'I Cheated On My Boyfriend With My Rapist'

[kunatawar]

It's the idea that if a woman isn't under guard.....then that naturally implies she's a valid target and that looking for the opportunity where a woman is accessible is a priority to strike.

very true, the idea that if a woman is outside without a guardian and not completely covered then she is fair game is prevalent in muslim societies, seen it first hand myself. but this thought process is still very popular in the west too.

[Azmal]

This isn't about Islamist vs. Non-Islamist; it's about appearances vs. reality.

You were born and raised in states and have never visited Afghanistan in your life, the reality in Afghanistan part of the world is always “Islamist vs secularist” mindset. Mind you I do agree that it has nothing to do with actual Islam… at least not with Islam I was born and raised in. These Islamic republics like that of Iran, Pakistan, or even Afghanistan…or thousands of Mullahs cares not if its citizens transcendentally are religiously pious and moral. It only cares that they obey it unquestioningly and remain passive. Religion in the Muslim worlds is an exploited instrument of control, not a moral guideline.

Th Tunisian men I spoke about were not Islamists; they were just predatory men looking to target young girls who they thought were embodients of characters on Baywatch or some American TV show they used to see in Tunisia.

There is hardcore porn channel that airs free in middle east/central/south Asia...rumors in Afghanistan has it's Israel channel but the point is sex and sexual deprivation is being exploited...specially in Afghanistan with high price of marriage/Wolwari/Toyana.

There's underlying layers and factors involved here, it's a mix of distorted attitudes about morality and social expectations and the preoccupation with "appearances" of virtue rather than actual content of character.

I agree with last part, for most Mullah and religious folk’s morality and virtue is based on faith—more about pretense to faith. An absolutely majority of our people don't even know what it is said in Qurhan let understand Islam. Then war and lake of hope for future has something to do with it as well.

But Firdousi is right, The Harvey Weinstein scandal and #MeToo movement is evidence that shows the failures of Liberalism and permissive societies in curbing sexual predatory behavior. but rather it's enabled it by retaining the view of women as instruments of gratification. Which isn't surprising because it's a culture that almost glorifies self indulgence and lack of restraint.

That is the problem with most of Islamsit or religious folks, they are looking for absolutism in a variable world. lol The simple fact the !Metoo movement had begun to make right the wrongs and the effect of it all over world specially among Muslims that today Muslims women find the courage to talk about sexual assault and harassment during Haj shows Liberal democracy success. Mind you it is by no means a perfect system but much better then alternative.

So it's not conservatism that's the issue, it's the salient attitude that women are disposable and expendible, that people are not accountable for their behavior; that morality isn't about content but appearances or displays.
This abstracts to both liberalists and extreme rigid conservatism alike.

Don’t take me wrong, I’m not saying conservatism is the issue either, the point is ruling theocracy wishes to inspire fear to keep revolution at bay. If you can end up in prison for having the wrong haircut, what would happen if you took up arms against the government? It's a reminder of the all-encompassing power of the clerics. If you look in Quran it is quite simple, chapter 10 verse 99 says that if God wanted he could've easily had everyone on earth have faith- and it is a mockery to force people to believe. But the Mullahs or the governments in Muslim word isn't about Islam, it’s about control. Just like the US isn't about democracy. This is about despotic governance, not inculcation of modesty. Mullahs cares not if people transcendentally are religiously pious and moral. It only cares that they obey it unquestioningly and remain passive.

[Azmal]

In societies, its usually the weak that fall victim to such abuse or more so access to the weak and vulnerable.
In conservative societies, women are pretty much protected or secluded from men which does not mean it doesnt happen but it's usually young boys who are the main victims of sexual abuse.

In liberal societies, women, young boys and girls are victims of predators who are usually men. As long as the access is there, predators will take advantage which is why conservative societies usually tend to segragate women from men.

Also, Azmal is an idiot.

What is up with you Pakis and name calling? Seriously you guys are taking these dicussion so personal....just calm down and argue your point AfghanistanmustacceptDurrandline Kushal.

[Azmal]

I don't know if we can honestly say women are protected in conservative societies either. There's a strange psychology I noticed among people from societies that claim to be conservative, and it's not necessarily unanimous or universal but it's prevalent.

