Erdogan: Syrian refugees could become Turkish citizens

[Azmal]

There are good examples of folks who ascribed to Marxism but were truly practicing Muslims. An excellent detailed story of an Achakzai man who went for the hajj etc and was a Marxist is given in Gopal's No Good Man Left Among the Living.

That is the dilemma then….the Orwellian concept of ‘ doublethink’--- the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one mind, and accepting both of them. lol I agree with notation of deep understanding, however I would love to hear your alternative to “nationalism”….how are we to gather our people out of this misery? Political Islam which Pakistan preaches has already leaded to genocide of Pashtuns in Wazeristan, Swat, and destruction of Afghan state and decline of Pashtuns by strategic depth and Kabul must burn policy. As I have stated before the underlying reason for the Islamist enterprise in Pakistan owes itself to the fact that in the absence of any national coherence, political Islam has been the ONLY means at the government's disposal for keeping their synthetic nation glued together. Hence the underlying reason for Pakistan's support of Islamist movements in Afghanistan have nothing to do with religion or any pretense to moral virtue. I agree that ideologies, whether nationalist, religious, or sectarian, prevent people from using their brains and thinking clearly. Subjects thus become veiled by preconceived notions of good and evil… However, I’m not preaching to get Mohmand or Khil’s land or have any imperial design…I want Pashtuns to raise above sum of their individual or tribal ambitions-- as a nation…this is the only way to our survival as people. It is not about Nationalistic tendencies, it is about coming out of tribalism. In my opinion a confederacy is the only way for us tribal Pashtun to consolidate our identity as a people, develop our culture/language…which hopefully our state eventually will evolve and privileges personal autonomy over group identity, and assumes a neutral, non-ethnic state acting for the good of greatest number.(natural evolution of state.) The alternative to confederacy is tribalism and due to our geopolitical location it means endless war in our own land . . . war of every tribe against every other tribe…or against invaders/foreigners. Mind you…just a simplified observation not criticism…. All our wars…even our Jihad which I must say were mostly motivated or lead by non-Pashtuns like Indian Ahmad Shah Barelvi, Uzbek/Tajiks likes of Termezi, Mullah Darwaza and Gujar rather than Yousufzay Akhund of Swat did not lead to positive results… in a sense combat was really no more than the prelude to the bargaining that always followed and there were always rival tribes on side of enemy. This is because for a khan or tribal chieftain what counts is his prestige in the eyes of his equals and not victory won against an external enemy. Political intrigue within the tribe takes place behind closed doors, for tribes it is better to come to some agreement with an enemy who recognizes your local standing than to gain jihad and risk losing your identity within the tribe or against rival tribe. This fact was well understood by all the invaders be it British, who maintained their power by strengthening tribalism, is also the policy being followed by Pakistan.

I disagree, respectfully with notation Pashtuns tribes being distinct… even antagonist historian Sir Olaf Caroe only used socio-economic interest to segregate Pashtun of Pashtunistan from Afghanistan.
I do not doubt of many internal upheavals before, during and after Ahmad Shah baba’s rule…but it cannot agitate the foundation that Ahmad Shah baba created for Pashtun. Some western historian also makes some claims of distinct sociopolitical tribal structure of Gilzay/Durrani vs Eastern Pasthun based on centuries of Saffavid rule Vis a Vis Mughal rule. If I remember correctly Barnnett Rubin in one of his books claims Safavid Shahs imposed elements of the Turo-mongolian Tribal structure on to those Pashtuns living in their territory and it was due to Safavid Turks effort that Abdali(later Durrani) and Ghilzai Pashtuns developed Turkic-style confederation. While the Mughals treated east Pashtuns quite differently, and under Mughals eastern Pashtuns never developed a broad confederation. In my opinion it does not really matter, we can label Baba’s achievement as pure luck or accidental or as result of outside influence but it does not reduce the significant of his achievement for Pashtun as a people. This is why all Pashtuns regardless of tribe consider him a hero and many parents, even uneducated one make a point to name their offspring after him.


I would love to hear how religious groups in current shape led by the Mullahs that want Pashtun population to remain uneducated and docile, which is a similar political tactic used by European rulers during the dark ages---Find a religious base, support it according to your own interpretations and ruthlessly attack innocent people who defy your will---can achieve emancipation of the Pashtuns? Or at least prevent bloodshed of Pashtun?

[Azmal]

But notice it says nothing about how or when these languages came into use. It also doesn't acknowledge any intermediary languages. Since there's no direct evidence, we're only going by speculation here. We should focus on the evidence we have. If we later find evidence that pashto is 2000 years old then we can modify it, but we can't just go by speculation.

What you mean direct evidence? This is like Dave chappelle and his doubts about R Kelly's guilt. Lol How can you explain Pashto, Pamiries and thousands of miles away Ossetian being from the same proto-language then?...which proves ancestors of Pashtuns and Ossetians are by and large the same people because in the past when people moved they took their language with them.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

What you mean direct evidence? This is like Dave chappelle and his doubts about R Kelly's guilt. Lol How can you explain Pashto, Pamiries and thousands of miles away Ossetian being from the same proto-language then?...which proves ancestors of Pashtuns and Ossetians are by and large the same people because in the past when people moved they took their language with them.

