Destroy the myth

[Porus]

Where are you from ? So that I have a better understanding where your thoughts are coming from .

Don't see how that's relevant. Can you respond to my points instead?

[dawn]

Do you have a source regarding that or are you another retarded Pakistani, who pulls things out of his back door.

Still believing its possible to save Afghanistan in current shape despite decades of civil war. Wake up and smell the coffee. If only thing keeping Afghanistan intact is USA then one should realise ground realities.

kabul elites of the past which happened to be afghan pakhtuns were few dozen secular western educated, again far removed from ground realities of 99% afghan pashtuns back then and even now. Afghan pakhtuns are even more conservative, tribal, backward or what ever then so called FATA tribals. FATA itself may not be in mainstream yet but millions of them have moved to other regions of Pakistan, got educated and now want Pakistan laws extended to FATA. It was slow and long process. Instead of imposing secular/western laws which even rest of Pakistan isn't ready to accept.

Afghan delusional elites even believed paki pakhtuns were waiting to be liberated. Pakhtuns in ISI toke full advantage of afghani delusions.

[Friends of Baloch]

Still believing its possible to save Afghanistan in current shape despite decades of civil war. Wake up and smell the coffee. If only thing keeping Afghanistan intact is USA then one should realise ground realities.

kabul elites of the past which happened to be afghan pakhtuns were few dozen secular western educated, again far removed from ground realities of 99% afghan pashtuns back then and even now. Afghan pakhtuns are even more conservative, tribal, backward or what ever then so called FATA tribals. FATA itself may not be in mainstream yet but millions of them have moved to other regions of Pakistan, got educated and now want Pakistan laws extended to FATA. It was slow and long process. Instead of imposing secular/western laws which even rest of Pakistan isn't ready to accept.

Afghan delusional elites even believed paki pakhtuns were waiting to be liberated. Pakhtuns in ISI toke full advantage of afghani delusions.

Is this what they teach you about Afghanistan in Rawalpindi? lol

A black skinned Punjabi claiming that Pashtuns are removed from the realites of other Pashtuns but that he and his fellow daal khor Punjabis are the only ones who know the "ground realities" of Pashtuns? Get out of here stinker.

[Porus]

Still believing its possible to save Afghanistan in current shape despite decades of civil war. Wake up and smell the coffee. If only thing keeping Afghanistan intact is USA then one should realise ground realities.

You can't save Afghanistan without Pakistan cutting support to those who want to destroy it. American officials and soldiers have said this time and time again.

kabul elites of the past which happened to be afghan pakhtuns were few dozen secular western educated, again far removed from ground realities of 99% afghan pashtuns back then and even now. Afghan pakhtuns are even more conservative, tribal, backward or what ever then so called FATA tribals. FATA itself may not be in mainstream yet but millions of them have moved to other regions of Pakistan, got educated and now want Pakistan laws extended to FATA. It was slow and long process. Instead of imposing secular/western laws which even rest of Pakistan isn't ready to accept.

When has the government of Afghanistan claimed to impose secular Western ideals? The Taliban do not represent Islam (I say that as an atheist). They're a bunch of young punks who think they should run a country, even though they have no idea how to, as demonstrated by their previous governance in Afghanistan.

Afghan delusional elites even believed paki pakhtuns were waiting to be liberated. Pakhtuns in ISI toke full advantage of afghani delusions.

So you admit that ISI is taking advantage of Afghanistan? Well that's a good step. Means you know that ISI is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Afghans.

Fact is, whether or not Afghans supported Pakhtun nationalism, the vast majority of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and FATA don't want to join with Afghanistan. So this again, is an imaginary threat dreamed up by the ISI to explain away their mischief in neighbouring countries. Fair enough! If Pakhtoonistan was as prevalent as the call for an independent Balochistan, you might have a case, but that was never the case. You could have easily won over the Afghans after the war, by just respecting their democratic right to govern themselves. It's not a hard thing to do. If you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone.

[Elite Pakhtun]

I am no fan of northern alliance or any other warlords.

At the beginning the government was indeed overrepresented by Farsiwans, but that was due to absence of Pashtuns. Things have slowly turned into a more stable representation of every ethnicity in the government, so today Pashtuns do have their share in the government.

I wouldn't Per se say that it is an ethnic battle, but rather some warlords who struggle to hold power in the government. To keep themselves in power, they turn the politics into an ethnic based ''battle''. To give you an example, when there were presidential election, each candidate had their team completely mixed to make sure every representation of major ethnicity were there. Yet, when things went sour, it turned into an ethnic struggle rather than political. Basically something along the line of what happening in Pakistan, with Imran khan and Nawaz sharif, but Afghans are more outspoken about it.

Basically what is hurdle for Pashtun representation is the insurgency, rather than other ethnicities or other factors for that matter.

Look, I don't know Afghanistan as well as you or other Afghans, but from what I'm gathering, Taliban have local/grass roots support. Yes, they are harsh and extreme, but I'm hearing that the current government is corrupt, and consists of people the locals didn't typically support (i.e. former Northern Alliance members). I'm also hearing that former NA people, who some accuse of being Tajik nationalists, are the people in the govt and hold power in the country. Sounds like a bit of a turf war to me. How much of this have you experienced?