It's the idea that if a woman isn't under guard.....then that naturally implies she's a valid target and that looking for the opportunity where a woman is accessible is a priority to strike. I'm not claiming here that this is what convservative values teach; but this is what many conservative societies haven't addressed.

Yes I agree, the ideal is that women should be safe guarded, but from who ? I'd imagine that a society where most of its members hold a certain sense of principles and values would naturally be averse from targeting women in any circumstance; even if she happened to be walking naked. Of course, this doesn't mean women should be given that license, but that the adherence to such values is so strong that such an event wouldn't make people look for an opportunity to indulge a vice.

This is what I meant, the focus in many of these societies is appearing virtuous NOT BEING Virtuous. That's what I feel is significant part of the landscape of the problem.

Liberalism; obviously, indulgence and gratification is the central themes, so it would be unsurprising to see people looking for ways to indulge. They have an alternate paradox. That they thought letting the reigns loose would make people no longer interested in vice ....no, it just groomed a society that is lured to vice. Strange how things work out.

Not necessary and it depends on meaning of vice..i think in finally analyze the main problem of Liberalism is that it sells nothingness...while religion sells after life/haven.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

That is the problem with most of Islamsit or religious folks, they are looking for absolutism in a variable world. lol The simple fact the !Metoo movement had begun to make right the wrongs and the effect of it all over world specially among Muslims that today Muslims women find the courage to talk about sexual assault and harassment during Haj shows Liberal democracy success. Mind you it is by no means a perfect system but much better then alternative.

I'm just going to concentrate on this part since this is the one I think we're may really depart on, most other things you relayed I at least relate and/or sympathize with.


Western Liberalism has been around for decades, #MeToo movement has been around a few months. ...perhaps I am misunderstanding you, are you suggesting that Liberal Values is to take credit for a very recent #MeToo moevement? Where was it 20 years ago or 40 years ago?

The cultural social landscape and the social influence it may have on the rest of the world has more factors than you maybe willing to identify. But despite media headlines, I don't think the #MeToo movement has granted any meaningful margin of a voice for Muslim or Non-Western women of sexual assault. It may have inspired a handful of examples sure, but there's no large scale sweeping movement.

What the #MeToo movement demonstrates is that Liberalism has not sufficiently provided the safety and liberty it claims to offer for women. On the contrary it just enabled women to be accessible to predators and social manipulators. It shows that Western society's values are not as noble as they portray. This has nothing to do with Absolutism; but a tremendous gulf and divide between Appearance and Reality. While women are offered an opportunity to protest ....they came out in protest in extrordinarily large numbers for a reason .....that women are not safe even in a Liberalist society.

We both agree the pretentious nonsense of Muslim societies is full of crap; but Westerners claim to be the pioneers of progress....we have hundreds of years of backwards customs to sort through, What is liberalism's excuse?Sure a feminist will say that patriarchy is so "ingrained" in society or something, but we have more social and legal resources for women that this claim is just absurd.

There has to be a better way than simply "liberal" or "conservative" dichotomy or anything like that. There is more at play here than Islamist vs. Non-Islamist because that mentality transcends both when it comes to women. That's why I mentioned those Tunisian guys, they were basically predators in waiting and definitely not Islamists. I'm sure there are people who are Islamists who are also predators, so don't misunderstand me, but they're predators fior other reasons, not because they're Islamists, maybe that's their vehicle to gain access to people's trust, but it's a deeper issue.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Not necessary and it depends on meaning of vice..i think in finally analyze the main problem of Liberalism is that it sells nothingness...while religion sells after life/haven.

Well here it means little to no self control or restraint. Gratification and indulgence are the emphasized virtues. Perhaps one can claim religious establishment enforce deprivation to the point of madness. Maybe they're two sides of the same coin

[khushal]

It's the idea that if a woman isn't under guard.....then that naturally implies she's a valid target and that looking for the opportunity where a woman is accessible is a priority to strike. I'm not claiming here that this is what convservative values teach; but this is what many conservative societies haven't addressed.

The values are there but people don't care to follow them. No one in the Muslim societies nor Western societies can publicly say abusing anyone is OK. The Moroccans telling you stories privately is the same as Trump privately telling Billy Bush about how he attacks women and him laughing in agreement but they could never say it publicly because the society will ridicule them. they know what is right and wrong, they just don't care. Its about control. They feel superior by saying/doing such things.