Faulty Analogy, a criminal act is a single event which needs something tangible that the event occurred.

No language has a "single" event where the language existed out of space and time.

Direct evidence here would be some type of literature and/or some reference to it from a period of the ancient era.

[Azmal]

Faulty Analogy, a criminal act is a single event which needs something tangible that the event occurred.

No language has a "single" event where the language existed out of space and time.

Direct evidence here would be some type of literature and/or some reference to it from a period of the ancient era.

That is the thing… language evolves over time and in relation to place… Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian language.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

That is the thing… language evolves over time and in relation to place… Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian language.

that's the thing, we don't have any concrete reference that this evolution took place beyond maximum 1,000-1200 years ago. Clearly it did not pop out of a vacuum, but it it was most likely in an infancy stage 1200 years ago and became more clearly defined around 1000 a.d.

But honestly I don't see why we need to believe we existed 2000 + years ago to validate the value of Pashtuns. going full circle the 1000 year hypothesis explains the migrations of Pashtuns within the last millennia.

[Firdousi]

That is the thing… language evolves over time and in relation to place… Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian language.

No matter of much you try to call yourself Bactrian deep inside you know Pashtun culture is an offshoot of the Indian civilization.

[Azmal]

that's the thing, we don't have any concrete reference that this evolution took place beyond maximum 1,000-1200 years ago. Clearly it did not pop out of a vacuum, but it it was most likely in an infancy stage 1200 years ago and became more clearly defined around 1000 a.d.

But honestly I don't see why we need to believe we existed 2000 + years ago to validate the value of Pashtuns. going full circle the 1000 year hypothesis explains the migrations of Pashtuns within the last millennia.

On contrary, languages evolve just as English evolved from old Germanic same as Pashto and Ossetia and rest of Iranian languages from Avestian. Pashto and Pashtun didn’t fall off a vacuum as some flat headed amu Jumpers delusion of Afghan invasion from Suleiman Mountains.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

On contrary, languages evolve just as English evolved from old Germanic same as Pashto and Ossetia and rest of Iranian languages from Avestian. Pashto and Pashtun didn’t fall off a vacuum as some flat headed amu Jumpers delusion of Afghan invasion from Suleiman Mountains.

Not every language follows the exact same pattern of evolution. We already know that Avestan is a root language. That's how we know all the "Paktuye, Pakhta" stuff are false cognates because if Pashto derived from Avestan, then Sha dialect would be predated "Kha". But when and how that happened I'm sorry to say is just guessing and speculation. let's stick to the hard evidence until we get other evidence to support any other hypothesis.

[Azmal]

No matter of much you try to call yourself Bactrian deep inside you know Pashtun culture is an offshoot of the Indian civilization.

Here you go...little germ start his hit and run again... Sanskrit and Avestan are essentially the same language…while Avestian and old Persian are two different languages….this is why Ossetian living in Caucasia ---some 2000 miles away from Pashtuns are more closely related to Pashto than it is to Persian, and its phonology and grammar are very different from Persian.

[Azmal]

Not every language follows the exact same pattern of evolution. We already know that Avestan is a root language. That's how we know all the "Paktuye, Pakhta" stuff are false cognates because if Pashto derived from Avestan, then Sha dialect would be predated "Kha". But when and how that happened I'm sorry to say is just guessing and speculation. let's stick to the hard evidence until we get other evidence to support any other hypothesis.

It evolved from it, off course there was influences of Backhtrian and Saka(Sha dialect of Sakaistan) languages. Else how can you explain the connection of Ossetia and Pashto? A people living thousands of miles apart and never were part of same kingdom/country.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

It evolved from it, off course there was influences of Backhtrian and Saka(Sha dialect of Sakaistan) languages. Else how can you explain the connection of Ossetia and Pashto? A people living thousands of miles apart and never were part of same kingdom/country.

We're talking abiout Pashto here, not Ossetian. I understand there's a lot of political motivation to support this notion of Pashto being 2,000 years old, but the merit of Pashtuns should not depend on whether they are 2,000 years old or not.

[Azmal]

We're talking abiout Pashto here, not Ossetian. I understand there's a lot of political motivation to support this notion of Pashto being 2,000 years old, but the merit of Pashtuns should not depend on whether they are 2,000 years old or not.

It is important for Eastern and Western Iranian languages distinction is not just geographical...Ossetian are in Caucasus which is the north-west of Iranian language area. It is a fact that Pashto, Ossetian, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian languages.
On contrary the flat headed flat earther Khorassanis...for political reasonclaim Pashtun fall from sky 400 years ago.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

[MENTION=1444]Azmal[/MENTION]

That's not really contrary, it just means there are people who take the opposite few for political reasons. Neither perspective is supported by evidence. What I argue is follow the strong evidence we have rather than unsubstantiable speculation. Mentioning Ossetian does not in any way corroborate the antiquity of Pashto as a spoken language.

