Erdogan: Syrian refugees could become Turkish citizens

[Bengal_Tiger]

Brother, you are a Pakistani Punjabi. You are forbidden to post on Pashtun forums from the request of Iblis efreetzai. Ghairat he to chor do is web site ko. Ye order ek special gandu se aya he. Inki website par 10-15 members he aur bol te he ke Punjabi aur Pakistani nikle. Humay jana cha ye aur ye logh ek dusre ke tattay saaf kar sak te he sukhoon me.

Leave the website man. I am going to leave this website too. Apparently Punjabis are not welcome here, according to the Afghans. They can just debate with themselves.

Rooh a.k.a RazPak/PakWatan,

To be honest I have to agree with you.

This guy, Iblis Efreetzai, drove all the females away from this forum, makes it clear non-Pashtuns are not welcome and is generally abusive and insulting, and a prolific liar.

Before there were different nationalities on this forum e.g. American (white), Australian (white), Polish, Armenian, German, Italian, Russian. Now apart from myself there are only two nationalities, Afghan and Pakistani.

[MENTION=18139]Shapur[/MENTION] are non-Pashtuns welcome on this forum?... and if they are, can you please take action against trolls who constantly try to discourage non-Pashtuns from participating in an online public international forum. If we're not welcome however, I will probably do what Rooh (Pakwatan) is promising to do and leave.

[MENTION=2]Admin Khan[/MENTION]

[Rooh]

Rooh a.k.a RazPak/PakWatan,

To be honest I have to agree with you.

This guy, Iblis Efreetzai, drove all the females away from this forum, makes it clear non-Pashtuns are not welcome and is generally abusive and insulting, and a prolific liar.

Before there were different nationalities on this forum e.g. American (white), Australian (white), Polish, Armenian, German, Italian, Russian. Now apart from myself there are only two nationalities, Afghan and Pakistani.

[MENTION=18139]Shapur[/MENTION] are non-Pashtuns welcome on this forum?... and if they are, can you please take action against trolls who constantly try to discourage non-Pashtuns from participating in an online public international forum. If we're not welcome however, I will probably do what Rooh (Pakwatan) is promising to do and leave.

[MENTION=2]Admin Khan[/MENTION]

Iblis might be a gandu, but you are still a bigger one. Don't try to suck my balls after all the anti-Pakistani **** you said, just because you hate Iblis. Iblis never dedicated threads to Pakistani bashing even though he says bs about Pakistan. That is a typical Afghan trait because they are namak haram and the harami blood runs in their veins.

You on the other hand are a grade A piece of filth.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Iblis might be a gandu, but you are still a bigger one. Don't try to suck my balls after all the anti-Pakistani **** you said, just because you hate Iblis. Iblis never dedicated threads to Pakistani bashing even though he says bs about Pakistan. That is a typical Afghan trait because they are namak haram and the harami blood runs in their veins.

You on the other hand are a grade A piece of filth.

Typical foul-mouthed vulgar language from RazPak/Pakwatan, supporter of the genocidal Pakistani military and Pakistani state terrorism.

[Golden]

Brother, you are a Pakistani Punjabi. You are forbidden to post on Pashtun forums from the request of Iblis efreetzai. Ghairat he to chor do is web site ko. Ye order ek special gandu se aya he. Inki website par 10-15 members he aur bol te he ke Punjabi aur Pakistani nikle. Humay jana cha ye aur ye logh ek dusre ke tattay saaf kar sak te he sukhoon me.

Leave the website man. I am going to leave this website too. Apparently Punjabis are not welcome here, according to the Afghans. They can just debate with themselves.

Good suggestion, we should stop posting here in that case. I see there are many Afghans on defence.pk, even Shapur (nice guy) post there. But remember Iblis is still a kid and not to be taken seriously.

[Golden]

Rooh a.k.a RazPak/PakWatan,

To be honest I have to agree with you.

This guy, Iblis Efreetzai, drove all the females away from this forum, makes it clear non-Pashtuns are not welcome and is generally abusive and insulting, and a prolific liar.

[MENTION=2]Admin Khan[/MENTION]

Didn't they left partially because of your creepy posts?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

If non-Pashtuns join this forum in order to spread Iranian propaganda (like Bengali pussycat) or Punjabi propaganda (like Bannu and his Punjabi masters) then obviously they are not welcome.

Only sincere and respectful people are welcome here.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Another lie lol Only pro India party ANP didn't participate since they knew defeat was coming from mile away. FATA was not part of NFWP so they didn't have to vote, they decided on their own in Jirgas. The numbers of pashtuns in FATA don't count towards NWFP.

People in other independent states with in current day KP like Chitral, AMB, Dir, Swat and Phulra didn't vote either since their leaders decided to join Pakistan.

And BTW in democracy you vote or loss option of crying afterwards, but even then 51% participation is more then enough. And Afghanistan was never a option since they had sold NWFP to British 10 times before 1947. Knowing fully well British will eventually leave. 100% participation doesn't even happen even in modern developed countries.

Okay, if you are going to accuse me of lying, then at least provide the statistics of the referendum. How many people in NWFP were eligible to vote and how many of them have actually voted? Bring your evidence if you are truthful.

[Azmal]

LOL Well back then we used to be up against Omaer, Sid and Parsistani/Jahangir so we had to get some ammunition. LOL @ Killing a girl, I vaguely remember that scenario, that was hilarious. I sort of miss those days, I used to troll you guys on MSN Messenger and just write crazy stuff on purpose. I can't believe it's been like a whole decade. 1

Remember Tamim? That other Panjshiri guy in Holland?