Look at your buddy Samandri aka Loopy, when feels cornered, he quickly attacks women in a very vile way and has no shame about it because he feels that is the manly thing to do. He feels superior or worthy all of a sudden when his week intellect is portrayed in public.

Education and consequences for actions is what is needed but some will always slip through the cracks, the psychopaths and what have you.
Also it should be addressed that the shame belongs to the perp and not the victim. Most societies put shame on the victim which is usually the woman when such crimes occur.

[khushal]

What is up with you Pakis and name calling? Seriously you guys are taking these dicussion so personal....just calm down and argue your point AfghanistanmustacceptDurrandline Kushal.

calm down. I just threw that in there for a laugh.

But your point about turning this into a religious or secular thing is going off the tangent. This is a human problem that exists in every society and its better to discuss the how and the why different societies deal differently with this problem.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

The values are there but people don't care to follow them. No one in the Muslim societies nor Western societies can publicly say abusing anyone is OK. The Moroccans telling you stories privately is the same as Trump privately telling Billy Bush about how he attacks women and him laughing in agreement but they could never say it publicly because the society will ridicule them. they know what is right and wrong, they just don't care. Its about control. They feel superior by saying/doing such things.

Look at your buddy Samandri aka Loopy, when feels cornered, he quickly attacks women in a very vile way and has no shame about it because he feels that is the manly thing to do. He feels superior or worthy all of a sudden when his week intellect is portrayed in public.

Education and consequences for actions is what is needed but some will always slip through the cracks, the psychopaths and what have you.
Also it should be addressed that the shame belongs to the perp and not the victim. Most societies put shame on the victim which is usually the woman when such crimes occur.

They were Tunisians; but they weren't just telling me private stories; they were sitting around lurching looking for targets ....part of me felt sad that these guys are Muslims and another angry that these guys are Muslims.


WHat I'm saying is that we do have those values, obviously no one wants their sister or daughter to be subject to this kind of stuff; but we have these contradictions and paradoxes. There are people who think any other woman is fair game as long as she's not in my family. Then there are people who think, "as long as she's not Muslim it's OK". ...or some permutation of that. I used to think it was less so among Afghans, but not as much now.

You're relaying precisely what I'm saying, we don't confront these issues. We focus more on appearances than the actual core. I agree we can't police everyone, so there will be predators and psychopaths who do these things but we also have to look at how the social climate and attitudes facilitates ways for predatory people to take advantage and curb their antics. Education and awareness is definitely an important step in that direction.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You should speak for yourself, remember each one of us here are representing ourselves only. The irony is how your view is in line with that of communist father of Firdaws...those that don't agree with you are labeled foreigners..while in reality the groups that you are diehard supporter are proxy/bitches of foreigners.

Yet secular "humanism", white Christian soldiers and "diversity of belief" is innate and native to Pashtun lands?

Any thing Islamic even from Arab lands is far far far far more innate than Zalmay Khor and his husband Cheryl Bernard compadre, even if you hate to hear that.

Same goes for Ghani monkey and his Rula.

[khushal]

There are people who think any other woman is fair game as long as she's not in my family. Then there are people who think, "as long as she's not Muslim it's OK". ...or some permutation of that. I used to think it was less so among Afghans, but not as much now.

Those are excuses they make up to suppress the guilt cause they know its wrong.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Those are excuses they make up to suppress the guilt cause they know its wrong.

of course, but it's rooted in the idea that women are legitimate targets for predation .....how would that even come into their mind? It's salient but it gets encouragement from somewhere.

[khushal]

of course, but it's rooted in the idea that women are legitimate targets for predation .....how would that even come into their mind? It's salient but it gets encouragement from somewhere.

natural selection

and rap videos

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

natural selection

and rap videos

lol sure in America ....but I mean even back in the Muslim world..yeah of course aggregate cumulations of human behavior over evolution is a factor, but that's where we need to constantly check this and not simply, as you say blame put all the burden on women where unless she's under complete isolation, she's a worthy target.

[Firdousi]

Even though Khostai took personal shots at me for completely unprovoked reasons in this thread.

I'm going to extend an olive branch. ....I actually agree with him. Sexual abuse and harassment are astromical in the Muslim world. The reason why we don't have any hard data on it is because

a.) Repercussions against women make them more likely to be silent.

b.) the Social Insitutions almost always disregard women's recourse to the justice system.

c.) Sexual abuse is most common at home and among families; though the level of sexual harassment in the the public domain such as at work would itself cause alarm.

