The Prospects of Pakhtun Nationalism in Afghanistan's Politics

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

There is nothing contradictory in what I said.

It is well known fact that the first two Afghan-Anglo Wars had to do with bringing in Afghanistan on the side of the British to protect British interests in British India from a Russian attack from the North-West of British India.

When it comes to military games then all is fair!

When the British failed to bring on the Dost Muhammad because they could not fulfill his wishes, he, Dost Muhammad turned to Russia and sided with it. It had nothing to do with Pashtun interests. Our kings were all corrupt.

Finally, many decades later, the British managed to convince Amir Abdur Rahman Khan to carve up a line in order to create a buffer zone. And they did. No war was fought, and if there was war, prior, it was not because the kings did not want to create a buffer zone it was because their demands were not being met.

When Pakistan was created, Afghanistan made a huge mistake by not endorsing prior treaties that existed with that land mass that Pakistan was created on. You can't do that, even Islamically it is wrong to not fulfill your side of the deal.

Now, let us come back to the present. For the time being Pashtuns on both sides have to be obedient to the government they are under. When the time comes that they can deal with the matter diplomatically then fine, but until then it would be in the interest of the whole region for people to stop crying about the past and live and let live.

The only way for the Pashtun to be liberated is to properly follow Islam--you can't pick and choose. Then see Allah's help. Allah works according to a system and you have to obey that system if you want His help.

To unite is Islam's motto, however, not by unlawfully means. For the time being the Pashtun have to be obedient. If they don't care about Islam then they can do whatever they want. But one thing is for sure, they will see disgrace upon disgrace.

The Pashtun have been used as a tool by the British, the Russians, the Pakistani ISI, the US, name it. When things go in their favour they are on the side of their puppet-master; however, when things go wrong, they claim to not know their puppet-master and disassociate themselves from him.

It is not without a reason that we are being subjugated at every front. It is our lack of discipline that we are still stuck in 10000BC.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

There is nothing contradictory in what I said.

It is well known fact that the first two Afghan-Anglo Wars had to do with bringing in Afghanistan on the side of the British to protect British interests in British India from a Russian attack from the North-West of British India.

When it comes to military games then all is fair!

When the British failed to bring on the Dost Muhammad because they could not fulfill his wishes, he, Dost Muhammad turned to Russia and sided with it. It had nothing to do with Pashtun interests. Our kings were all corrupt.

Finally, many decades later, the British managed to convince Amir Abdur Rahman Khan to carve up a line in order to create a buffer zone. And they did. No war was fought, and if there was war, prior, it was not because the kings did not want to create a buffer zone it was because their demands were not being met.

When Pakistan was created, Afghanistan made a huge mistake by not endorsing prior treaties that existed with that land mass that Pakistan was created on. You can't do that, even Islamically it is wrong to not fulfill your side of the deal.

Now, let us come back to the present. For the time being Pashtuns on both sides have to be obedient to the government they are under. When the time comes that they can deal with the matter diplomatically then fine, but until then it would be in the interest of the whole region for people to stop crying about the past and live and let live.

The only way for the Pashtun to be liberated is to properly follow Islam--you can't pick and choose. Then see Allah's help. Allah works according to a system and you have to obey that system if you want His help.

To unite is Islam's motto, however, not by unlawfully means. For the time being the Pashtun have to be obedient. If they don't care about Islam then they can do whatever they want. But one thing is for sure, they will see disgrace upon disgrace.

The Pashtun have been used as a tool by the British, the Russians, the Pakistani ISI, the US, name it. When things go in their favour they are on the side of their puppet-master; however, when things go wrong, they claim to not know their puppet-master and disassociate themselves from him.

It is not without a reason that we are being subjugated at every front. It is our lack of discipline that we are still stuck in 10000BC.

You are justifying one thing which is unislamic and then asking us to accept it under the garb of Islam. That is like saying 2+2 = 3. Lack of discipline and obedience when it does not favour your people is cruel and also stupid. Even dogs can be disciplined to starve to death or eat at their masters command, but it doesn't serve their purpose. I fail to see how you are justifying things that are unislamic through islamic means and then blaming the Pashtuns for that. I don't see the logic.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dear brother, could you please show me where I made a logical flaw.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Dear brother, could you please show me where I made a logical flaw.

Gladly, you accepted that the carving was not in the interests of Pashtuns, and then you said the Pashtuns should be obedient to their situation. Now does that make sense that a nation should be obedient to the very thing that either hampers them or runs contrary to their interests? Saying x is a corrupt king does not eliminate the underlying issue -> i.e. was the division in the interest of Pashtuns, if yes then it is their stupidity to not follow it, if no, then why should they?