Anyways this is probably the more accurate version of Morgenstierne; but if you notice Morgenstierne is presenting a speculation; it's even obvious from his language, he's being very conditional here. Pashto definitely has commonalities with Avestan, it's widely accepted that Pashto is related to Avestan, but we don't know if it's directly from Avestan or what. So we don't know when it came after Avestan. This is what I mean by lacking evidence before 1200-1000 years ago, whatever we can guess about Pashto is cloudy, we don't have strong evidence.

lol good old days...can't believe where the time had gone. I thought the guy Tamin was form Australia? In forum he was posting anti-pashtun bull****s and in msn messenger he reveled his great grandfather was Pashtun. lol



Linguistic divide the development of Iranian languages 3 stages.


Old Iranian languages

Avestian
Median
Old Persian
Middle Iranian languages ---4th century BCE- 9th century CE)
Parthian
Middle Persian
Eastern middle Iranian(Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri, Ossetia)

Modern
Baluchi
Pashto,
Ossetic
Farsi

Notice Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian languages.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

lol good old days...can't believe where the time had gone. I thought the guy Tamin was form Australia? In forum he was posting anti-pashtun bull****s and in msn messenger he reveled his great grandfather was Pashtun. lol



Linguistic divide the development of Iranian languages 3 stages.


Old Iranian languages

Avestian
Median
Old Persian
Middle Iranian languages ---4th century BCE- 9th century CE)
Parthian
Middle Persian
Eastern middle Iranian(Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri, Ossetia)

Modern
Baluchi
Pashto,
Ossetic
Farsi

Notice Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian languages.

Azmal,

You seem reasonably well versed in the history of the region. My concern regarding nationalism is that the same charge some make against those obsessed with a utopian view khilafaat-ul-rashidun era of Islam also ricochets back to the secular ultra nationalists.

Here is why: Many of us are raised on the view that after Ahmad Shah Baba created Afghanistanm everything was peaches and roses up to Shah Shuja ... and contrary to the real wording in the Tarikh - Elphinstone and others sort of created a fantasy Loya Jirga story that made it seem as if every clan and every Pashtun tribe came to the coronation of Ahmad Shah Abdali. The reality was it was a few Ghilzai chiefs and many Abdali confederation chiefs in the locale.

We forget how almost immediately Nur Mohmad Alizai and some others were summarily executed for intrigues they hatched against Ahmad Shah Baba.

This background above builds to my major point though. While I agree with you that Pakistan is bad for business in general, I also think the arguments underlying a unification movement are also non evidence based and are almost pseudo religious.

So take two of the most important tribes in the politics of the vale of Peshawar.... Khalil and Momand.

In the time of Timur Shah, Faizullah Khalil, Sado Momand, and a Chamkani tribal leader as well as Fateh Yusfuzai coordinated a rebellion and assassination attempt on Timur Shah. Tate documents this for posterity (even though he was a trouble maker he did do a service in writing down the events based on good sourcing)

To me this indicates that on a tribal level, this grouping in this particular region (Khalil, Momand, Yusufzai, Wazir, Mahsud, Afridi, etc) were not submissive and nationalistic to the point of comprising their own independence to some distant tribal confederacy if there was no gain for them. Quetta differs because Quetta is very close geographically to Qandahar and the same Pashtun tribes actually have huge portions of sub tribes across both sides of the border.

Another similar story was when the Khalil tribals were behind the other Ahmad Shah who was fighting the Sikhs and they kicked out the Sardars from Afghanistan who then ended up siding with the Sikhs (and even against Dost Mohammad unfortunately) and betraying warriors like Behram Khan Arbab etc.

So my point is that neo-nationalism (my term for this more recent late 20th century Pashtunistan movement) has some advantages in that if one starts from scratch and says to a group of people (Kurds, Pashtuns, African Americans, etc) - hey you have DNA in common and you have common struggles, benefit lies in hanging together instead of apart.

But I do think its a little bold to stake historical claim to Khalil, Yusufzai, and Momand lands based on this notion that these tribes and their leaders and people have all been apart of a Utopian, nationalistic love fest and that if a true referendum were held that they would all jump on board (or that even a sizable minority would). I just frankly don't see evidence to back that claim based on the history above unless you have added sources or pieces of info to offer up.

Or I will end with the example of Wazir on Kharot rivalry. Wana used to be in the hands of the Kharot tribe (this is oral history told to me so I have no text sources to back this up). Waziris took the land from the Kharotis and there were many bloody skirmishes and battles between them over this issue. How does one guarantee that an ascendant Afghan state power that also incorporates non Pashtun elements will not cause further internecine Pashtun bad blood and by some tribes once again taking the lands of other tribes. After all, these are not all historically adept people who have degrees in hand and speak Shakespearian English and negotiate. Many of these folks who I have cared for were good but rugged people who live in their locales for generations and their primary concern is A) survival and B) whatever enhances their survival. As a practical proof of this, are we not seeing this sort of horrible behavior in Kandahar where Nurzai not connected to the government have been severely abused in recent years by Achakzai and others? And mind you, the Achakzai are very embedded in secular nationalist movements ... so my point is that I don't think its as simple as: Nationalistic tendencies will win out the day... because Kurds and Pashtuns are not the same people with at all the same tendencies...

