Obituary for Abdul Raziq

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Brother, you are making a mistake now. You are trying to hold a reasonable debate with a brainwashed Paki. He does not care about facts. He is not willing to debate in a civil way. He just wants the Taliban win because he believes that will destroy Afghanistan and benefit its own s*itty genocidal failed state.

I don't think he's nefarious ...he like many other Muslims have the wool over their eyes

B.S. stories about Mullah Umar refusing freshbread and cream ... hoaky religious scholars giving endorsements

There's an entire culture orchestrated to stimulate this psyche and frame their view of the world. He's only relaying that and defending that because he really believes the Taliban are heroes and authentic.

He envisions a world which would never happen because the people he feels would help usher that in ...have no interest in establishing it. This is the ruse these groups work under. In reality they are the individuals taken advantage of by provocateurs not the provocateurs themselves.

[maneatinglizard]

What about Porkistan? You allowed the USA to bomb the hell out your own country and provided safe passage to NATO to support the Afghan puppet government. In exchange USA gave you money. Paki blood for American money. The Afg government might be a puppet but you Pakis are honorless prostitutes.

All Afghans can agree on the fact that Pakistan is an evil prostitute state.

I don't have a problem with regular Pakis except for the dumb nationalists, but the state deserves no trust or kindness.

[randolph85]

What is Karzai to you? An independent individual who managed to "frustrate" the US? Be clear

Karzai was a naive clown who eventually came to realize that Pakistan was a far more important ally to the US than his country. He was the darling of America and went from addressing the US congress and getting a standing ovation to wondering why after a decade the US was committing collateral damage in Afghanistan while it was clear Pakistan harbored and supported Taliban leadership. When he started acting less like a puppet, the western media started reporting that he was mentally unstable and etc.

His objection to the Taliban acting like a government in exile with their Qatar office was basically the end of the peace process, and especially his NDS that reported that Mullah Omar was actually dead which turned the Taliban into disarray, that is the bigger factor.

He wasn’t evil like Najib, he was as naive as Amin and Taraki except Americans didn’t murder him, he has enough roots and connections to people that he can’t be exiled like Karmal.

[Azmal]

US as in everyone that's argued against the Taliban fan-boys on this page.

This includes, Firdousi, Randolph, myself and numerous others. You're not new here, most of us remember your arguments for the Taliban from your previous incarnations.. You aren't putting forth a new debate. This is the same debate strategy Taliban apologists have used since the 2000's. Trying to create this FALSE dichotomy that Taliban criticism means Pro-Government is horse crap. Yeah maybe Azmal bootlicks the government but Randolph, myself and Firdousi SURE Don't.

Otherwise why would I say "there are no good guys here". That's not "Pro-Government".

But the fact remains YOU asked me to "demonstrate" something that is PLAINLY obvious for ANYONE that's been to Afghanistan, Construction projects happening, dams being rebuilt, POwer Stations becoming operational ...that is UNTIL THE TALIBAN try sabotaging them, but that only makes the Taliban look worse. That doesn't mean it's all good, in fact some of it is bad and yes, there is cleptocracy going on and corruption. But even despite that there's stuff some stuff actually getting done ...and that's merit.

The Taliban aren't even capable of doing ANY of that. It's not simply an issue of "brain drain" or lack of resources. Look at where the Taliban's efforts concentrate on....they're more about military activities, Practically NONE of the money they manage to acquire has been used to have similar or parallel projects or trying to change the face of the Taliban into a social activist group like HAMAS have. And the Taliban and HAMAS both get external funding, yet Taliban still act like thugs and think threatening people means they have "support". Yep, the Govt does that stuff too. So yeah As Randolph said, corruption is more a description of Afghan society than something uniquely wrong with the Government.

Taliban could have easily reclaimed Afghanistan if they went that route; but because Taliban themselves are stooges whose sole function is to be manipulated for Pakistani Geopolitical strategy; they won't because their main goal is ensuring territory not liberation. Hence, you CHANGED Goal Posts when Azmal, correctly pointed out the things that were being built in Afghanistan. Which is what my "pot calls kettle back" comment was about. You're calling out Azmal out on something YOU'RE also doing in the very same process of back peddling and goal post changing.

