Fall of The Ottomans and Nationalism: Sh. Hamza Yusuf

[asif86]

While my ancestors were fighting building empires yours were looting and raiding caravans. It did not change too much because even today you guys still doing the same thing lol

Yeah in the form of cross-border smuggling along afghan-pak border.

[Shapur]

We muslims need to accept our differences as the Quran says that God made us different nations so we can recognize each other, if God wanted we would have been all the same race and same nation.
There is great freedom in Islam for cultural and nationalistic expression, there is no contradiction between being a nationalist and a muslim. A man can be a father, son and brother at the same time. You can be a proud Pashtun nationalist and equally proud and sincere muslim at the same time. Do not let some people who do not undrestand Islam and its purpose misguide you. Nationalism, just like any other world view can be used for destructive and negative purpose. Some muslims who can not even be classified as proper muslims look down upon others as non believers and act holier than thou and look down on other and have a sense of superiority. Does it mean Islam teaches such behaviour, of course not. Similarly Nationalism can be used for negative motive such as a sense of superiority over other nations. Nationalism, when undrestood properly can be a positive thing. It is up to us how we interpret things.

[Firdousi]

Again you have proven how retarded you are again. We were not in the region of Aryana/Khorasan? Sulaiman mts extend from Helmand to the Indus. Ariana extends to the indus you ****ing dumbass. Also your from supposedly from Herat, so that first off means your most likely not a Tajik, and second of all means that your ancestors did not create any empire so you can **** off.

Brother, chill, chill. We are all friends here. There is no need to get personal lol

From Helmand to the Indus? lmao you are so cute. Can you prove it? In any case Helmand is not Khorasan. Actually for many historians not even a Tajik city such as Kabul or Ghazni are Khorasan.

When I say "Tajik", once again, I mean Aryan/Persianspeaker inhabitant from old khorasan. Well, I am Aryan. I am Persianspeaker. And I am from Khorasan. Ergo I am a Tajik.

[Firdousi]

We muslims need to accept our differences as the Quran says that God made us different nations so we can recognize each other, if God wanted we would have been all the same race and same nation.
There is great freedom in Islam for cultural and nationalistic expression, there is no contradiction between being a nationalist and a muslim. A man can be a father, son and brother at the same time. You can be a proud Pashtun nationalist and equally proud and sincere muslim at the same time. Do not let some people who do not undrestand Islam and its purpose misguide you. Nationalism, just like any other world view can be used for destructive and negative purpose. Some muslims who can not even be classified as proper muslims look down upon others as non believers and act holier than thou and look down on other and have a sense of superiority. Does it mean Islam teaches such behaviour, of course not. Similarly Nationalism can be used for negative motive such as a sense of superiority over other nations. Nationalism, when undrestood properly can be a positive thing. It is up to us how we interpret things.

Nationalism is a disease. Dont kid yourself, its forbidden in Islam. You are confusing patriotism and nationalism. Basically nationalism means per se "I a better than you because I was born here and you were not"

[Firdousi]

Friend? I dont know you and I would never be friends with someone who constantly disrespects my people and wants my nation to be divided.

from helmand to indus:
Suba of Kabul Under the Mughals: 1585-1739: Kabul Under the Mughals - Farah Abidin - Google Books

Kabul and Ghazni Tajik cities???? lol Kabul was historically a city of indic culture and Ghazni was most definitely not a Tajik city as like I said Tajiks did not exist back then.
Tajik has not been used that way till the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and Tajiks were ignorantly grouped with farsiwan.

We are brothers. We are friends. I love you, despite being a confused teenager, you need to grow up. I did not attack "your people" because you are a Tajik. As Iblis pointed out several times and you confirmed your are a Tajik in denial. Like many other Pashtuns lol

Brother, your link does not provide any information about SOleiman Mountains, your Indian homeland, reaching Helmand. Please, can you share with us a reliable source? Thank you, my friend.

Seems you have never been to Afghanistan. Go to Kabul and Ghazni and most of the people are Persianspeaker and they claim to be "Tajiks". Please, my dear brother, educate yourself.

[Azmal]

Even then your claim of Nationalism is incredibly vague and not represented historically, because as we know Pashtuns were often warring against other Pashtuns Different Persian fiefdoms were in rivalry, rather than united with one unified identity.

And Firdousi and Amr Kror, like I said I'll need to see Amir Kror's full poem to understand context. But Firdousi was praising Saka, who were not Persians, not exactly nationalism at all if you think about it.

As I said, national state is European construct so having different fiefdoms does not negate nationalism. When Kushal baba says:



I raise my sword for the honor of Afghan
I am the proudest of time Khushal Khattak


or


I wish he had died young in honor of the Pashtun name
But to be laid in grave in a coffin with shame.

is pure nationalism and nothing else.

[Azmal]

Read my comment, baiyan. I told you Khorasan/Aryana has been always a mixed land: Bactrians, Soghdians, Parthians, Persians,.. and so on. All of them are our ancestors. Pashtuns weren't even in the region back then. While my ancestors were fighting building empires yours were looting and raiding caravans. It did not change too much because even today you guys still doing the same thing lol

On contrary Tajiks are mixture of invading Arabs, Mongols, Turks and Persian. The true decedents of Bactrians, Soghdians, and Saka are Pamiris and Pashtuns both still speak their Avestian languages.