[Azmal]

Azmal,

You seem reasonably well versed in the history of the region. My concern regarding nationalism is that the same charge some make against those obsessed with a utopian view khilafaat-ul-rashidun era of Islam also ricochets back to the secular ultra nationalists.

Here is why: Many of us are raised on the view that after Ahmad Shah Baba created Afghanistanm everything was peaches and roses up to Shah Shuja ... and contrary to the real wording in the Tarikh - Elphinstone and others sort of created a fantasy Loya Jirga story that made it seem as if every clan and every Pashtun tribe came to the coronation of Ahmad Shah Abdali. The reality was it was a few Ghilzai chiefs and many Abdali confederation chiefs in the locale.

We forget how almost immediately Nur Mohmad Alizai and some others were summarily executed for intrigues they hatched against Ahmad Shah Baba.

This background above builds to my major point though. While I agree with you that Pakistan is bad for business in general, I also think the arguments underlying a unification movement are also non evidence based and are almost pseudo religious.

So take two of the most important tribes in the politics of the vale of Peshawar.... Khalil and Momand.

In the time of Timur Shah, Faizullah Khalil, Sado Momand, and a Chamkani tribal leader as well as Fateh Yusfuzai coordinated a rebellion and assassination attempt on Timur Shah. Tate documents this for posterity (even though he was a trouble maker he did do a service in writing down the events based on good sourcing)

To me this indicates that on a tribal level, this grouping in this particular region (Khalil, Momand, Yusufzai, Wazir, Mahsud, Afridi, etc) were not submissive and nationalistic to the point of comprising their own independence to some distant tribal confederacy if there was no gain for them. Quetta differs because Quetta is very close geographically to Qandahar and the same Pashtun tribes actually have huge portions of sub tribes across both sides of the border.

Another similar story was when the Khalil tribals were behind the other Ahmad Shah who was fighting the Sikhs and they kicked out the Sardars from Afghanistan who then ended up siding with the Sikhs (and even against Dost Mohammad unfortunately) and betraying warriors like Behram Khan Arbab etc.

So my point is that neo-nationalism (my term for this more recent late 20th century Pashtunistan movement) has some advantages in that if one starts from scratch and says to a group of people (Kurds, Pashtuns, African Americans, etc) - hey you have DNA in common and you have common struggles, benefit lies in hanging together instead of apart.

But I do think its a little bold to stake historical claim to Khalil, Yusufzai, and Momand lands based on this notion that these tribes and their leaders and people have all been apart of a Utopian, nationalistic love fest and that if a true referendum were held that they would all jump on board (or that even a sizable minority would). I just frankly don't see evidence to back that claim based on the history above unless you have added sources or pieces of info to offer up.

Or I will end with the example of Wazir on Kharot rivalry. Wana used to be in the hands of the Kharot tribe (this is oral history told to me so I have no text sources to back this up). Waziris took the land from the Kharotis and there were many bloody skirmishes and battles between them over this issue. How does one guarantee that an ascendant Afghan state power that also incorporates non Pashtun elements will not cause further internecine Pashtun bad blood and by some tribes once again taking the lands of other tribes. After all, these are not all historically adept people who have degrees in hand and speak Shakespearian English and negotiate. Many of these folks who I have cared for were good but rugged people who live in their locales for generations and their primary concern is A) survival and B) whatever enhances their survival. As a practical proof of this, are we not seeing this sort of horrible behavior in Kandahar where Nurzai not connected to the government have been severely abused in recent years by Achakzai and others? And mind you, the Achakzai are very embedded in secular nationalist movements ... so my point is that I don't think its as simple as: Nationalistic tendencies will win out the day... because Kurds and Pashtuns are not the same people with at all the same tendencies...

Historically of three Pashtun tribes Durrani, Ghilzay and the eastern Pashtuns only the first two had evolved political institutions. The eastern tribes have always been attached to their customs and jealous of their independence and have never produced a political confederation. At same time for past 500 years the eastern tribes were thrown into turmoil by great millenarian movements led by charismatic leaders. Yet none of these have achieved anything of value be it the Rushaniyaa movement of Pir Rokhan ( Mughal Emperor Akbar—the founder of Din-i Ilahi counter by utilizing orthodox religious sentiment of Pashtuns against him and called him heretical….amazing how history repeat itself the same religiousless Punjbian are using religious against Afghanistan.) The struggle of Khushal Khan Khattak against the Mughals, the uprising of Faqir of Ipi in North Waziristan, Bacha Khan and Abdul Samad Khan Achakzai’s non-violent movements against British Raj so on and so forth.

In my opinion the reason for the failure is due to their Pashtun Nationalism of eastern Pashtuns is more a reactionary as oppose to revolutionary…while the former calls for a return to national past, and sometimes for the expulsion of foreigners, the latter call for the establishment of an independent state as a homeland for an ethnic underclass…to over simplify more…there is also tribal fault lines. In term of social structure we Pashtuns are identical to Arabs…both tribal people with intra-tribal enmity and jealousy …this doesn’t mean we lack nationalism or self-identification as one people. Tribal mentality and lack of trust of Arabs by Arab rulers were the reason Turks were brought in by Arab rulers to serve them, yet Turks end up being the new rulers, at first exercising influences form behind the throne and later ruling from it directly. The same tribal rivalry was reason the Afghanistan’s capital was moved to Kabul—which has resulted in Pashtun in capital losing their native language.


