Is Pashtunwali Pagan?

[Friends of Baloch]

How is it a problem?
What culture and heritage?
And who are "they'?
Culture to Muslims is derived from Islam ,Qur'an and Sunnah.
Anything going against it is not worthy calling culture.
Off course Islam is also against cultural practices of Arabs which are un Islamic. Thanks to Islam culture of having slaves and burrying daughters was banned. Islam is forward and progressive so why should anyone cling to those practices which are deemed against it.

Have you ever been to the Middle East before? Slavery was widespread across North Africa and the Middle East until the fall of the Ottomans right up until the 20th century. Today slavery still exists, only now it is unsanctioned as slavery but sanctioned as indentured labor called kafala in Gulf Arab countries. Slavery in Islam has been permitted for most it's history.

You appear not to know what progressive means either. Progression means change, which is the opposite of what you seem to be arguing about Islam which is that it is static and unchanging. Based on what you've been trying to argue, Islam is not progressive at all. You need to be clear in your mind what you actually believe in and what you think you know about things.

[UnknownUser]

Have you ever been to the Middle East before? Slavery was widespread across North Africa and the Middle East until the fall of the Ottomans right up until the 20th century. Today slavery still exists, only now it is unsanctioned as slavery but sanctioned as indentured labor called kafala in Gulf Arab countries. Slavery in Islam has been permitted for most it's history.

You appear not to know what progressive means either. Progression means change, which is the opposite of what you seem to be arguing about Islam which is that it is static and unchanging. Based on what you've been trying to argue, Islam is not progressive at all. You need to be clear in your mind what you actually believe in and what you think you know about things.

Very right. If Islam was progressive, it would no longer remain Islam. Even by its own definition, word of God is eternal.

but within Islam's static-ness, it can of course adapt to fit the time and place if/when needed, while still remaining ever constant.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

That is a very liberal view as anything that isn't hurting someone else is OK.
From Islamic point of view anything that has religious connotations and is dedicated to other than Allah swt is harmful.

Yes that's right, anything that doesn't cause others harm is perfectly okay. This is Islam's view too, the difference is Islam judges harm by human fitrah , which is fundamental and objective , while on the other liberals judge harm by their rationalization which is artificial and arbitrary.

I responded to your question as to why we admonish against the things you cited. Because they are manifestly harming and causing suffering. That makes those things incomparable with Nawruz.

Islam emphasizes wholesomeness, good character, fairness , balance, honor and justice. Precisely because those things that run contrary to that cause harm and suffering for society. So causing harm to others needlessly is an injustice. The things you consider Islam aren't actually from Islam, they're from bigoted individuals who twist things out of context to maintain power for their particular group or individual interests. Usually for political motivations

If you think that's liberal,, I highly recommend you study the Qur'an and Sunnah more.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Slavery is definitely something we should suppress and has become obsolescent but we should bear in mind slavery in Islam did not have the same character or pathology as slavery of Europeans.

This does not make it OKay, because it;'s still based on the idea that someone is "owner" or another human being. But in Islam owners of slaves were required to treat slaves as if they were their own children. So when we talk about slavery in Islam we should be wary to color it with the same attitude as European slavery.

that said we should definitely take that slavery of any form, whether through labor exploitation as currently common in the Arab Gulf (which actually resembles European Slavery) should be abolished completely and this coincides with the spirit of Islam, as the goal of Islam is to minimalize harm.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Very right. If Islam was progressive, it would no longer remain Islam. Even by its own definition, word of God is eternal.

but within Islam's static-ness, it can of course adapt to fit the time and place if/when needed, while still remaining ever constant.

Islam is and always has been very dynamic this is why we have an entire intellectual enterprise to implementing Islamic principles in addressing human problems.

The "static" attitude you speak of actually isn't consistent with historical Islam.

[Akbar]

Have you ever been to the Middle East before? Slavery was widespread across North Africa and the Middle East until the fall of the Ottomans right up until the 20th century. Today slavery still exists, only now it is unsanctioned as slavery but sanctioned as indentured labor called kafala in Gulf Arab countries. Slavery in Islam has been permitted for most it's history.

You appear not to know what progressive means either. Progression means change, which is the opposite of what you seem to be arguing about Islam which is that it is static and unchanging. Based on what you've been trying to argue, Islam is not progressive at all. You need to be clear in your mind what you actually believe in and what you think you know about things.

I said Islam not middle East or north Africa or ottomans.
Islam doesn't condone slavery and I dont know if slavery was widespread or not. For that you need to give me some evidence. Non the less it has nothing to do with Islam.
I agree with you about the behaviour of Arab states.
Their unfair treatment of cheap labourers and maids.
They are just following their pre Islamic culture and not Islam.
Do you want to say that Islam needs to change?

Look up the meaning of progressive. Islam is progressive from the get go and it still is ahead of its time.
Islam abolished slavery and gave rights to wome 1400 years ago. It is not Arab culture. Any people can adapt to it.

[Akbar]

Ok guys
Nowroz has gone I guess the discussion will continue.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Ok guys
Nowroz has gone I guess the discussion will continue.

But the idea that somehow we're falling away from Islam due to embracing Nowruz still persists and it's important to challenge these notions because they are aimed at trying to push narrow attitudes which has impact in many adverse ways across the board.

[کیش]

If you people care about holidays, you would treat every Friday like one. It is mentioned by All Mighty Allah and his Messenger (peace and blessings to him) as a holy day.

