I strictly Oppose Inter Racial marriages outside of our pashtun tribes but on the other hand people who follow Islam will object with me and say In Islam Inter Racial Marriages are encouraged and Iam a Racist.

Zma Kuzzzh Khor Do you understand my point?

Kind Regards

Very relevant example, BehaveMaseed. No doubt Pashtuns are conservative in cultural sense as gulalai said but that doesn't mean they are religious zealots wanting to be ruled by Mullahs. Their Islam is Islam of convenience at best.

By the way, most of the rural people tend to be conservative....that isn't something special about Pashtuns.

[PFgulalai]

I can say the following that I am a conservative in regards to that I strictly Oppose Inter Racial marriages outside of our pashtun tribes but on the other hand people who follow Islam will object with me and say In Islam Inter Racial Marriages are encouraged and Iam a Racist.

Zma Kuzzzh Khor Do you understand my point?

Kind Regards

Yes Maseed, you forgot that in the great interest of holy muslim brotherhood, it is fine...infact greatly encouraged to dilute your culture by marrying Muslim Arabs and Punjabis.But when it comes to accepting the secular and progressive political thoughts to benefit your people,you are being declared a kafir Pashtun who is trying to westeranize Pashtunwali with a hidden Zionist agenda,lol...

[BehavedMaseed]

Yes Maseed, you forgot that in the great interest of holy muslim brotherhood, it is fine...infact greatly encouraged to dilute your culture by marrying Muslim Arabs and Punjabis.But when it comes to accepting the secular and progressive political thoughts to benefit your people,you are being declared a kafir Pashtun who is trying to westeranize Pashtunwali with a hidden Zionist agenda,lol...

You know they always associate our political thinking with Westernisation when infact their Islamic Political thinking is not even regional. Pashtun Regions are not even in the Middle east. We are central Asians by location but Pashtun by blood. Our Culture is tolarant towards many faiths but due to the soviet war, Wahabis,Arabs, Punjabis and Outsiders have Arabised it and made us kill our own people over it.

Take the example of Palestinian Militant by the name of Abdullah Azam. He was the guy who invented the offensive Jihad theory. He stated that each year the Muslim Army has to terrorise and attack Non Muslim Lands to make Islam strong, He also said Muslims should wake up and fight the Zionists, guess what, he spent most of his time being supplied by Israel Zionists,American Christians and Pakistani Punjabis to fight the Soviets, he also died in Peshawer and he didnt even fight a single day in his native Palestine.

You see these people have targetted our people for a purpose. Take Arab Militant by the name of Khattab from Chechnya, He was booted out by Tajiks from Tajikistan for his views even though they were themselves Islamists. He went to Chechnya to Arabise their culture by telling them their customs are wrong and they should Arabise them meaning daily beheadings, beating of their women and slaughtering opposition then hanging their bodies. Chechens with help of russia soon killed him at the end.

Our People need to be aware of the threat of Islamisation. Its very easy for those sat in the west speaking of how peaceful and sincere Mullahs and those supporters of Shariat are when infact they enjoy the peaceful and tolarant societies of the west and enjoy their relgionous freedoms under secular laws without even being questioned about their faith on the streets as how most are terrorised and brutalised in muslim countries if they are a relgionous minority.

Kind Regards

[akbarkhan]

When was the last time we demanded a theocratic state?

When the entire nation rose against the soviets!
When the majority of Pashtuns rose against 50+ world powers!

And those are just recent ones!

It is easy to claim that "pilankai doesn't qualify as a Pashtun" on a forum. Go anywhere in Afghanistan and tell Pashtuns that you are an atheist and see if they accept you or not!

[Wrayun]

Toramana, great topic. I will respond according.


But first, this is epic:

Had it been the case, Pashtuns wouldn't have given the freedom to their women for earning education and pursuing careers (compare and contrast with the Islamic states of Saudi Arabia and Iran).

This right here is one of the most outrages claim you have ever made without even crosschecking any facts.

Saudi Arabai has one of the world finest educational system that oil money can afford, every year there are more women graduates in different fields than men.

quote:

The government of Saudi Arabia has urged the kingdom's private sector to play a bigger role in creating jobs for the rising number of women graduates. UNESCO and Saudi government figures show that women make up 58% of the total student population at universities. Higher Education Minister Dr Khaled Al-Anqari said this was a record for women's education in the region. But such an impressive achievement in tertiary education participation is not matched in the workplace: only 16% of Saudi women work, mostly in education, where the system of classroom segregation provides opportunities generally lacking in the private sector.

According to the World Bank report, in higher education, female students much outnumber male students in Saudi Arabia as well as Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia and West Bank and Gaza.[13]. Because government has much paid attention to girls’ education, the number of girls’ schools increased faster than boys’ schools.[4]. According to World Bank, gross enrollment rate for female is 36.1 percent, gross enrollment rate for male is 24.7 percent, and gross enrollment rate for total is 30.2 percent in 2006.[9].There are thousands of female professors throughout Saudi Arabia, which reflect the high general level of female education in the country.[14]

Iran:

quote: Women make up more than 50 percent of Iranian university students with some fields in science and engineering having more than 70 percent of their alumni comprising of women.[8] The opportunities for women education and their involvement in higher education has grown exponentially after the Iranian Revolution.[8] According to UNESCO world survey, Iran has the highest female to male ratio at primary level of enrollment in the world among sovereign nations, with a girl to boy ratio of 1.22 : 1.00.


After the very Islamic Revolution. Before that their primitive culture prevented many women from education, just like many still do in rural Iran.

Rings a bell with the Taliban? Now if you are smart enough, make the connection between cultural conservatism vs a religious one.