There is no question of Ahmad Shah baba massive personal popularity among Pashtuns now days regardless of tribes at same time romanticizing history and adulation of Ahmad Shah Baba by nationalist Pashtuns --whom forefather might otherwise have been only marginally committed to unification of Afghan as people under Durrani lordship. This is how the world works…need a past leader to rely on…propagating and overstressing. I don’t know if you might remember the false propaganda by Pakistan and Islamist groups about communists, or socialist that they have no family values nor they understand the relationship between Brother and sister, and they make people Kaffir, and a lot more. Or recently how Pakistan media is busy trying to portray all those fighting against Pakistani state as Indian, showing uncircumcised death bodies and Indian currency as prove. The point is that each group produced provocation among the masses for their own agenda and frankly it is not as inhuman as brainwashing little kids into suicide bombers.

If you ask me personally, greatest blunder of Ahmad shah baba was his willfulness to abandon the crown of Delhi and remained confined to Pashtunkwha sun backed mountains only with Kashmir and Punjab keeping as Afghan's colonies---even those were lost in less than century. Ahmad Shah Baba legacy did not stopped the loot and plunder of our land…the game still remain the same only the Mughuls are replaced first by British and now by Punjabian and the Saffavid by Wolat e Faqi.




As for as Pakistan, it is not simply bad for business…from Pashtuns perspective it is a total disaster! After all, who are Pakis elite if none other than the same servants of Mughal India who aroused the irony and the suffering that weighed heavily on Khushal Khan Khattak’s heart. Is the Pakistani establishment not the same mercenaries of the British Raj engaged in violence and betrayal against their own? Did they not serve Colonial Britain to the end, with their reward having been the wholesale theft of other people’s lands? Are they not responsible for dividing tribes and families apart whilst keeping them that way through means that both foster and maintain a state of ignorance and moral depravity in both south and central Asia? I think the reason for the Islamism enterprise in Pakistan owes itself to the fact that in the absence of any national coherence, political Islam has been the ONLY means at the government's disposal for keeping their synthetic nation glued together. Hence the underlying reason for Pakistan's support of extremist movements in Afghanistan and Kashmir---which has absolutely nothing to do with religion or any pretense to moral virtue. Similarly the Pakistani power elite believe in the Muslim brotherhood only as far as Muslims of Pakistan are concerned as it is important to retain this notion for them to remain in power. The power elite use the same ideology when it comes to infiltrating and indoctrinating Afghans….when it comes to the interests of military power elite mainly composed of Punjabis they do not care if those who lose their lives as a result of power elite's anti Afghan conspiracies are much more pious Muslims, children or women.
I think you are reasonably well versed and informed about politics of our people…although you have more of a religion inclination (not a judgement just my observation) do you mind to share your opinion for following question that has come to my mind.


Do you think the Taliban in the current shape led by the Mullah Hibatullah and Sirajuddin Haqqani type of characters on the west of Durand, using the policies that they are pursuing and the things they are doing; are qualified to / are capable of achieving emancipation of the Pashtuns?


Do you believe it is their little diluted form east of Durand - the likes of Fazlurehman, Imran and Siraj & Co who paradoxically are Talibans brethren but yet a different brand (working for the strengthening of the Urdu and Pakistan); who can get us out of the mess?

I admit our pathetic state in Afghanistan and Pakhtunkhwa is not because of Taliban…The seeds of this decay have been present decades if not for centuries ago. In our struggle to improve our lot we have stumbled deeper into the abyss. By tolerating the lowest possible conditions for survival we were able to scare the British and the Russians, for them such squalor was not worth dying for. But now even that tactic is no longer viable. For the enemy has sunk to new lows. To them any breath of human aspiration is a sin, worth stoning. They thrive in the putrid decay of our flesh, for what scarred our previous enemies have now become our own enemy. I also admit we had always gathered strength in Islam to fight our enemies and to gather resources when it was our turn to rape and pillage. We raided the helpless plain Indians, replaced the native tribes of pakhtunkhwa, and killed the infidels to grasp what belonged to them. We gathered forces and forged unity under Pashtunwali and Islam. When the pillaging stopped as the plain Indians became a bigger force with better fortification their new master’s waged revenge and we were able to thwart them away with the same laws of Pashtunwali and Islam. The British lost their appetite for war and the Russians later theirs. Instead of seizing the moment we let ourselves become entangled by new masters from Punjab, this time sharing and using our own methods. We resisted their initial attempts by suppressing us just by Islam. The first Islamic invasion from the east came in the form of the Qadiani-version, but this Punjabi version of Islam did not get major inroads in Pashtunkhwa let alone in Afghanistan, some subjugation did take place, the intended effect did not happen. The second wave got a lot bigger footing, many a Pashtuns saw it as their calling and are to this day ardent followers. This salafi Islam is nothing more than inroads to disrupt and destroy Pashtun identity which it has done quite effectively, but not completely. The third lethal version of this invasion is was the Taliban. For it has incorporated the raiwand - Punjabi - salafi - Islam with Pashtunwali--- a total attack at the heart of our ethos. The latest wave is the ISIL in eastern Afghanistan…now if we fight this malice we become something we haven’t been in over a few hundred years. For we shunned modernity and religious reform as traits of our enemies, it helped us survive, albeit at tremendous costs but we survived. But now the ballgame is different. In either scenario, whether we win or lose this battle, we will have to change. Change to become a Punjabi vassal, a raiwand based- salafi Muslim living in the 10th century. Or change to become a modern human being with our culture based on modern human rights, science, technology, wealth generation and preservation of our habitat. In both cases the choice has been made easier for us. Our ancient pashtunwali is dead. It cannot be resurrected. The choice now is whether we want to live with honor and dignity in this world or wait for what the mullahs promise next world.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Thanks for the long response. I will try to segment it and respond a bit by bit.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Historically of three Pashtun tribes Durrani, Ghilzay and the eastern Pashtuns only the first two had evolved political institutions. The eastern tribes have always been attached to their customs and jealous of their independence and have never produced a political confederation. At same time for past 500 years the eastern tribes were thrown into turmoil by great millenarian movements led by charismatic leaders. Yet none of these have achieved anything of value be it the Rushaniyaa movement of Pir Rokhan ( Mughal Emperor Akbar—the founder of Din-i Ilahi counter by utilizing orthodox religious sentiment of Pashtuns against him and called him heretical….amazing how history repeat itself the same religiousless Punjbian are using religious against Afghanistan.) The struggle of Khushal Khan Khattak against the Mughals, the uprising of Faqir of Ipi in North Waziristan, Bacha Khan and Abdul Samad Khan Achakzai’s non-violent movements against British Raj so on and so forth.

