Is Pashtunwali Pagan?

[Akbar]

Ok I see nothing there that I can discern as a personal attack ....maybe you're just being defensive.

Ok if that's your understanding that we will leave it to that.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

What is swarlay?
I thought it means a ride.

yes, that's what it means ...it's when you give a girl as a bride as a way to "mend" broken ties or to appease someone that's very powerful. It's called "swarlay" because I think originally they sent her to them on the back of a donkey or something? I can't be sure on that part, but it's called swarlay. It's a bit more rare now but it was common in my grandparents time for sure. It's a tribal custom.

[Akbar]

yes, that's what it means ...it's when you give a girl as a bride as a way to "mend" broken ties or to appease someone that's very powerful. It's called "swarlay" because I think originally they sent her to them on the back of a donkey or something? I can't be sure on that part, but it's called swarlay. It's a bit more rare now but it was common in my grandparents time for sure. It's a tribal custom.

Ok I get it
You mean pa bado ke warkawal.
Yes that is abhorrent and I have never seen or heard it happen to anyone. Also there is a claim that people in shinwar used to sell their women , might be true claim but I haven't seen evince of it apart from some anti Pashtun media. Than again these abhorrent practices are banned by Islam and Sharia .

[maneatinglizard]

Ok I get it
You mean pa bado ke warkawal.
Yes that is abhorrent and I have never seen or heard it happen to anyone. Also there is a claim that people in shinwar used to sell their women , might be true claim but I haven't seen evince of it apart from some anti Pashtun media. Than again these abhorrent practices are banned by Islam and Sharia .

It’s still common, but to be honest, I don’t really see it as anti-Shariah. There’s nothing in Shariah that prohibits marriage to bring families closer together, and from the cases I know about, the wife is treated just like any other wife.

The only part of it that's contradictory to Shariah is that the woman isn’t consulted, but women are never consulted in any marriage in our culture, so it’s not specifically a flaw of this practice.

A better example of something that’s anti-Shariah in Pashto is walwar. Any payment that’s demanded by either family in a marriage is unlawful save the Mahr from the groom to the bride. If it was merely considered an optional gift it’d be fine, but in our culture people won’t give their daughters without walwar being paid.

[khushal]

Pashtunwali is a moral code, but some aspects of it does conflict with Islam. Many pashtuns including those that live in pashtunland actually dont know what pashtunwali is and make stuff up for their own interests.

[khushal]

It’s still common, but to be honest, I don’t really see it as anti-Shariah. There’s nothing in Shariah that prohibits marriage to bring families closer together, and from the cases I know about, the wife is treated just like any other wife.

The only part of it that's contradictory to Shariah is that the woman isn’t consulted, but women are never consulted in any marriage in our culture, so it’s not specifically a flaw of this practice.

A better example of something that’s anti-Shariah in Pashto is walwar. Any payment that’s demanded by either family in a marriage is unlawful save the Mahr from the groom to the bride. If it was merely considered an optional gift it’d be fine, but in our culture people won’t give their daughters without walwar being paid.

Walwar is supposed to be used on the bride, we call it dunya, but people pocket it which is actually a baighyrat thing to do. Many times the groom family will give paighor to the bride if her family did not contribute anything to her.

[khushal]

Ok I get it
You mean pa bado ke warkawal.
Yes that is abhorrent and I have never seen or heard it happen to anyone. Also there is a claim that people in shinwar used to sell their women , might be true claim but I haven't seen evince of it apart from some anti Pashtun media. Than again these abhorrent practices are banned by Islam and Sharia .

This is true. Many in family has seen it. One of our kaliwal who was widowed couldnt get married again to a local woman cause no one would give their daughter to him because he was old went to that area and married a widow who was basically sold to him by her laiwar(her late husbands brother).

pa bado ke warkewal is actually an old practice that was very common in many societies including English(King Henry VII marrying Elizabeth of York ending the war of the roses) who would marry women so the two warring clans can become blood related to end feuds. As I said many people make things up and just give their women away to save themselves from retribution. Thats not pashtunwali, they are just doing it for their own interests.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I would say 80% of Pashtunwali is good, but there are 20% which either seems like it can easily be misused or just outrightly incorrect. None the less, I can see the value of Pashtunwali from a purely anthropological level. If it is Islamic or pre-Islamic doesn't matter. It teaches some important concepts about self identity and self respect which are crucial. Not even the Arabs, from which our conventional notion of Islam emerged from, have or had that in the same sense Pashtuns have it.

[Akbar]

This is true. Many in family has seen it. One of our kaliwal who was widowed couldnt get married again to a local woman cause no one would give their daughter to him because he was old went to that area and married a widow who was basically sold to him by her laiwar(her late husbands brother).

pa bado ke warkewal is actually an old practice that was very common in many societies including English(King Henry VII marrying Elizabeth of York ending the war of the roses) who would marry women so the two warring clans can become blood related to end feuds. As I said many people make things up and just give their women away to save themselves from retribution. Thats not pashtunwali, they are just doing it for their own interests.

I'm not talking about How it was and was meant to be.
Nowadays the girl is mostly given into some sort if slavery where she would be seen as the sister of the killer and end up living a life of utter misery.

Off course it was ment as a union and becoming relatives to end the feuds between families or clans.

[khushal]

I'm not talking about How it was and was meant to be.
Nowadays the girl is mostly given into some sort if slavery where she would be seen as the sister of the killer and end up living a life of utter misery.

Off course it was ment as a union and becoming relatives to end the feuds between families or clans.

Yes which is actually a very baighyrat thing to do. The man is supposed to sacrifice himself to save the woman but he is sacrificing his namos to save himself.

[khushal]

Also I would like to add that not all tribes practice pashtunwali the same way. I know some kharoti from paktika here in the states and they have practices that are foreign to us and we would consider those practices as baighyrat.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Also I would like to add that, not all tribes practice pashtunwali the same way. I know some kharoti from paktika here in the states and they have practices that are foreign to us and we would consider those practices as baighyrat.

are they from Katawaz by any chance?

[khushal]

are they from Katawaz by any chance?

yes, how did you guess?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

yes, how did you guess?

I have a sense we're thinking about the same people ....

[Admin Khan]

There are plenty of un-Islamic things that rural Pashtuns who follow Pashtunwali do, just like how there are plenty of un-Islamic things in Nowruz.