However, let;'s agree that much of those construction projects are built to exploit Afghanistan, especially the excavation of Lapis Lazuli and Mineral Ores. BUT THE QUESTION YOU ASKED was ...WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT THEY"RE CAPABLE? ...Well there, that's what CAPABILITY means, having the ABILITY to do things. Ability shows competence. Ability and motivations are distinct variables.

I agree with Azmal about the currently existing Government facilitated construction projects, And I agree with you that the Government doesn't necessarily have Afghanistan's interests at heart with some of these projects. My reason for agreeing is totally different than being "pro Government" like Azmal is or Pro-Taliban like you are.

It has to do with thinking semi-rationally and acknowledging what is evidently true rather than being a Brainwashed drone pandering to whatever agenda or ideology. Like Apologists tend to do.

You don’t get it, it is not that gov that these pakis after; they are against Afghan state. Kabul must be burn policy of Zaiulhaq. They want to destroy Afghan infrastructure and institutions just like 90s.

Speaking of puppets below is list history of Pakistan ’s security institutions.

ISI:
ISI was the brainchild of Australian-born British Army officer, Major General R. Cawthome, then Deputy Chief of Staff in the Pakistan Army.

Pakistan Militray:
Remnant of British India army, made up of Indian-Muslims whom have faithfully served British for 200 years... Including but not limited against Iraq , Afghanistan , World War 1 and 2.

Army:
First two Chief of Army Staff of the Pakistan Army where General Sir Frank Messervy (August 15, 1947 - February 10, 1948) General Sir Douglas David Gracey ( February 11, 1948 - January 16, 1951 .


Pakistan air force.
Air force Chiefs
Air Vice Marshal Allan Perry-Keane (August 15, 1947 - February 17, 1949)
Air Vice Marshal R.L.R. Atcherley (February 18, 1949 - May 6, 1951)
Air Vice Marshal L.W. Cannon (May 7, 1951 - June 19, 1955)
Air Vice Marshal A.W.B. McDonald (June 20, 1955 - July 22, 1957)

Naval Chiefs
Vice Admiral J.W. Jefford CB CBE (August 14, 1947 - January 31, 1953)

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

You don’t get it, it is not that gov that these pakis after; they are against Afghan state. Kabul must be burn policy of Zaiulhaq. They want to destroy Afghan infrastructure and institutions just like 90s.

Speaking of puppets below is list history of Pakistan ’s security institutions.

ISI:
ISI was the brainchild of Australian-born British Army officer, Major General R. Cawthome, then Deputy Chief of Staff in the Pakistan Army.

Pakistan Militray:
Remnant of British India army, made up of Indian-Muslims whom have faithfully served British for 200 years... Including but not limited against Iraq , Afghanistan , World War 1 and 2.

Army:
First two Chief of Army Staff of the Pakistan Army where General Sir Frank Messervy (August 15, 1947 - February 10, 1948) General Sir Douglas David Gracey ( February 11, 1948 - January 16, 1951 .


Pakistan air force.
Air force Chiefs
Air Vice Marshal Allan Perry-Keane (August 15, 1947 - February 17, 1949)
Air Vice Marshal R.L.R. Atcherley (February 18, 1949 - May 6, 1951)
Air Vice Marshal L.W. Cannon (May 7, 1951 - June 19, 1955)
Air Vice Marshal A.W.B. McDonald (June 20, 1955 - July 22, 1957)

Naval Chiefs
Vice Admiral J.W. Jefford CB CBE (August 14, 1947 - January 31, 1953)

All you do is recycle the same ideas you've been recycling since 2006. You have not developed a more sophisticated understanding of things that others have. Anyone with access to Wikipedia or online resources knows the Pakistani ISI relationship to British military establishment. You aren't teaching us anything.


Nationalist Bootlickers and Taliban fanboys are basically two sides of the same coin.