Then you mentioned Islam as the way to go, fair enough, but this has nothing to do with the situation that brought the division (which was Gandamak and Durand). I fail to understand how you even made that connection. In terms of honoring their side, well Afghanistan had the treaty with Britain...now if Pakistan wants to use colonial and British law to assume that their are the inheritors to the treaties of their Colonial masters than that is purely colonial law and not islamic. You can't eat the cake and have it too. You can't claim islamic on one instance and discard it later on.

BTW the reason we are 'crying' is because we are a focal point in the region and that makes us susceptible to suffer for other people's strategic games. We have all the right to question and be disobedient when Peerangyaan, Russia, Pakistan, Iran or India play their strategic games in our backyard. Are you suggesting we be docile and diplomatically tell them to let us go. Hmm that is really logical isn't it? Oh how should we approach them? Shall we go to Washington, or Islamabad and humbly ask them

"Dear Sir/Madam, don't use our areas for your strategic game...i mean really, we humbly request you..Oh and if you are not convinced, here are some chaplii kebabs.
Signed with love and Attanr,
Pashtuns/Afghans. "

BTW what are the islamic means and what are unislamic? Because as far as I see it, you are asking us to justify our situation which was based on unislamic grounds.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Dear friend, let me put this way: When the King decides something it affects everyone. Period.

When someone crosses a red light and gets hit, everyone suffers.

Our Kings were ALL corrupt. If one did not make the deal the other did. The only reason why one did not do it is because his demands were not met. But he was just as ready to sell his land as the one who did.

When the Durand Line was carved. There was no uprising. The real uprising happened when the State of Pakistan was created. Now imagine, Afghanistan being a Muslim country sided with India over another Muslim country, just as did the Muslim clergy of the now Pakistan who were against the its creation.

Afghanistan jumped the gun. Had they waited for 1993 things might have been different. But instead the enmity between Pakistan and Afghanistan started at the General Assembly session of 1947 when they were voting for the creation of the State of Pakistan. The only two countries that did not vote for it was Afghanistan and India.

Now that a leader has given up something, we must be obedient and move on with life until we can choose a leader who will stand up for our interests.

Life is too short to worry about a border. This life is not about the Pashtun or the Punjabi or the Arian race or Japanese or the Chinese or the Native of Australia. You are here to fulfill a purpose for your creation. We have been created as tribes and sub-tribes for the purpose of distinction not for the purpose of borders.

Today, all sorts of people live happily in the West. It is a model that can help man achieve his purpose instead of worrying about archaic cartographic pieces of paper.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Dear friend, let me put this way: When the King decides something it affects everyone. Period.

When someone crosses a red light and gets hit, everyone suffers.

Our Kings were ALL corrupt. If one did not make the deal the other did. The only reason why one did not do it is because his demands were not met. But he was just as ready to sell his land as the one who did.

When the Durand Line was carved. There was no uprising. The real uprising happened when the State of Pakistan was created. Now imagine, Afghanistan being a Muslim country sided with India over another Muslim country, just as did the Muslim clergy of the now Pakistan who were against the its creation.

Afghanistan jumped the gun. Had they waited for 1993 things might have been different. But instead the enmity between Pakistan and Afghanistan started at the General Assembly session of 1947 when they were voting for the creation of the State of Pakistan. The only two countries that did not vote for it was Afghanistan and India.

Now that a leader has given up something, we must be obedient and move on with life until we can choose a leader who will stand up for our interests.

Life is too short to worry about a border. This life is not about the Pashtun or the Punjabi or the Arian race or Japanese or the Chinese or the Native of Australia. You are here to fulfill a purpose for your creation. We have been created as tribes and sub-tribes for the purpose of distinction not for the purpose of borders.

Today, all sorts of people live happily in the West. It is a model that can help man achieve his purpose instead of worrying about archaic cartographic pieces of paper.

Corruption doesn't mean we should accept something that works contrary to us. Again, we are a focal point of politics and if we don't ensure ourselves some space generations suffer. If history is any indicator, we will suffer the ire of other powers if we stay docile. It is more than a piece of cartography it is a piece of history that hampered generations and will continue to do so. Do you know why there is a FATA in place? It isn't due to just a piece of cartography, it ensures Pakistan (and British before them) strategic ground to weaken Pashtuns on either side of the durand line. Same goes for the multiple forms of divisions Pashtuns have east of the durand line. I.e. Southern Pashtunkhwa (North Balochistan), PATA, FATA, FR, settled districts.

People live happily in the west, because they went through many bloody changes..had those changes not been implemented Europe would have been the same bloody mess it was 50 years ago. You are looking at things from a very short term perspective.