So this is always the central problem or issue though right? A confederacy is one way to integrate and guarantee freedom. Its a spectrum across the world, where you see cohesiveness and individual liberty caught in a tug of war.

Even within those tribes you mention - are we sure that political stability came cheap? I think the end of Shah Zamaan and the murder of Painda Khan, as well as the near collapse of the confederacy support when Timur Shah came to power and how he had to rely on foreign gaurds are practical examples of how no true political unity existed but circumstance moved things backward and forward. Regarding Ghilzai, Nadir Shah was not yet in Kandahar, some Ghilzai tribes attempted to eradicate whole other clans (even after Mir Wais neka gave them local supremacy). There was a subsection of Ghilzai that actually joined Nadir Shah before he invaded Kandahar to exact revenge on the other Ghilzai clan. And then if political stability did not come cheap, are we really justified historically claiming that besides maybe Haji Jamal stepping aside that there were not also a number mixed incentives and goals that centered not at all on some sort of advanced political system but rather on family and individual gain?

Some of this concept that somehow the Eastern tribes did not provide at least a loose confederacy loses sight of the fact that occasionally, some people are just in the right place at the right time. That is my personal view on the rise of the Durrani confederacy.

It just happened to be that Ahmad Shah was trained by Sunni Nadir Shah after being freed by him (remember he was also imprisoned by Ghilzai). It was also coincident with the opportune moment of both weak inept Safavid leadership having been destroyed on the one side and Mughal corruption and ineptness also leading to the teetering of that empire. And the Marathas and Sikhs were beginning to become a real threat that could galvanize Muslim sentiment that an astute leader could capitalize on.

Perhaps it was more that Khushal Baba was a 100 years or so early on the scene.

So the point of all of this is that I disagree, respectfully, with your contention that it is Eastern individualism vs Western Political development...

Rather I would say regionally the tribes and the peoples are distinct and this can even be empirically proven with the dialect development. In my opinion, as a non linguist, dialects that are as unique as the Pashto ones are do not develop overnight. As you and me see when we compare even local American dialects - these developments take time. But this in a way reflects crystallized regionalism.

Additionally, the Mughals made aggressive incursions into the KP area and the Sunni regionality made it so that some folks (even like Khushal Baba) did not perhaps see an immediate need to eject them for this reason if it benefited them.

BUT, with Mir Wais history on the other side of the Pashto nation, Safavid were Shia and direct occupation caused a quicker "allergic response" and it took one generation and a Meccan fatwa to oust them.

So these are the nuances we have to consider about the East vs West political gradient.

More importantly, these are the nuances that remain ground level realities and differences in local texture, flavor, and politics relative to views on adjacent peoples.

Without recognizing these important reasons and just blanket labeling these events as "nationalism" or even "religious movements" we risk losing sight of truly distilling to the knowledge of what

A) Will get everyone on board in a practical sense
B) What factors can be altered to re-create or reinstigate the sorts of events that led to the rise of an Ahmad Shah

The tragedy of this then is that we would just be experimenting on our people as opposed to recognizing their realities.

I will end on the fact that it seemed coincidentally the most peaceful time in general on both sides of the border and associated development was in Nadir Shah/Zahir Shah era because there was a slow driven process to centralization and the local cultures, customs, and realities of the tribes as not trampled on. This was perhaps not best time for progression of Pashto as a written language, but it at least permitted that all important conveyer belt that exists in every stable autonomous society between peripheral rural regions and central urban regions resulting in exchanges of ideas. Young men would come to urban centers of learning and return to their villages with some greater sense of a nation and a world beyond their locale.

However, unfortunately, war respects no one and nothing and these gains were burned away.

I tend not to blame our people for who and what they are. I think that every society has a mix of inherently progressive and inherently retrogressive peoples that co-exist in times of peace and gradualism moves the needle one way or another.

However, leadership regionally (not just our people) and locally toyed around with ideas and ideologies that they thought were panaceas. These ideas in turn made our region susceptible to becoming the football field and dueling ground between empires.

