Pakistani Pashtuns burning Afghanistan´s flag

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Firdousi, you do kind of flip flop between making passive aggressive assaults against Pashtuns, like even in threads not even directly related to it, then you're trying to instigate divisions between Pashtuns saying things like "see they hate you"

who hate us? 4 or 5 grungy, pot bellied guys in Peshawar? Since when were they the chosen representatives of Pashtuns beyond the Durand Line.I don't mind you bringing this to our attention, but based on the way you handled and spun the information, I cannot conclude anything else other than your intention here was more to stir animosity. The truth is the landscape of attitudes among Pakistani Pashtuns is very complex.

Indeed Hazaras, Tajiks and everyone other ethnicity in Afghanistan are our brothers, but there's no doubt that there are Individuals among Tajiks and Hazaras who want to abolish Afghanistan and would probably burn the Flag if they could get away with doing so without repercussions. Those are probably a very small number of people. What this video shows us is that a rag tag bunch of self appointed rabble rousers acting on their own accord, with barely anyone joining in to support them.

In short; Pashtuns or Pakistan are just as much our brothers as Tajiks of Afghanistan, regardless of the few who hold spite for us among either group.

[Firdousi]

Firdousi, you do kind of flip flop between making passive aggressive assaults against Pashtuns, like even in threads not even directly related to it, then you're trying to instigate divisions between Pashtuns saying things like "see they hate you"

who hate us? 4 or 5 grungy, pot bellied guys in Peshawar? Since when were they the chosen representatives of Pashtuns beyond the Durand Line.I don't mind you bringing this to our attention, but based on the way you handled and spun the information, I cannot conclude anything else other than your intention here was more to stir animosity. The truth is the landscape of attitudes among Pakistani Pashtuns is very complex.

Indeed Hazaras, Tajiks and everyone other ethnicity in Afghanistan are our brothers, but there's no doubt that there are Individuals among Tajiks and Hazaras who want to abolish Afghanistan and would probably burn the Flag if they could get away with doing so without repercussions. Those are probably a very small number of people. What this video shows us is that a rag tag bunch of self appointed rabble rousers acting on their own accord, with barely anyone joining in to support them.

In short; Pashtuns or Pakistan are just as much our brothers as Tajiks of Afghanistan, regardless of the few who hold spite for us among either group.

They might be your brothers.. just like Punjabis, Indians, Arabs or Turks. After all human beings belong to one family. But they are not your countrymen nor they seems willing to leave Pakistan and join Afghanistan. Afghan Pashtuns (many of them) support Loy Afghanistan. Pathans don't seems to care.

I don't need to instigate division between Pashtuns. Pashtuns are already a divided nation thats why they praise so much Baba Abdali Multani: he was the only one able to bring all of them together.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize that I am against Pashtun unity. I have said always that Pashtunism is a threat to all of us. Pashtuns included. So its my duty as a fellow Afghan, Muslim and Human Being to fight against a cancer that is harming us. Our region without Pashtun warmongerism would be much better place no doubt about this. We need to achieve this goal no matter the cost.

[Manzareh]

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize that I am against Pashtun unity. I have said always that Pashtunism is a threat to all of us. Pashtuns included. So its my duty as a fellow Afghan, Muslim and Human Being to fight against a cancer that is harming us. Our region without Pashtun warmongerism would be much better place no doubt about this. We need to achieve this goal no matter the cost.

So why should we allow you to be here?

[Azmal]

So why should we allow you to be here?

Exactly my point...he could not even sugarcoated anymore...the purpose of this forum is to bring Pashtun together and yet he is against the core purpose...why is he still allow here---mod/admin need to answer.

[Porus]

Pashtuns are linked by language and tribes, however 'Loy Afghanistan' is just a farce. It's never going to happen nor should people desire it.

[Porus]

I'd say atleast 10% of the population that know the basics of their history would proudly label themselves an afghan. So go figure.

It's pretty weird then how I as a liberal Pakistani-Punjabi, from the most liberal circles have only met a handful of Pashtuns who are adamant in claiming they are Afghans. It's worth mentioning that if you look at any of my previous posts, or know anything about what I post, I don't have any hostile feelings towards the narrative that Afghan and Pashtun means the same thing.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I don't think Firdousi is a bad person, but I do think he harbors a lot of enmity with Pashtuns, I do think we can learn a lot from him since he represents a perspective of people who encounter Pashtuns from the outside while at the same time he's a fellow countryman of Afghanistan. At the same time he doesn't offer a balanced attitude, and with his more recent posts, this one especially he's coming off more like a demagogue than a reasonable critic.