Support — or, at least, a lack of opposition — from the local population has been key to the Taliban’s success. Over a period of a few years, the Taliban gradually crept closer to Kunduz and ultimately embedded its militants in the suburbs. Then, in less than a day, they took over the city.


Reporting from the region makes it clear that the Afghan government lost the population as a result of its corruption. The way it erodes public support is intuitive: Imagine that you are an Afghan civilian generally opposed to the extremism of the Taliban. Yet for nearly everything you need to do — travel to and from work, transport merchandise, enroll in school, open a business — you get shaken down, often by somebody of a different ethnicity. The Taliban, with all its piety, at least might not be corrupt, you start to think.

...

Could the Taliban have returned without government corruption?

I don’t think so. There is nothing magical about the Taliban. They’re Afghans, like the population of Kunduz. If that population was proud of its government, they could keep the Taliban out.

Why Afghanistan Is Going To Fall To The Taliban Again. And It's Not Why You Think. | The Huffington Post

[MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION], you live in the West, but might nice if you shed some light here if you know anyone in Afg etc.

[dawn]

Is this what they teach you about Afghanistan in Rawalpindi? lol

A black skinned Punjabi claiming that Pashtuns are removed from the realites of other Pashtuns but that he and his fellow daal khor Punjabis are the only ones who know the "ground realities" of Pashtuns? Get out of here stinker.

Its not worth responding to your rants unless you reveal your background, sorry. Until then I will continue to assume you are dravidian. Because you are obsessive with caste and dalits. In India african like dravidians are dalits by default.

[Elite Pakhtun]

BTW Northern Alliance doesn't exist anymore. Its just pure propaganda spread by uneducated Pakistanis nationalists. NA joined the government while others were sidelined after few years (Ismael Khan, Sayyaf, etc). So its pure BS.

That's what I meant. "Rumor" is that NA, after NATO invasion, basically became (a large part of) the government in Afg. I've been (hopefully mistakenly) led to believe that NA are predominantly Tajik nationalist types.

[dawn]

You can't save Afghanistan without Pakistan cutting support to those who want to destroy it. American officials and soldiers have said this time and time again.

don't lie to be in good book of delusional afghanis. ISI had little to do with Afghan civil war after 2001.

"Gen Petraeus Debunks Allegations of Duplicity Against Pakistan"

General (Ret) David H Petraeus - Security Challenges Facing the Next US President - YouTube

When has the government of Afghanistan claimed to impose secular Western ideals? The Taliban do not represent Islam (I say that as an atheist). They're a bunch of young punks who think they should run a country, even though they have no idea how to, as demonstrated by their previous governance in Afghanistan.

Taliban represent tribal afghan pashtun culture with islamic touch. What happens when jahil people who can't even write their name are suddenly expected to rule in modern world?

So you admit that ISI is taking advantage of Afghanistan? Well that's a good step. Means you know that ISI is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Afghans.

Fact is, whether or not Afghans supported Pakhtun nationalism, the vast majority of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and FATA don't want to join with Afghanistan. So this again, is an imaginary threat dreamed up by the ISI to explain away their mischief in neighbouring countries. Fair enough! If Pakhtoonistan was as prevalent as the call for an independent Balochistan, you might have a case, but that was never the case. You could have easily won over the Afghans after the war, by just respecting their democratic right to govern themselves. It's not a hard thing to do. If you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone.

When did I deny ISI involvement? Will you now accept Afghanistan involvement in Pakistan internal affairs in to late 70's? What would have happened if civil war broke out in Pakistan back then? Thousands would have died in Pakistan instead. They didn't just made camps for some hindu loving Bacha Khans but also Baloch and Sindhis who were pissed at Zia hanging Zulfiqar Bhutto. Don't play victim card just because tides were turned when ISI decided enough was enough.

Now obviously Afghanistan is broke to the point that they can't even dream of this but back then look at what they were planning with hindu extremists.

"An Afghan PM Once Offered Vajpayee A Chance To Divide Pakistan Between Themselves

It was the late 1970s and Atal Bihari Vajpayee was the External Affairs Minister in the Morarji Desai government. Hafizullah Amin was then the Prime Minister of Afghanistan.

In his autobiography, ‘Beyond the Lines’, Nayar wrote that Amin suggested Vajpayee that India and Afghanistan should attack Pakistan and divide the country between themselves.

That was indeed a very bold statement. To Vajpayee, it was certainly unexpected. Nothing of that sort happened.

In September of 1978, Atal Bihari Vajpayee travelled to Afghanistan. There he met, among other leaders, Prime Minister Amin.

By December 1979, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan as the country descended into a political quagmire. Amin was assassinated by Soviet troops, who he foolishly believed to be on his side till the last moment."
An Afghan PM Once Offered Vajpayee A Chance To Divide Pakistan Between Themselves

Even hindu extremist Vajpayee was bemused at stupidity of Afghan PM.