What resulted is what I think happens pretty much anywhere where you impose massive devastation on a society. Heck, we even see this in places like Syria and Iraq at an accelerated pace.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Historically of three Pashtun tribes Durrani, Ghilzay and the eastern Pashtuns only the first two had evolved political institutions. The eastern tribes have always been attached to their customs and jealous of their independence and have never produced a political confederation. At same time for past 500 years the eastern tribes were thrown into turmoil by great millenarian movements led by charismatic leaders. Yet none of these have achieved anything of value be it the Rushaniyaa movement of Pir Rokhan ( Mughal Emperor Akbar—the founder of Din-i Ilahi counter by utilizing orthodox religious sentiment of Pashtuns against him and called him heretical….amazing how history repeat itself the same religiousless Punjbian are using religious against Afghanistan.) The struggle of Khushal Khan Khattak against the Mughals, the uprising of Faqir of Ipi in North Waziristan, Bacha Khan and Abdul Samad Khan Achakzai’s non-violent movements against British Raj so on and so forth.

In my opinion the reason for the failure is due to their Pashtun Nationalism of eastern Pashtuns is more a reactionary as oppose to revolutionary…while the former calls for a return to national past, and sometimes for the expulsion of foreigners, the latter call for the establishment of an independent state as a homeland for an ethnic underclass…to over simplify more…there is also tribal fault lines. In term of social structure we Pashtuns are identical to Arabs…both tribal people with intra-tribal enmity and jealousy …this doesn’t mean we lack nationalism or self-identification as one people. Tribal mentality and lack of trust of Arabs by Arab rulers were the reason Turks were brought in by Arab rulers to serve them, yet Turks end up being the new rulers, at first exercising influences form behind the throne and later ruling from it directly. The same tribal rivalry was reason the Afghanistan’s capital was moved to Kabul—which has resulted in Pashtun in capital losing their native language.


There is no question of Ahmad Shah baba massive personal popularity among Pashtuns now days regardless of tribes at same time romanticizing history and adulation of Ahmad Shah Baba by nationalist Pashtuns --whom forefather might otherwise have been only marginally committed to unification of Afghan as people under Durrani lordship. This is how the world works…need a past leader to rely on…propagating and overstressing. I don’t know if you might remember the false propaganda by Pakistan and Islamist groups about communists, or socialist that they have no family values nor they understand the relationship between Brother and sister, and they make people Kaffir, and a lot more. Or recently how Pakistan media is busy trying to portray all those fighting against Pakistani state as Indian, showing uncircumcised death bodies and Indian currency as prove. The point is that each group produced provocation among the masses for their own agenda and frankly it is not as inhuman as brainwashing little kids into suicide bombers.

If you ask me personally, greatest blunder of Ahmad shah baba was his willfulness to abandon the crown of Delhi and remained confined to Pashtunkwha sun backed mountains only with Kashmir and Punjab keeping as Afghan's colonies---even those were lost in less than century. Ahmad Shah Baba legacy did not stopped the loot and plunder of our land…the game still remain the same only the Mughuls are replaced first by British and now by Punjabian and the Saffavid by Wolat e Faqi.




As for as Pakistan, it is not simply bad for business…from Pashtuns perspective it is a total disaster! After all, who are Pakis elite if none other than the same servants of Mughal India who aroused the irony and the suffering that weighed heavily on Khushal Khan Khattak’s heart. Is the Pakistani establishment not the same mercenaries of the British Raj engaged in violence and betrayal against their own? Did they not serve Colonial Britain to the end, with their reward having been the wholesale theft of other people’s lands? Are they not responsible for dividing tribes and families apart whilst keeping them that way through means that both foster and maintain a state of ignorance and moral depravity in both south and central Asia? I think the reason for the Islamism enterprise in Pakistan owes itself to the fact that in the absence of any national coherence, political Islam has been the ONLY means at the government's disposal for keeping their synthetic nation glued together. Hence the underlying reason for Pakistan's support of extremist movements in Afghanistan and Kashmir---which has absolutely nothing to do with religion or any pretense to moral virtue. Similarly the Pakistani power elite believe in the Muslim brotherhood only as far as Muslims of Pakistan are concerned as it is important to retain this notion for them to remain in power. The power elite use the same ideology when it comes to infiltrating and indoctrinating Afghans….when it comes to the interests of military power elite mainly composed of Punjabis they do not care if those who lose their lives as a result of power elite's anti Afghan conspiracies are much more pious Muslims, children or women.
I think you are reasonably well versed and informed about politics of our people…although you have more of a religion inclination (not a judgement just my observation) do you mind to share your opinion for following question that has come to my mind.


Do you think the Taliban in the current shape led by the Mullah Hibatullah and Sirajuddin Haqqani type of characters on the west of Durand, using the policies that they are pursuing and the things they are doing; are qualified to / are capable of achieving emancipation of the Pashtuns?


Do you believe it is their little diluted form east of Durand - the likes of Fazlurehman, Imran and Siraj & Co who paradoxically are Talibans brethren but yet a different brand (working for the strengthening of the Urdu and Pakistan); who can get us out of the mess?