[Azmal]

Makhmood,
There is two choice here, either we will go back to ****hole of Taliban rule where under religions name country will go back to Stone Age and eventually our resource will be stolen by Punjo military just like what is happening in Wazeristan. Or we will have a gov that will eventually improve. You can bull**** about nationalism but I’m far from nationalist. I’m pan-AFghanistan!

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Azz-Mole



So according to you, Those are only two choices ...either be a cuck like Amandeep Singh was for the Kaiser of Germany, but this time for Miitary-Industrial complex of G7 countries to destroy the Natural Environment of Afghanistan to exploit Lapis and other minerals

Or we become cucks to Punjabis who are cucks of the same G7 member Oligarchy?

If that's true, then what's the point of Afghanistan than some bootlickers' storybook made by Afsharid servant boy Abdali?

[Firdousi]

There are old reports that he was aligned with the socialist movement initially in the Kabul university days but I take a lot of these stories with a grain of salt. Hekmatyar was a communist, Massoud collaborated with Soviets, etc..

It seems like a lot of history from those days was written with political motives.

I heard that story about Massoud being a Shola-e long time ago? I dont trust Afghans at all since we are too prone to exaggeration but I heard this history from at least two guys who we were studying engineering in Kabul in those times. Since I have no evidence of it, I reject it. But there must be something true about all these claims.

[Azmal]

Azz-Mole



So according to you, Those are only two choices ...either be a cuck like Amandeep Singh was for the Kaiser of Germany, but this time for Miitary-Industrial complex of G7 countries to destroy the Natural Environment of Afghanistan to exploit Lapis and other minerals

Or we become cucks to Punjabis who are cucks of the same G7 member Oligarchy?

If that's true, then what's the point of Afghanistan than some bootlickers' storybook made by Afsharid servant boy Abdali?

zoboomafoo,
By insulting our founding father, you proved to be a foreigner to us. Indeed if you venture to AFG god will know what will happen to you.
Afg lapis is already been exploited, only way to survive is to protect and empower Afghan state.

[khushal]

zoboomafoo,
By insulting our founding father, you proved to be a foreigner to us. Indeed if you venture to AFG god will know what will happen to you.
Afg lapis is already been exploited, only way to survive is to protect and empower Afghan state.

You just want to continue Amandeep policy of cucking the Afghan mind. Stalin took religion out of Eastern Europe and former Soviet states and look what the consequences are. Their Women buy visas for work as prostitutes in all Worlds capital. According to UN, Afghan booming population would be equal to Russia's declining population in about 40 years even though Russia has vast resources.

Abdali would have spit on Amandeep if they ever met.
Also empowering the current Afghan state is just empowering a bunch of thieves.

[khushal]

even if we assume that is true, they're still capable of doing things the Taliban can't.

Its not they, its the foreign aid agencies and foreign aid. We already went through this. You are repeating like Azmule.

[khushal]

You mean Massoud? I know Massoud was a commie before joining Jamiat, but I haven't heard of Gulbadin ever being one.

According to certain sources, Hekmatyar was a member of the PDPA when he was very young and so was Mosoud. It says that he killed another PDPA member in a fight and went to jail for it. He changed his stance after meeting Rabani who went to Al Azhar University in Cairo. Rabani/Masoud and Hekmatyar split after the Pakistani Jamiet put their support behind Hekmatyar who(pakistani Jamiet) initially were supporting Rabani's Jamiet.

But Randolph maybe right, they might be just rumors.

[khushal]

So which is the problem to you because I still don’t understand, the system of governance or how people in power abuse it? On paper the modern government system is a decent one if you ignore the corrupt nature of the Afghan elite and the fact it was created by foreigners. If we were not as corrupt and Afghans had created this system independently, there would be no complaints.

People will always a try to use their influence for their OWN benefit. This is human nature. On paper, the Afghan gov system is shyt, the evidence speaks for itself since it is the most corrupt gov int he world according to all reports. Dont blame the Afghan elite since they are doing what they should be doing according to human nature and that is to steal as much as possible because the system allows it and encourages it just like dont blame black people or refugees in the US who use the welfare system to live of off for the rest of their lives and their kids expecting the same thing. Blame the system that allows this to happen.