There were uprisings but scattered ones and they happened on and off. West of the durand line Emir Abdur Rahman also killed many Ghilzais who he saw as a threat to his power (and probably the British did as well). So it is not as if people were docile. Faqir i ipi continuously fought for it even after the creation of Pakistan. Afghanistan had to question Pakistan at its creation since: a) it had no deal with them and hence accepting it gives the impression it accepts its borders, b) to set precedent and support for Faqir i ipi and Khudae Khidmathgaars (who btw were the politically mandated party in the pashtun areas which could vote), who rejected the referendum. What else was Afghanistan supposed to do? Tell Pashtunkhwa people, sorry we can't help you because this magical islamic state created by Britain is here and we will talk to you in 1993. Come on saiba, that is hardly realistic.

Your last point is extremely dangerous one because essentially you are making a case for the status quo. I.e. life is short, why bother with political rights or dignity. You are going to die anyways. Then every state should accept its fate, every people should accept it and never rise up..as life is too short in the end we all end up six feet under right? What is the point of anything then?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You missed my point. Life is not about borders, my friend. Life has a greater purpose.

Being a Muslim, we were already foretold about vicious kings. If one was not the other would have been.

Since the inception of Pakistan, Afghanistan has been at its throat. WHY? Over a piece of land? The same king who did not like the creation of Pakistan is the same king who subjugate his people to illiteracy. His cousin who did not like him, who wanted a Pashtuanistan sided with Russia when the US failed to give it aid. Is the type of people you want to bring back a Pashtunistan?

Who were the Communists? They were ALL Pashtun. Who were the Mujahiddeen who fought? Most of them were Pashtun. Who were the Taliban? Pashtun! Who is Karzai? Pashtun. Follow the pattern?

Who do you want to help us? A Pashtun? You got to be kidding me? We have sold our own people for pocket change.

The only thing left is for us to simple submit to our Creator and wait until His judgement passes. Until we submit to Him, we will continue to suffer and be used a tools. Let us just forget about this border business and re-focus our energy and strength on the real purpose of our mortal days here on earth, which is to understand that this is but a transitory period in the realm of our main objective.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

You missed my point. Life is not about borders, my friend. Life has a greater purpose.

Being a Muslim, we were already foretold about vicious kings. If one was not the other would have been.

Since the inception of Pakistan, Afghanistan has been at its throat. WHY? Over a piece of land? The same king who did not like the creation of Pakistan is the same king who subjugate his people to illiteracy. His cousin who did not like him, who wanted a Pashtuanistan sided with Russia when the US failed to give it aid. Is the type of people you want to bring back a Pashtunistan?

Who were the Communists? They were ALL Pashtun. Who were the Mujahiddeen who fought? Most of them were Pashtun. Who were the Taliban? Pashtun! Who is Karzai? Pashtun. Follow the pattern?

Who do you want to help us? A Pashtun? You got to be kidding me? We have sold our own people for pocket change.

The only thing left is for us to simple submit to our Creator and wait until His judgement passes. Until we submit to Him, we will continue to suffer and be used a tools. Let us just forget about this border business and re-focus our energy and strength on the real purpose of our mortal days here on earth, which is to understand that this is but a transitory period in the realm of our main objective.

Well considering that you really don't have a point to begin with, it makes sense as to why I 'missed' it.

Your second part is just oversimplifications of history. I already told you it is more than just a piece of land. There is a historical and geo-strategic point to it as well (as I have previously mentioned and you choose to overlook).

About all the bad and associating it with Pashtuns...well let me reverse that faulty logic of yours. Who started the anglo-afghan wars and division? English (non-pashtuns). Who fought their cold war on our soil? Americans, Pakistan, Saudi, and Russia (all non-Pashtuns). Who brought their 9/11 mess and double game to our land? Non-pashtuns. See the pattern ;-).

Ok I am a muslim, I accept Allah, but that has nothing to do with being docile. A docile individual does not equate the acceptance of our Creator. That is a fatalistic way of thinking about things.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

By the way, the reason why the West has figured out how to live is because they have figured out a golden rule which Islam teaches: separate religion from the matters of the state.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Well considering that you really don't have a point to begin with, it makes sense as to why I 'missed' it.

Your second part is just oversimplifications of history. I already told you it is more than just a piece of land. There is a historical and geo-strategic point to it as well (as I have previously mentioned and you choose to overlook).

About all the bad and associating it with Pashtuns...well let me reverse that faulty logic of yours. Who started the anglo-afghan wars and division? English (non-pashtuns). Who fought their cold war on our soil? Americans, Pakistan, Saudi, and Russia (all non-Pashtuns). Who brought their 9/11 mess and double game to our land? Non-pashtuns. See the pattern ;-).

Ok I am a muslim, I accept Allah, but that has nothing to do with being docile. A docile individual does not equate the acceptance of our Creator. That is a fatalistic way of thinking about things.