I admit our pathetic state in Afghanistan and Pakhtunkhwa is not because of Taliban…The seeds of this decay have been present decades if not for centuries ago. In our struggle to improve our lot we have stumbled deeper into the abyss. By tolerating the lowest possible conditions for survival we were able to scare the British and the Russians, for them such squalor was not worth dying for. But now even that tactic is no longer viable. For the enemy has sunk to new lows. To them any breath of human aspiration is a sin, worth stoning. They thrive in the putrid decay of our flesh, for what scarred our previous enemies have now become our own enemy. I also admit we had always gathered strength in Islam to fight our enemies and to gather resources when it was our turn to rape and pillage. We raided the helpless plain Indians, replaced the native tribes of pakhtunkhwa, and killed the infidels to grasp what belonged to them. We gathered forces and forged unity under Pashtunwali and Islam. When the pillaging stopped as the plain Indians became a bigger force with better fortification their new master’s waged revenge and we were able to thwart them away with the same laws of Pashtunwali and Islam. The British lost their appetite for war and the Russians later theirs. Instead of seizing the moment we let ourselves become entangled by new masters from Punjab, this time sharing and using our own methods. We resisted their initial attempts by suppressing us just by Islam. The first Islamic invasion from the east came in the form of the Qadiani-version, but this Punjabi version of Islam did not get major inroads in Pashtunkhwa let alone in Afghanistan, some subjugation did take place, the intended effect did not happen. The second wave got a lot bigger footing, many a Pashtuns saw it as their calling and are to this day ardent followers. This salafi Islam is nothing more than inroads to disrupt and destroy Pashtun identity which it has done quite effectively, but not completely. The third lethal version of this invasion is was the Taliban. For it has incorporated the raiwand - Punjabi - salafi - Islam with Pashtunwali--- a total attack at the heart of our ethos. The latest wave is the ISIL in eastern Afghanistan…now if we fight this malice we become something we haven’t been in over a few hundred years. For we shunned modernity and religious reform as traits of our enemies, it helped us survive, albeit at tremendous costs but we survived. But now the ballgame is different. In either scenario, whether we win or lose this battle, we will have to change. Change to become a Punjabi vassal, a raiwand based- salafi Muslim living in the 10th century. Or change to become a modern human being with our culture based on modern human rights, science, technology, wealth generation and preservation of our habitat. In both cases the choice has been made easier for us. Our ancient pashtunwali is dead. It cannot be resurrected. The choice now is whether we want to live with honor and dignity in this world or wait for what the mullahs promise next world.

In my opinion the reason for the failure is due to their Pashtun Nationalism of eastern Pashtuns is more a reactionary as oppose to revolutionary…while the former calls for a return to national past, and sometimes for the expulsion of foreigners, the latter call for the establishment of an independent state as a homeland for an ethnic underclass…to over simplify more…there is also tribal fault lines. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In term of social structure we Pashtuns are identical to Arabs…both tribal people with intra-tribal enmity and jealousy …this doesn’t mean we lack nationalism or self-identification as one people. Tribal mentality and lack of trust of Arabs by Arab rulers were the reason Turks were brought in by Arab rulers to serve them, yet Turks end up being the new rulers, at first exercising influences form behind the throne and later ruling from it directly. The same tribal rivalry was reason the Afghanistan’s capital was moved to Kabul—which has resulted in Pashtun in capital losing their native language.

Regarding the two bolded parts which I think are the most important parts:
Per my other response above, I would say that Ahmad Shah left behind poetry where he explicity states he views Ghilzai and Abdali (he writes Awdali) as the same and seems to inculcate a higher level of thinking toward building a proto-state.

And just like Alexander's case vs his generals, this can unfortunately be the way life works - one visionary leader strikes while the iron is hot is surrounded by others who cannot fully grasp his vision - I would say that the Barakzai vs Sadozai; internal Ghilzai problems are in line with "my tribe, my benefit, my family."

I also agree that there is a sense and a knowledge, even in older times that we are one grouping - but that has not translated into anything beyond the setup that was there in ancient Scotland and ancient Ireland where tribes may have been one ethnic group but they served their own closest genetic or local interests.

One proof of this I can provide is land ownership. Badi fights can happen over simply not giving right of first refusal to a relative... going from one region to another and trying to randomly buy land results in a local asking "where is your adeerah?" ---> "where are your people buried?"

I would agree with the Arab comparison to an extent. If we are to capitalize on this example though, I refer you to the solution of the division between Aws, Khazraj tribes of Medina. These were the tribes that inhabited that region before the Prophetic migration. He managed to sew up the enmity of the tribe with a religious philosophy that did not completely trample on their innate tribal needs.

And once again historically the Ummayad Abbasid back and forth and inter tribal relationship and intrigues do to an extent mirror the Mohammadzai-Sadozai ones and the unfortunate cyclical progression that occurs from:
Monarchy --> expansion --> decadence --> collapse ---> Loss of autonomy.

Moreover, if we recognize that other tribal peoples faced similar disputes and issues to ourselves then we would have to conclude that these are human design problems that we should be very careful to not provoke until we really feel like there is a grasp on the situation and that its been thought through.

I would just say that all of us, religious, secular, nationalist etc requires what is very difficult - introspection on the challenges in applying ideologies that seek to perfect man to an imperfect human condition. Notice that I group nationalism now and secular humanism with religion because I think that these aforementioned issues that escape the attention of the proponents of these systems are ignored at their own peril. If a person comes along with a semi religious belief, some of it partially fueled by Elphinstone's inaccurate retelling of our history, that the greater mass of our people are somehow not acting to a script that could improve their lives if they only did x, y, and z this borders on asking them to overcome certain ingrained and perhaps survivalist behaviors (this then borders on quasi religious belief). The obvious response is: well one results in segments of society behind left behind (minorities etc) and severe punishments etc and that the other is somehow less dangerous. I would counter that this is not so and that we see how the attempt to inflict these ideas or radical variants of them has also hurt the populace severely with the rejoinder from the implementing side when the outcome is bad that: well, it just was not done right, or well if the people just knew that their history, etc. To me this mirrors a quasi religious mindset but is also as dangerous if not more since the folks willing to back these ideologies are often modern day empires from abroad (not even regional) who are more than willing to utilize any "ism" for their gain often at the expense of the natives.

