Muslim Trouble making

[Karachi]

Don't engage lol. Karachi is going through some phase or compensating for something else going on or possibly an agent provocateur.

The forum is replete with back and forths with him. The gist of his arguments that have consistently been rebutted are

1. Islam is somehow special in its just war theory vs say the just war theories of Aquinas etc that pretty much spawned centuries of violence in the name of Christianity.

When confronted with biblical verses and actual historical acts, many of which took place in recent memory he merely dodged the rebuttal and just restated his original instigation.

2. Islamic violence of today is offensive not in any way defensive and in no way relates to sociopolitical events/neocolonial conflict

Once again, despite countless texts to the contrary by those far more informed than many here (e.g. Scheuer, Pape, Greenwald, etc) being presented merely once again resulted in him outright dismissing their arguments with the classic "anecdote trumps statistics and evidence- my life experiences that no one has proof of are the gold standard."

3. The Islam is Arab imperialism arguments that Soldat Amir used to try his best to pitch here (despite the near millennium rule and Caliphate of the Turks being a pesky historical counterweight that even a 12th grader would have thought of before making an asinine argument).


My only suggestion would be that if you do take him on that the Moderators perhaps consider the following approach:

If he makes an argument and someone rebuts it or provides counter evidence - that his replies be filtered/moderated to force him to reply and provide a response (like for instance, his rape map above was actually reasonable and could stoke discussion).

If he fails to do so (which is most of the time) then his replies do not make it past the filter and his account gets frozen until he manages some reasonable evidence based response or concedes the point.

This would not be muzzling him because he would have the right to respond but the quality of his response would be assessed. Linking to polemics like "answering Islam" or "Islam sucks.org" would be an example of something that would be filtered out.

@Shapur
@torkham

Otherwise, don't waste time on this guy. It was semi fun at first to send him back to the pokey with his figurative tail between his legs but at this point its embarrassing to have to deal with his internal dialogue again and again.

Since you claim to be a scholar here, how do you explain such violence and hatred in the quran? : The Quran's Verses of Violence


To me, this is the basis of why muslims hate non muslims so much, that they can't even be friends with them ever. Obviously this is why there are so many wars between Muslims and Non muslims, this type of hate is the basis for everything

[Karachi]

Why you running from questions? You said most imaams, how many imams is most???

You ignored this: Your telling me a Muslim that prays regularly, abstains from haram and conducts himself in Islamic etiquette is not a practicing Muslim unless he pushes for shariah law to be established where he/she is residing?

In your opinion is that or is that not a practicing Muslim?

do those people who follow 5 pillars, wont believe in Sharia? is that what you are telling me? lol

Go to any scholar you idiot, are you telling me Islamic scholars will go against Sharia? lol hahhaha, that will never happen, because that will be going against quran and hadiths

[Karachi]

So why do you give opinions on what makes a Muslim a real Muslim if you are no scholar.

Also you are and always was a Hindu from Utter Pradesh, stop lying. How can you be deeply into Islam if your knowledge is so shallow. Nonsense who you fooling.

A proper muslim is who follows Quran/Hadiths, I mean is there any argument about this?

[Manzareh]

It's a simple yes or no question.

A Muslim that prays regularly, fast in ramadhaan, abstains from haram and conducts himself in Islamic etiquette in your opinion a practicing Muslim, yes or no?

You can't answer?

[Karachi]

It's a simple yes or no question.

A Muslim that prays regularly, fast in ramadhaan, abstains from haram and conducts himself in Islamic etiquette in your opinion a practicing Muslim, yes or no?

You can't answer?

He is, but if he rejects Sharia at the same time, then he isn't. how can you have a muslim following 5 pillars then he rejects everything the Quran? does that make sense? All muslims who do follow 5 pillars of Islam believe in Sharia as well

heck even most american wanted sharia in a survey: You are being redirected...

[Manzareh]

Ok your answer is yes, ok so when you said earlia most practicing Muslims are (to put it short) criminals. How can this be so? Isn't this obviously just another made up 'fact'?? If it's not then where is your reference that most practicing Muslims are violent/criminals?? You don't have ANY. All this talk of 'most muslims' 'millions of them' 'everyone knows' holds zero weight, this is why you never get anywhere in this place. Yor arguements have no substance, credibility or integrity.

[Manzareh]

He is, but if he rejects Sharia at the same time, then he isn't. how can you have a muslim following 5 pillars then he rejects everything the Quran? does that make sense? All muslims who do follow 5 pillars of Islam believe in Sharia as well

heck even most american wanted sharia in a survey: You are being redirected...