I don't think he should be banned, Pashtuns should just become more intellectually savvy with how we deal with detractors and at the same time self reproaching and examine our internal shortcomings in our society, while retaining the positive aspects. We should examine our history honestly rather than through ideologues. I don't believe Loy Afghanistan, at least at this time is a feasible or a worthwhile prospect. What is however is strengthening our cultural and social ties with our kin in Pakistan. One way we can do that is develop better political and social relationships with our neighbors and demand that our neighbors respect our sovereignty, while we respect theirs.

Incendiary vitriol and rhetoric rarely sets the stage for good relations. We can be critical about Pakistani Policies without having to call for the destruction of Pakistan or claim we're trying to split it up. Pakistan can advance and secure its interests, without supporting terrorism and trying to manipulate the politics of its neighbors. It can support good relations with Afghanistan and India and abandon its military policies. Tajiks and Minority groups can deal with issues of marginalization by Pashtun-centrists without having to undermine Pashtuns as a whole. Pashtuns can be strong cultural fabric and community without having to marginalize other ethnic groups.

[Firdousi]

I don't think Firdousi is a bad person, but I do think he harbors a lot of enmity with Pashtuns, I do think we can learn a lot from him since he represents a perspective of people who encounter Pashtuns from the outside while at the same time he's a fellow countryman of Afghanistan. At the same time he doesn't offer a balanced attitude, and with his more recent posts, this one especially he's coming off more like a demagogue than a reasonable critic.

I don't think he should be banned, Pashtuns should just become more intellectually savvy with how we deal with detractors and at the same time self reproaching and examine our internal shortcomings in our society, while retaining the positive aspects. We should examine our history honestly rather than through ideologues. I don't believe Loy Afghanistan, at least at this time is a feasible or a worthwhile prospect. What is however is strengthening our cultural and social ties with our kin in Pakistan. One way we can do that is develop better political and social relationships with our neighbors and demand that our neighbors respect our sovereignty, while we respect theirs.

Incendiary vitriol and rhetoric rarely sets the stage for good relations. We can be critical about Pakistani Policies without having to call for the destruction of Pakistan or claim we're trying to split it up. Pakistan can advance and secure its interests, without supporting terrorism and trying to manipulate the politics of its neighbors. It can support good relations with Afghanistan and India and abandon its military policies. Tajiks and Minority groups can deal with issues of marginalization by Pashtun-centrists without having to undermine Pashtuns as a whole. Pashtuns can be strong cultural fabric and community without having to marginalize other ethnic groups.

Whether good or bad, it does not matter. My morality has nothing to do with this. Its all about politics and interests. Much more important things than our morality are at stack.

Indeed we all should change. Try to learn to coexist. But who will take the first step? How are going to coexist with Pashtuns when you guys will never acknowledge your problem with drugs, terrorism and extremism?

BTW Afghanistan is a country of minorities. You Pashtuns are a minority too.. Actually honestly speaking Non Pashtuns are majority while Pashtuns are minority. Do you see? You yourself has drawn the line between Pashtuns and Non Pashtuns. According to yourself we are separate entities. You acknowledge this. Deep inside you know that Pashtuns are considered a threat by the rest of your fellow countrymen. Your subconscious betrayed you lol

[Firdousi]

Pashtuns are linked by language and tribes, however 'Loy Afghanistan' is just a farce. It's never going to happen nor should people desire it.

The sooner Pashtuns wake up and realize this the better for all of us. Unfortunately this won't happen. Ergo only two options are left: 1) imposing Persian urban/pacifist culture on Pashtuns and after few decades become a civilized society. 2) Partition along ethnic lines. Kick out Pashtun minorities from western and northern provinces, raise a wall from Zaranj to Ghazni and carpet bomb southern provinces.

Its up to you, Pashtuns.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Whether good or bad, it does not matter. My morality has nothing to do with this. Its all about politics and interests. Much more important things than our morality are at stack.

Indeed we all should change. Try to learn to coexist. But who will take the first step? How are going to coexist with Pashtuns when you guys will never acknowledge your problem with drugs, terrorism and extremism?

BTW Afghanistan is a country of minorities. You Pashtuns are a minority too.. Actually honestly speaking Non Pashtuns are majority while Pashtuns are minority. Do you see? You yourself has drawn the line between Pashtuns and Non Pashtuns. According to yourself we are separate entities. You acknowledge this. Deep inside you know that Pashtuns are considered a threat by the rest of your fellow countrymen. Your subconscious betrayed you lol

The point of me saying that is that I don't think you have nefarious intentions here. I do understand what you're saying from a perspective of interests for your respective group.