We can get more into this discussion of religiosity and what not and its role as I move down in answering your post.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Notice Pashto, Yaqobi, Pamiri and rest of Eastern Iranian languages are successor of Avestian languages.

But notice it says nothing about how or when these languages came into use. It also doesn't acknowledge any intermediary languages. Since there's no direct evidence, we're only going by speculation here. We should focus on the evidence we have. If we later find evidence that pashto is 2000 years old then we can modify it, but we can't just go by speculation.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

There is no question of Ahmad Shah baba massive personal popularity among Pashtuns now days regardless of tribes at same time romanticizing history and adulation of Ahmad Shah Baba by nationalist Pashtuns --whom forefather might otherwise have been only marginally committed to unification of Afghan as people under Durrani lordship. This is how the world works…need a past leader to rely on…propagating and overstressing. I don’t know if you might remember the false propaganda by Pakistan and Islamist groups about communists, or socialist that they have no family values nor they understand the relationship between Brother and sister, and they make people Kaffir, and a lot more. Or recently how Pakistan media is busy trying to portray all those fighting against Pakistani state as Indian, showing uncircumcised death bodies and Indian currency as prove. The point is that each group produced provocation among the masses for their own agenda and frankly it is not as inhuman as brainwashing little kids into suicide bombers.

The two bold parts are the most interesting. In general I think your point is that movements rely on some eulogizing and mythologizing as a motivation of the common man.

Our concern though, yours and mine, in my opinion should be to use our education to operate as close to an evidence based paradigm as possible. My reasoning boils down to that although movements are reliant on these sorts of tactics - their failures also derive from this approach.

There are good examples of folks who ascribed to Marxism but were truly practicing Muslims. An excellent detailed story of an Achakzai man who went for the hajj etc and was a Marxist is given in Gopal's No Good Man Left Among the Living.

However, there are many examples (e.g. Mohammad Taqi) of folks of a minority status (in his case Shiite) who view any element of Sunni ascendancy as a threat to their subgroup. Farhat Taj Andersen might be another example per her sampling and polling being heavily in Parachinar.

Why does this matter? It matters because using these political vehicles to subvert the will of the majority and invite kharij forces to do the dirty work (e.g. Alawite ascendancy in Syria) only inculcates festering anger and radicalizes a population. True egalitarian polity emerges in the context of an autonomous nation that is stable for generations without these sorts of intrigues going on that cause the majority to have to take up arms and become refugees from their own lands.

And once again, if we look at things historically, we see confederate American soldiers in their pre-teen years and in situations of disparate odds we find these sorts of assymetric tactics are responses not instigators of unrest. Are Abdul Hai Kakar and Zia Yusufzai, who colluded under the auspices of AIRRA before the Gul Makai diaries emerged also not inserting a child or children into their struggles?

However, certainly Islamic jurisprudence that I have read advocates against the use of child soldiers. But once again, like the studies repeatedly show, these movements with idealistic outcomes in mind (like Latin American Marxism or Political Islamism) are not guided by Islamic jurisprudence or incorporating armies of Islamic jurists ... they are unifying and rallying ideologies for a population to mount militant resistance to either invaders or local strong men backed by outsiders.

So rather I would say that justice and its principles behooves us to examine cause and effect and not willy nilly assign blame without mapping out who started a conflicted, who funded, who prolongs it, and then to get into the nitty gritty of the local mullah who recruits some 11 year old. My logic and reasoning here is that whether its the Tamil regions, Latin American states, or anywhere else, human beings appear to behave in predictable ways (which is why we also see child soldier recruitment in Africa in the Bush). We need to examine what initiated these conflicts and assign the biggest blame there first and then so on and so forth.

Why do I feel this way? Because I feel that Sepsis demands goal directed therapies. If you give the septic body Tylenol and attack the fever (which is the most notable thing initially to the uninformed observer) you are not treating the instigator and underlying promoter that will actually KILL the body. Not only that. but you will make the situation worse because fever within a range is an expected response to the septic trigger. Should you mask the fever soon you will have a hypotensive dying patient on your hands. You gotta give antibiotics early to treat the bacteria that triggered the body's septic and concerning responses.

The same applies to human interactions... the fever in this case is the wretched condition of groups that feel that they have been slighted or their autonomy or right to dictate their own destiny threatened. If these groups have equal technology to answer the enemy they will likely observe certain laws of war and honor (low grade fever)... the more you exacerbate their condition the greater the likelihood that they will, as Malcolm X said, resort to any means necessary (across the globe across religions across tribes etc).

Our job is to be as honest as possible. And to be frank, this cause and effect applies to Muslims as well. The rise of Hinduvta, Modi and Indian nationalism is because the original invasions of the subcontinent were not done by divine angels looking to secure the Muslim realm and free the untouchables or some oppressed. In many instances they were done as raids of conquest and subjugation. One might say that compared to the Korean Christian situation or Crusader conquered Jerusalem the conqueror was more egalitarian.... but the invaded will never look at things this way and the historical memory will always be imprinted with the sense of being wronged. That being said, despite the argument by Indian Nationalists, the proof Chandhra Gupta Maurya and Asoka's invasions into other lands as well as subsequent Sikh and Maratha invasions toward Torkham show that the Indians were no saints either. But my point still stands - this was not the Prophetic example of Muhammad (S) riding low on his Camel and taking Mecca in a bloodless fashion after creating the appropriate political will. Nadir Qoli Beg etc made no qualms about going full force when he wanted to.