Shariah law is Islamic, it's a complete political and social system. It has to be implemented in its complete form for it to work. According to Shariah we are instructed as Muslims to abide by the laws of the land we are residing so long as we are free to pray and worship. Shariah law can only be implemented in a country which is governed by the Khalifah so there is fair trials, court system, integrated jurisprudence etc.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Since you claim to be a scholar here, how do you explain such violence and hatred in the quran? : The Quran's Verses of Violence


To me, this is the basis of why muslims hate non muslims so much, that they can't even be friends with them ever. Obviously this is why there are so many wars between Muslims and Non muslims, this type of hate is the basis for everything

Show me one quote where I claim to be a scholar. I may be "informed and make educated guesses" but I never claimed accredited scholarship.

We have been over this at least 56 times and you repeatedly dodge responses by providing anecdote and then do not respond when you are cornered.

If the moderators agree to the conditions above where you are forced to reply to each specific argument without side stepping or providing anecdote or red herring polemic (I.e. your posts get screened) I will engage you on this discussions in the coming days.

There are forums that do this, i.e. they have a moderator screen every response of someone like yourself before letting it through.

Otherwise, as an Afghan, I can see a mental war of attrition from a mile away and will not waste my time and treasure stepping into this sand trap.

[MENTION=1470]torkham[/MENTION]
[MENTION=18139]Shapur[/MENTION]

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Most (practicing) muslims you moron, not the secular types like in Dubai, or majority is the west those are ok and peaceful.

Manzareh makes a great point; what is most" give us data ...some actual qualified ACADEMIC research not random numbers or half cocked newspaper polls
REAL data REAL search by QUALIFIED experts ...show us ...

your claims are always based on poor evidence ...typical Indic behavior to divert focus from their Rapist tendencies.

[Elite Pakhtun]

It has everything to do with that

Oh what a great answer. Best answer ever. What possible rebuttal could I have to this most inspired declamation? Tears were shed, by an awe inspired audience, to such profound oratry - surely to inspire movements of the future.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

A proper muslim is who follows Quran/Hadiths, I mean is there any argument about this?

Which can be anyone from Sheikh Hamza Yusuf to Zakir Naik; two people with divergent takes on Islam.

[Karachi]

Show me one quote where I claim to be a scholar. I may be "informed and make educated guesses" but I never claimed accredited scholarship.

We have been over this at least 56 times and you repeatedly dodge responses by providing anecdote and then do not respond when you are cornered.

If the moderators agree to the conditions above where you are forced to reply to each specific argument without side stepping or providing anecdote or red herring polemic (I.e. your posts get screened) I will engage you on this discussions in the coming days.

There are forums that do this, i.e. they have a moderator screen every response of someone like yourself before letting it through.

Otherwise, as an Afghan, I can see a mental war of attrition from a mile away and will not waste my time and treasure stepping into this sand trap.

@torkham
@Shapur

Ok, but please answer the question, I am giving you a direct source (Quran), where the violence is coming from. over 100 verses which encourage violence against others, not just one or two. Isn't this what ISIS is following? isn't this the start point of all violence between muslims/non muslims?

[Karachi]

Ok your answer is yes, ok so when you said earlia most practicing Muslims are (to put it short) criminals. How can this be so? Isn't this obviously just another made up 'fact'?? If it's not then where is your reference that most practicing Muslims are violent/criminals?? You don't have ANY. All this talk of 'most muslims' 'millions of them' 'everyone knows' holds zero weight, this is why you never get anywhere in this place. Yor arguements have no substance, credibility or integrity.

I said anyone who believe in Sharia or Islamic law, like from my source, even 51% of Americans muslims want that

[Karachi]

Shariah law is Islamic, it's a complete political and social system. It has to be implemented in its complete form for it to work. According to Shariah we are instructed as Muslims to abide by the laws of the land we are residing so long as we are free to pray and worship. Shariah law can only be implemented in a country which is governed by the Khalifah so there is fair trials, court system, integrated jurisprudence etc.

So in your 1400 year history, you haven't been able to implement a complete system. great system you have brother

and no, we all know how non muslims are supposed to be treated under sharia, with so many other troubling things about the system, no way it is compatible with modern life

[Manzareh]

So in your 1400 year history, you haven't been able to implement a complete system. great system you have brother

and no, we all know how non muslims are supposed to be treated under sharia, with so many other troubling things about the system, no way it is compatible with modern life

1400 years? the last Khilafah was in 1924 (less than a hundred years) i thought you researched very deeply into Islam and studied at al-azar university. Like i said you lack the most basic knowledge of Islam.