[Firdousi]

It is important for Eastern and Western Iranian languages distinction is not just geographical...Ossetian are in Caucasus which is the north-west of Iranian language area. It is a fact that Pashto, Ossetian, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian languages.
On contrary the flat headed flat earther Khorassanis...for political reasonclaim Pashtun fall from sky 400 years ago.

Not really. We try to stick to facts, not fairy tails. Pashtun nationalist like you try to turn everything into "Pashtun got an old history" (even this non related thread his been turned into a cheap Pashtun nationalist BS) because you are complexed by your own lack of Pashtun history. You want badly to relate your language to Bactrian because that would boost your own ego.

Pashtuns have always been a tribal and barbaric tribe. A thousand year ago you were like this and in the modern days you guys still barbaric. Not all of you, of course. Every time I read al Biruni I realize that you guys have not changed too much: you still killing each other, harassing people,.. and so on. Instead making up fake fairy tails about the greatness of your tribal language you rather should try to educate your own barbaric people.

Just my two cents.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That is the dilemma then….the Orwellian concept of ‘ doublethink’--- the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one mind, and accepting both of them. lol I agree with notation of deep understanding, however I would love to hear your alternative to “nationalism”….how are we to gather our people out of this misery? Political Islam which Pakistan preaches has already leaded to genocide of Pashtuns in Wazeristan, Swat, and destruction of Afghan state and decline of Pashtuns by strategic depth and Kabul must burn policy. As I have stated before the underlying reason for the Islamist enterprise in Pakistan owes itself to the fact that in the absence of any national coherence, political Islam has been the ONLY means at the government's disposal for keeping their synthetic nation glued together. Hence the underlying reason for Pakistan's support of Islamist movements in Afghanistan have nothing to do with religion or any pretense to moral virtue. I agree that ideologies, whether nationalist, religious, or sectarian, prevent people from using their brains and thinking clearly. Subjects thus become veiled by preconceived notions of good and evil… However, I’m not preaching to get Mohmand or Khil’s land or have any imperial design…I want Pashtuns to raise above sum of their individual or tribal ambitions-- as a nation…this is the only way to our survival as people. It is not about Nationalistic tendencies, it is about coming out of tribalism. In my opinion a confederacy is the only way for us tribal Pashtun to consolidate our identity as a people, develop our culture/language…which hopefully our state eventually will evolve and privileges personal autonomy over group identity, and assumes a neutral, non-ethnic state acting for the good of greatest number.(natural evolution of state.) The alternative to confederacy is tribalism and due to our geopolitical location it means endless war in our own land . . . war of every tribe against every other tribe…or against invaders/foreigners. Mind you…just a simplified observation not criticism…. All our wars…even our Jihad which I must say were mostly motivated or lead by non-Pashtuns like Indian Ahmad Shah Barelvi, Uzbek/Tajiks likes of Termezi, Mullah Darwaza and Gujar rather than Yousufzay Akhund of Swat did not lead to positive results… in a sense combat was really no more than the prelude to the bargaining that always followed and there were always rival tribes on side of enemy. This is because for a khan or tribal chieftain what counts is his prestige in the eyes of his equals and not victory won against an external enemy. Political intrigue within the tribe takes place behind closed doors, for tribes it is better to come to some agreement with an enemy who recognizes your local standing than to gain jihad and risk losing your identity within the tribe or against rival tribe. This fact was well understood by all the invaders be it British, who maintained their power by strengthening tribalism, is also the policy being followed by Pakistan.

I disagree, respectfully with notation Pashtuns tribes being distinct… even antagonist historian Sir Olaf Caroe only used socio-economic interest to segregate Pashtun of Pashtunistan from Afghanistan.
I do not doubt of many internal upheavals before, during and after Ahmad Shah baba’s rule…but it cannot agitate the foundation that Ahmad Shah baba created for Pashtun. Some western historian also makes some claims of distinct sociopolitical tribal structure of Gilzay/Durrani vs Eastern Pasthun based on centuries of Saffavid rule Vis a Vis Mughal rule. If I remember correctly Barnnett Rubin in one of his books claims Safavid Shahs imposed elements of the Turo-mongolian Tribal structure on to those Pashtuns living in their territory and it was due to Safavid Turks effort that Abdali(later Durrani) and Ghilzai Pashtuns developed Turkic-style confederation. While the Mughals treated east Pashtuns quite differently, and under Mughals eastern Pashtuns never developed a broad confederation. In my opinion it does not really matter, we can label Baba’s achievement as pure luck or accidental or as result of outside influence but it does not reduce the significant of his achievement for Pashtun as a people. This is why all Pashtuns regardless of tribe consider him a hero and many parents, even uneducated one make a point to name their offspring after him.


I would love to hear how religious groups in current shape led by the Mullahs that want Pashtun population to remain uneducated and docile, which is a similar political tactic used by European rulers during the dark ages---Find a religious base, support it according to your own interpretations and ruthlessly attack innocent people who defy your will---can achieve emancipation of the Pashtuns? Or at least prevent bloodshed of Pashtun?

Good points to focus in on. Will answer around next Monday as I am traveling.

expect something 7/25 or 26ish