[Friends of Baloch]

Its not worth responding to your rants unless you reveal your background, sorry. Until then I will continue to assume you are dravidian. Because you are obsessive with caste and dalits. In India african like dravidians are dalits by default.

That's just the thing, nobody cares what you think ugly paki ji I am not interested in your curry opinion about anything and nobody takes your black @ss seriously.

[mungojerry]

That's just the thing, nobody cares what you think ugly paki ji I am not interested in your curry opinion about anything and nobody takes your black @ss seriously.

OK, Dravidian man

[Firdousi]

That's what I meant. "Rumor" is that NA, after NATO invasion, basically became (a large part of) the government in Afg. I've been (hopefully mistakenly) led to believe that NA are predominantly Tajik nationalist types.

The thing is "Northern Alliance" did not mean "Tajik Alliance". It was a mix of all ethnic groups: Hazaras (Muhaqiq), Uzbeks (Dostum) and Pashtuns (Abdul Haq, Mullah Naqeeb, Laghmani, Sayyaf, etc). They were predominantly Tajiks though.

Most of Pakistanis mistake NA and Jamiat Islami. Jamiat is the most important political party in the history of Afghanistan and despite being a religious movement it was also a Tajik nationalist party. Yeah indeed many of them are Tajik nationalists (Atta is a hardcore Tajik nationalists. I believe Massoud himself was a hardcore nationalist but I can't prove it), while others were religious conservatives (Ismael Khan or Rabbani). Many Jamiatis are plain corrupt thieves (Fahim or Abdullah) while others are Afghan patriots (Saleh).

Jamiatis had a huge role in the former government of Karzai but that has changed. They don't control the current government (not as much as they wished I mean).

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

don't lie to be in good book of delusional afghanis. ISI had little to do with Afghan civil war after 2001.

"Gen Petraeus Debunks Allegations of Duplicity Against Pakistan"

General (Ret) David H Petraeus - Security Challenges Facing the Next US President - YouTube

Gen. Petraeus is not an intelligence source and furthermore he was involved in facilitating financial pipeline for Pakistan for the war on terror; clearly he has a role in not making such squandering of money look bad as it would tarnish his rep. Other intelligence sources and at times Petraeus himself contradicts this position.


Petraeus: Karzai concerns about Pakistan 'legitimate' | TheHill

Taliban represent tribal afghan pashtun culture with islamic touch. What happens when jahil people who can't even write their name are suddenly expected to rule in modern world?

Wrong, Ideologically, Taliban draw from Indian deobandism. Very little they did was in line with tribal law. Tribals love music and dance.

[Firdousi]

Look, I don't know Afghanistan as well as you or other Afghans, but from what I'm gathering, Taliban have local/grass roots support. Yes, they are harsh and extreme, but I'm hearing that the current government is corrupt, and consists of people the locals didn't typically support (i.e. former Northern Alliance members). I'm also hearing that former NA people, who some accuse of being Tajik nationalists, are the people in the govt and hold power in the country. Sounds like a bit of a turf war to me. How much of this have you experienced?



Why Afghanistan Is Going To Fall To The Taliban Again. And It's Not Why You Think. | The Huffington Post

[MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION], you live in the West, but might nice if you shed some light here if you know anyone in Afg etc.

Taliban have a wide support among rural Pashtuns and its not for ideological reasons but rather personal (relatives) or practical (they are sick of war or governments corruption and they want peace).. Most of Pashtuns talking on this forum are either Persianized Pashtuns or Westernized Pashtuns, or urban Pashtuns. So they will despise the Taliban.

Vast majority of Afghans despise the Taliban (we non Pashtuns want them dead and many Pashtuns share this view as well). So its not true that Afghans support Taliban.

[Peshawer_222]

That's just the thing, nobody cares what you think ugly paki ji I am not interested in your curry opinion about anything and nobody takes your black @ss seriously.

I cant help but notice your signature . Keep on dreaming . Indian Stooges like you have been killed in Balochistan or caught red handed like Kulbushan Yadev . Meanwhile your BRA is running around all over the world and nobody is giving them asylum . They even got kicked of Thailand for holding anti - Pakistan conference .

Balochistan moot organisers deported from Thailand | Top Story | thenews.com.pk

[dawn]

Gen. Petraeus is not an intelligence source and furthermore he was involved in facilitating financial pipeline for Pakistan for the war on terror; clearly he has a role in not making such squandering of money look bad as it would tarnish his rep. Other intelligence sources and at times Petraeus himself contradicts this position.


Petraeus: Karzai concerns about Pakistan 'legitimate' | TheHill

??

"Former US military commander Gen (R) David Petraeus has said that during his long association with his Pakistani counterparts and interaction with ISI as head of CIA, he could never find a convincing piece of evidence which supported the alleged double game by ISI or its explicit support to elements associated with terrorism."

Wrong, Ideologically, Taliban draw from Indian deobandism. Very little they did was in line with tribal law. Tribals love music and dance.

Pashto music is from India considering most of classical pashto singers are of mirasi caste.