If we had a proper study we can have a clear idea of its prevalence; but unndoubtedly its prevalence cannot be ignored. All the time I hear about women in Cairo being creeped on as they try to walk down the street. In Syria, women who are going to get Food and Medicine from UN Relief offices say that they get Propositioned for sexual favors. Saudis are known for traveling internationally to basically stalk out girls for sexual conquests and not taking no for an answer.

I used to think Afghans are "Ghairatmand" so they'd never do such a thing, but Afghan women constantly face sexual harassment and assault, especially in Urban areas. God knows what happens in rural ones. And Pakistan ...geez, do I even have to say ANYTHING? They're Known perverts. The reason why Pakistanis face such hatred abroad is precisely because it's very common for Pakistani males to be indecent and assault women.

I'm not trying to portray that Muslims are just frauds with no values; but our lack of interest in trying to confront these issues has lead to this unspoken about problem that's percolating beneath the surface. If we're going to use this as a "counterpoint" against the social decay of Western societies, we should at least make sure we're using our values for the right ends and making sure these types of people are dealt with. However, very little is done and it reflects poorly on us and reveals the contradictions we harbor.

Now Firdousi too is right; that even with all the resources put on women's issues in the West, Western social values have not been able to keep women safe. On the contrary it seems to encourage and facilitate this social climate where women are instruments for indulging vice in a culture that celebrates vices. Now a case can be made that these creepy perverts and sexual predators in the Muslim world are not a product of its values; but a product of the infiltration of globalization through the influence of Media and Movies. Baywatch used to come to sattelite TV in almost every Middle Eastern country even back in the 90's. Legions of desperate Tea-house and hooka cafe frequenters would religiously watch the show salivating over Pamela Anderson and fantasize about coming to the West to enjoy dalliances with Western women. I used to see these Tunisian men that would often loiter outside of Starbucks and they'd just sit their looking for a chance to flirt with the local college girls. Now while the flirting itself isn't my issue; it was just that they're lecherously searching for "easy prey" one guy had a conversation with me about this once and he remarked "I like blonds , I won't look at any other woman, unless she's blond", While personal preference is one thing, their motives were just to prey on girls. Tunisia is known for being pretty liberal as far as Muslim countries go, but even they have this problem.

But this proposes two important contentions. Firstly it demonstrates a case that Western social models encourage a lack of respect for women. But then secondly we can ask, why is a market for those types of representations even accepted or embraced by Societies and cultures that talk about "Sharaf" and "izzah" or 'ghairat" and "namous" in the first place? Wouldn't such a society have protested and shunned these things being broadcast? We can certainly talk about the serious underlying socioeconomic imbalances that make the climate ripe for this sort of social phenomena to appear. Some of it definitely derives from the extreme forms of conservatism that exist that make marriage and having marriageable relationships affordable. But then how do we explain when sexual abuses happen among family?

There was an Iraqi Shi'a woman who used to blog and she'd talk about how in her family her brothers perpretated sexual abuse on her and her sisters and her parents took a blind eye to it and that these types of abuse were common among her peers. There's a serious problem and we can't just bury our heads in the sand. We must stop pretending we have some "moral precedence" over the West just because our streets have women walking around in chadar. That's not enough.

Afghanistan and the West can not be compared. We have been at war for 4 decades so oblivious all the moral and social values of our country have been eroded. The current sexual degeneracy in the West is the outcome of social engineering. Unlike Afghans who consider women harassment shameful and disgusting, in the West this behavior has been part of their own will. They despise it but at the same time the refuse to acknowledge that they brought it upon themselves.

It doesn't take me by surprise anyway. Feminism has striped women from their real attractive: motherhood. Once women are not considered honorable mothers, sisters or wife anymore, they just become sexual instruments for men. Women have lost all their value and its all feminism fault.

Still its pretty obvious there are many problem in the Islamic world regarding women. But I refuse to believe that those who are as sexual addicted as we are to take the "high ground" and lecture us. Introspection is necessary but I will never take Westerners "advice" seriously basically because they are not out of good will but rather arrogance, ignorance, malice and anti-Muslim bigotry.