As for your question; we should all take the first step if that makes any sense. Enlightened thinking necessitates an enlightened approach, one thing that could help is to marginalize the antagonistic voices in our communities, they may believe they have our best interests at heart, but they don't. I think in trying to characterize problems like drugs, terrorism and extremism in terms of identity politics is an erroneous approach. . It's not like there's no opium cultivation in Badakhshan or Tajik radicals. The Average everyday Pashtun life isn't drastically different than the average everyday Tajik life.

I only "drew the line" in context of our discussion, in the ultimate sense; we can be distinct and unified. Those two properties are not mutually exclusive. I understand that groups are wary of each other, not sure why you're trying to characterize what I've written as some sort of doublespeak. My point was if we want to serve a better outcome we need a better approach than playing identity politics ad-nauseam.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

T Ergo only two options are left: 1) imposing Persian urban/pacifist culture on Pashtuns and after few decades become a civilized society. 2) Partition along ethnic lines. Kick out Pashtun minorities from western and northern provinces, raise a wall from Zaranj to Ghazni and carpet bomb southern provinces.

Its up to you, Pashtuns.

Now this just sounds ridiculous; there's absolutely no logic behind this post what so ever.

it's also a false dichotomy.Neither is going to happen; come up with something more constructive.

[Firdousi]

The point of me saying that is that I don't think you have nefarious intentions here. I do understand what you're saying from a perspective of interests for your respective group.

As for your question; we should all take the first step if that makes any sense. Enlightened thinking necessitates an enlightened approach, one thing that could help is to marginalize the antagonistic voices in our communities, they may believe they have our best interests at heart, but they don't. I think in trying to characterize problems like drugs, terrorism and extremism in terms of identity politics is an erroneous approach. . It's not like there's no opium cultivation in Badakhshan or Tajik radicals. The Average everyday Pashtun life isn't drastically different than the average everyday Tajik life.

I only "drew the line" in context of our discussion, in the ultimate sense; we can be distinct and unified. Those two properties are not mutually exclusive. I understand that groups are wary of each other, not sure why you're trying to characterize what I've written as some sort of doublespeak. My point was if we want to serve a better outcome we need a better approach than playing identity politics ad-nauseam.

Once again you are twisting my words. I am talking about cultures, not about human beings. There are plenty of disgusting Tajiks out there and many good Pashtuns. We are discussing cultures. And whether you like it or not not all cultures are the same. Persian culture beats Pashtun culture any day of the week. You need to stop with your cultural relativism. As I have said many times here, Tajik culture needs reforms too.

[Firdousi]

Now this just sounds ridiculous; there's absolutely no logic behind this post what so ever.

it's also a false dichotomy.Neither is going to happen; come up with something more constructive.

Its pure logic. I am not 100% unhappy with current statu quo. It benefits us. But I forgot to mention one third option, actually: Taliban take over. That would be a lose-lose for Pashtuns and Tajiks.

Honestly I don't think Afghanistan will be divided unless Taliban manage to take over southern and eastern provinces. So far they are proving to be unable to do so. So Persianization of this country is the only way left. We will never learn Pashto while Pashtuns speak Farsi. And with Iran becoming the main regional power you should expect this getting worse (for you, not for us)... so...

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Once again you are twisting my words. I am talking about cultures, not about human beings. There are plenty of disgusting Tajiks out there and many good Pashtuns. We are discussing cultures. And whether you like it or not not all cultures are the same. Persian culture beats Pashtun culture any day of the week. You need to stop with your cultural relativism. As I have said many times here, Tajik culture needs reforms too.

Sure there are things that concern me about Pashtun culture that I think Pashtuns should evolve from, but there's a lot I find beautiful about it as well that I think should remain and I feel form the backbone of it. Likewise with Tajiks. Your statements are really just based on news headlines and not an indepth exposure to Pashtun culture. It's not this monolithic slab of cut throat tyranny you seem to think it is. This "Perian culture beats Pashtun" culture ranting is simply juvenile and if that's what you think represents a better culture, then by doing so you invalidate the proposition.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Its pure logic. I am not 100% unhappy with current statu quo. It benefits us. But I forgot to mention one third option, actually: Taliban take over. That would be a lose-lose for Pashtuns and Tajiks.

Honestly I don't think Afghanistan will be divided unless Taliban manage to take over southern and eastern provinces. So far they are proving to be unable to do so. So Persianization of this country is the only way left. We will never learn Pashto while Pashtuns speak Farsi. And with Iran becoming the main regional power you should expect this getting worse (for you, not for us)... so...

Wrong, pure logic relies on axioms and propositions which are internally consistent based on its truth values. Your statement assumes too much and doesn't even give any justification for those assumptions.

You're being a demagogue here. Taliban isn't a third option,, it maybe an option, probably not a viable one, but the world is not a discrete system.