None of it could have happened if the Pashtun did not help.

And it is not about being docile. NOT AT ALL.

We are beggars and we have always been beggars. Let us at least make something of ourselves before we go after our lost land.

What I am saying is stop bickering about some piece of land and start making something with the land we already have. If we can build ourselves from both sides of the border and become strong then we can probably unite one day. But now we need to focus on our daily life and make something of our future instead of reminiscing about what we had.

That is my point.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

None of it could have happened if the Pashtun did not help.

And it is not about being docile. NOT AT ALL.

We are beggars and we have always been beggars. Let us at least make something of ourselves before we go after our lost land.

What I am saying is stop bickering about some piece of land and start making something with the land we already have. If we can build ourselves from both sides of the border and become strong then we can probably unite one day. But now we need to focus on our daily life and make something of our future instead of reminiscing about what we had.

That is my point.

I just told you it is more than just a piece of land...there is a geo-strategic factor that has to be added in. Without it, you can't improve or let alone know your friends from foes. And who were beggars and since when? BTW I am from that lost land, and I am looking at it from the point of view of benefiting both areas.

Part of improving means to politically save yourself from being used by others. You act as if it is just a bunch of us sitting in fantasy land. It isn't, we are talking about interests that eventually lead to peace. However if we don't add that in, we will risk losing it all (whatever little we have). You overlook everything only to stubbornly hold on to a very weak point. It makes little sense.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

And if you want to talk about geo-strategic then fine, go ahead. But don't forget that the more we resist with sticks the more we will suffer. Geo-strategic thought comes to play when you have something to show as power.

One thing you have to realize, my friend, is that respect comes from Allah. The reason why the Pashtun have been suffering is because of our past. We have not been the most nicest people. Our Kings and leaders have used Islam to abuse all sorts of people.

There is the wrath of Allah upon us and our lands. No doubt about it. It will only be removed when we turn to Him humbled. No other way.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

If you want to sit here and devise a political or militarily solution, go ahead and devise all that you want,but know one thing: having NATO in Afghanistan right now is the best thing for us. No doubt.

Let us take advantage of their presence and rebuild as people. Pashtunistan will not be recarved with our twigs. We need properly hegemony and the ability to sustain a Pashtunistan.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

And if you want to talk about geo-strategic then fine, go ahead. But don't forget that the more we resist with sticks the more we will suffer. Geo-strategic thought comes to play when you have something to show as power.

One thing you have to realize, my friend, is that respect comes from Allah. The reason why the Pashtun have been suffering is because of our past. We have not been the most nicest people. Our Kings and leaders have used Islam to abuse all sorts of people.

There is the wrath of Allah upon us and our lands. No doubt about it. It will only be removed when we turn to Him humbled. No other way.

Allah u aalim, I can't make such hefty judgments. If we are suffering for the crimes our Kings did (as you said), then in comparison to other nations cruelties we are in great position. BTW I can't be held liable for the faults of others, it is guilt by association. I and our generation can only do what is best for us now and I can only be held accountable for that. For that matter no human being on this planet can escape such a wrath since there is not a nation who has not indulged in such crimes. King Leopold of Belgium ruined Rwanda and other parts of Africa. However, his country seems to be doing fine, they enjoy a high living standard and last I checked no genocides or wars are happening there. Allah u aalim if they will suffer or not. I can't say.
Lollzz this isn't a battlefield, there are other ways of political dissent, which we can harness. All the weapons of the world couldn't subjugate us, not before, not today and inshallah not in the future. If it were that easy than we would have been like the rest of the world colonized and with a complex. Those sticks arguments work on people that are beaten into submission....our areas haven't so we need to look for a different avenue.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

King Leopold was only after colonization of Rwanda for the purpose of his vault. He was disgraced by the public of Belgium and his legacy is as such. Allah disgraced him and protect his people for they blew the whistle on him. He fooled his own parliament. His parliament was very prudent and questioned him. So, as such the people were saved. In our case, we supported our cruel kings in their cruelty, we never spoke against them, even if we felt it being wrong. See the difference?

We Afghans have failed to do the same with our cruel kings.

Further, everything that the Afghan people do, they do it with the pride of Islam and Quran. It is a deception to get the laymen on the side of the powerful. Don't mess with the sacred things of Heaven for one will be disgraced. Our generation is as guilty.

Read the Quran and read how Allah deals with people. You will see a striking resemblance, my friend.

One thing I want to tell you, I bet you you don't love Afghanistan more than me. Yet, you will bet me that I don't love Afghanistan more than you. You will see this with ALL Pashtun. However, end of the day, one must put things into perspective and understand how Allah works, if He is the God who has created us. If not, then it is a totally different ball game.