Iran is corrupt as hell. The Revolutionary Guard is a better business than a military force. This is not Egypt where the Ikhwan were sabatoged by the deep Mubarak state who ruled the country for decades and still controlled state institutions after his fall and didn’t let the Morsi government get anything done. The Shah era has been dead for 40 years.

You cant really change the system with a wave of the magic wand unless you burn the system to the ground and build a new one. But you answered your own question. The reason that Morsi couldnt get anything done was because the people that control the system will do everything possible to prevent their power or source of income from diminishing. I recently worked with a quality control consultant who basically goes to a corporation or public agency and advises them on what to do to be more efficient. He told me that when he works for private companies, they do exactly what he says since their main goal is profits but in the public/gov sphere, they will not. The reason for this is that the people want to keep their jobs so when a budget cut comes, instead of laying off the people that do nothing or the least important ones, they lay off the people that actually work or most important ones to keep the agencys purpose. They do this so the budget cuts don't become permanent. They want to show the legislatures who control their purse that the budget cuts effect the agencies importance. This tells us that when gov becomes bigger and bigger, it is almost impossible to shrink it or reduce its size. So when corruption is widespread and rampant, it is extremely hard to curtail it and if you do succeed to curtail it, it would be limited and most likely return. This is why the Pakistanis have a hard time tackling their corruption problem. This is why Trump is attacked in the media from all fronts, he wants to limit spending to most gov institutions but the people that depend on those salaries who are in the millions will do everything possible to prevent their salaries from being taken away.

The US disposing of bin ladens body so it won’t be a monument to his supporters was a generic response as to why they did it, nevermind that his supporters aren’t exactly grave worshippers.

True. It is doubtful they dumped the body. They prob have it stored somewhere, they just didn't want to give the body away but that is the narrative of preventing some kind of monument or prevent some kind of an inspiration.

So would you be okay with the Taliban continuing the farce of Mullah Omar being alive to this day had it not been exposed? We are not only talking about some
figurehead or symbolic figure of a resistance but according to the Taliban, him, Mansour, and Hibatullah are/were the heads of state of Afghanistan.

It is not about what I am Okay with. Its an explanation of their behavior and actions.

[khushal]

Reward for building infrastructure? You are not such a retard as you trying to sound. Business in Afg is amazingly flourishing even without security and attacks. Shatooot dume in kabul will provide drinking water for 2 million kabulis, the city as 5 million population yet during Taliban it was empty. Every day new project is being completed and soon with chakhabur opening there will be no need for Pakistan.

Afghan Exports Through Air Corridors To Total $1M | TOLOnews

Yes there will be no need for Pakistan but a need for Iran and transporting products through the air is not economically feasible. This is all mumbo jumbo to convince morons like yourself of the fake progress.

Also, Almost all economists agree that China building all these land routes are a waste of their money, it will never economically beat shipping routes through the sea which is why the US is hell bent on controlling the seas. This realization was the failure of the Muslims and the rise of Western Europe centuries ago. Western Europe spent their resources of controlling the seas while the Ottomans were busy securing land routes.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

zoboomafoo,
By insulting our founding father, you proved to be a foreigner to us. Indeed if you venture to AFG god will know what will happen to you.
Afg lapis is already been exploited, only way to survive is to protect and empower Afghan state.

Azz-Mole

This is just weak bootlicker propaganda created to protect the establishment. Bootlickers are easily threatened so they use emotional blackmail tactics to prevent free thinking and critical analysis of Afghan history. They hope to brainwash society to conform with the establishment's narrative, but it"s easy to see the shallowness and inconsistency when you open a history book and point it out. I

So basically your logic is because it's already being exploited ....is to have it even MORE exploited to such a large degree that Multinational corporations have ownership in Afghan territories? ...Yep, you're a cuck, ...Notice your priorities; Afghan State, not Afghan society, natural resources, habitat or people! ...That;s very telling ...the real nature of the establishment and state apparatus; it's a scam.