[UnknownUser]

If people must abolish culture, then what else is there to keep?

You can argue that your Pashtun identity is a threat to your Muslim identity. If you want to be 100% Arabized Muslim, your Pashtun identity, language and culture is useless when you can adopt the Arab one. Adopt Arabic language, and start ideintifying yourself Arab or only Muslim. let's all Muslim races from Sudan to Bangladesh mix into one muslim hybrid race, and erase that we have history longer than 1400 years. lol

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

If people must abolish culture and heritage, then what else is there to keep?

I think Pashtuns are pretty proud of being PAshtun, but You can ask isn't Pashtun identity a threat to Muslim identity? What's the use of your Pashtun identity, language and culture if you can adopt the Arab one?

Adopt Arabic language, and start ideintifying yourself Arab or only Muslim. let's all Muslim races from Sudan to Bangladesh mix into one muslim race like jews, and erase that we have a history longer than 1400 years. lol

I guess you started ignoring all of my responses

[UnknownUser]

I guess you started ignoring all of my responses

Yeah I know what you were saying, but Islam is largely tied to Arab identity, history, culture, etc. Non-Arabs are only in it because they believe in the one God.

Anyway my point was about diversity. If you want to go full Muhammed follower, drop your ethnic identity, culture, language, etc. as they are redundant if you want to be 100% Muslim. (since Muslim itself is an identity)

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Yeah I know what you were saying, but Islam is largely tied to Arab identity, history, culture, etc. Non-Arabs are only in it because they believe in the one God.

Anyway my point was about diversity. If you want to go full Muhammed follower, drop your ethnic identity, culture, language, etc. as they are redundant if you want to be 100% Muslim. (since Muslim itself is an identity)

In some sense , in that it arose in the lanscape of Arabia and in conjunction with conflicts with Arab tribes, but not exclusively, some of the prominent companions of the Prophet were Salman Al-Farsi (ra) and Shuaib Al-Rumi, Bilal (Habshi)

the use of Arabic in Islamic lexicon is as a vehcile or tool as far as Islamic practice is concern. There's no requirement that you have to start speaking it at home with your family or something.

Outside of that, the idea of an exclusive Arab possession of Islam is not really substantiated. You can be 100% Muslim and celebrate Nawroz, Islam doesn't deal with those matters.

[Firdousi]

Have you ever been to the Middle East before? Slavery was widespread across North Africa and the Middle East until the fall of the Ottomans right up until the 20th century. Today slavery still exists, only now it is unsanctioned as slavery but sanctioned as indentured labor called kafala in Gulf Arab countries. Slavery in Islam has been permitted for most it's history.

You appear not to know what progressive means either. Progression means change, which is the opposite of what you seem to be arguing about Islam which is that it is static and unchanging. Based on what you've been trying to argue, Islam is not progressive at all. You need to be clear in your mind what you actually believe in and what you think you know about things.

The institution of slavery was quite different in the Islamic world than in the West. In the Islamic world Muslims developed a sophisticated and complex system of "slave-soldier-politicians". They were not "oppressed human beings" but ran a f*cking Caliphate. The Devshirme system is a good example of it: Christian kids were raised in the Islamic faith in order to become vizirs, civil servants and soldiers of the main elite force: the Jannisaries. Not slaves in the Western sense of the word.

Also I see many Muslims a bit confused due to Western liberal propaganda. Islam is not a "Liberal faith" per se, but rather quite conservative. But as Iblis pointed out, its at the same time quite dynamic and flexible. Islam has adapted to different realities, regions, races and cultures. Islam of Senegal is not the same Islam than practiced in Afghanistan, Bosnia or Indonesia.

Also there is this tradition in Islam that says that every century a reformist wave starts and helps Islam to revive and adapt. Its called Sawwah al Islamiyyah.

Islam is an exceptional faith. Its values are by far (i am being kinda biased here I know) superior than any other faith. Islam means strength, moderation and self-improvement. All these modern Islamist forces are an utter failure for they are trying to fit a 1400 years old tradition into a modern-Western political structures.

[Firdousi]

It's one thing to submit to God, and another thing to give human beings a similar level of authority.

To be frank with you guys, this level of hostility towards anything pre-Islamic that are otherwise in no way in conflict with Islam, will only persuade people away from Islam, not encourage them to be ''more'' Muslims. Islam encompasses a vast region, there are platitudes of different cultures. You start banning this, and banning that, to create some sort of uni/pan Islam culture, you will end up with negative results.

It's very likely Nowroz has been celebrated in central asia for 5000-6000 years, probably since the time the Iranic/Aryan tribes were born, let alone the 1000s years later coming of Zoroaster. This region has been Muslim for close to 1000 years now, and in all that time people have still celebrated Nowroz without deviating away from Islam. Like someone else said in another thread, this is like fixing something that don't need fixing.

Nothing will really change. People will keep celebrating Nowruz. Iranian traditions are proving to be extremely deep-rooted and resilient. 1400 years of Islamic rule and still most of Western and Eastern Iranian people have kept their cultures and idiosyncrasy.

This is quite remarkable: Greeks, Mongols, Arabs, Westerners,.. all these forces completely defeated Aryans and our ancestors were 100% exposed and at their mercy. Still it was invaders who ended up assimilating and not the other way around. Even the Taliban failed to eradicated all these traditions. Its impossible to do.