[Firdousi]

On contrary Tajiks are mixture of invading Arabs, Mongols, Turks and Persian. The true decedents of Bactrians, Soghdians, and Saka are Pamiris and Pashtuns both still speak their Avestian languages.

Not really, brother. I mean, Pashtuns are a nation: some Pashtuns claim to be Aryans. Other are proud to be jews. Many Pashtuns trace their roots back to Qais and Arabs. Ghilzais are proud Turks. So I guess you guys don't have an identity but you are rather a conglomeration of several ethnicity under one culture and language. Its easy man: Aryan+Turk+Dravidian+Jew+Arab= Pashtun. You shouldn't reject your own roots.

[Shapur]

Nationalism is a disease. Dont kid yourself, its forbidden in Islam. You are confusing patriotism and nationalism. Basically nationalism means per se "I a better than you because I was born here and you were not"

As I said it depends on the interpretation. A muslim nationalist by default will not interpret nationalism in the sense that he is better than others as it is forbidden in Islam and the only measure of superiority is the person's taqwa (piety) according to Quran. This interpretation of superiorority by race etc only applies to non muslims.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

is pure nationalism and nothing else.

This may seem like a very subtle point, but if we look at the two verses you quote. They're not actually nationalism.the definition of nation

. Nation | Define Nation at Dictionary.com

"noun
noun
1.
a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own:
The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
2.
the territory or country itself:
the nations of Central America.
3.
a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
4.
an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

And Nationalism

Nationalism | Define Nationalism at Dictionary.com

noun
1.
spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation.
2.
devotion and loyalty to one's own country; patriotism.
3.
excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.
the desire for national advancement or political independence.
5.
the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
6.
an idiom or trait peculiar to a nation.
7.
a movement, as in the arts, based upon the folk idioms, history, aspirations, etc., of a nation.

Looking at these two definitions; it's clear to me that the verses you keep quoting have nothing to do with Nationalism; but rather Respect and Honor for his ethnic heritage and identity and fighting for the welfare of his people.

I feel this is true for Firdousi and Amir Kror as well.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

As I said it depends on the interpretation. A muslim nationalist by default will not interpret nationalism in the sense that he is better than others as it is forbidden in Islam and the only measure of superiority is the person's taqwa (piety) according to Quran. This interpretation of superiorority by race etc only applies to non muslims.

Shapur jaan

while I value you your opinion; I believe you're confusing nationalism with simply having a sense of value for your heritage and identity. The two are not the same. and the verse in Surah Al Azhab of the Qur'an isn't referring to nationalism, but rather people having different cultures and heritages and having respect for that.

Indeed Islam recognizes people of different ethnicities and origins. Salman Al Farsi (ra) and Bilal Al Habshi (ra) for example. But recognizing their identities is not the same as promoting nationalism.

[Firdousi]

Explain to me how that Yemeni fag proved im a Tajik in denial. He only posted a link which explained the Syeds of Kunar are descendant of a half Syed half Mughal from Termiz. Why would I be in denial of what I am when I am from a family who has ruled our region for hundreds of years, while you Iblis is a Yemeni and you are an Irani wannabe.

The link I posted says:
"The sulaiman mountains, farther south reaching 11,532 feet in takht-i-sulaiman, formed and important watershed between Helmand and the indus river."

You are telling me to visit Kabul and Ghazni? Arent you just some balding midgit living in Britian? Anyways done responding to you as your only response is go educate yourself brother, or even though I didnt read your link i know your from the indian subcontinent.

Wow! Thanks for the compliment, brother! I did not know my English was so good that people even believe I am Brit! lmao!

So.. according to your own words, brother, you are Sayyid, half Mongol from Termez (which BTW is mainly inhabited by Tajiks lol).. and you still dare to brag about your Pashtuniyat!!

Your link is not working. Ergo you are wrong.. bro

[Firdousi]

I wasnt going torespons but your retardation needs to be cured. Yes according to my own words by ancestor on my fathers side migrated from Termez and was a half Mughal half Arab who settled in Kunar. There in Kunar his family ruled for hundreds of years and was Pashtunized. Where do you get Tajik out of that? Your boyfriend Yemeni has even claimed to be a Pashtunized Turk lol.

My link is working you've just proven your a troll.

So you are a Mongol-Arab claiming to be Pashtun? What a wannabe. Iblis jaan is right, grana lol

Your link leads me to nowhere. Just a book advertising. Nothing else. In any case, use your brain, brother: if Soleiman Mountains reach up to Helmand... why nobody considers Helmand as part of that range of mountains in modern times??

[Azmal]

This may seem like a very subtle point, but if we look at the two verses you quote. They're not actually nationalism.the definition of nation

. Nation | Define Nation at Dictionary.com





And Nationalism

Nationalism | Define Nationalism at Dictionary.com


Looking at these two definitions; it's clear to me that the verses you keep quoting have nothing to do with Nationalism; but rather Respect and Honor for his ethnic heritage and identity and fighting for the welfare of his people.

I feel this is true for Firdousi and Amir Kror as well.

Based on these definitions there is no Pashtun nationalism then? Lol This is a very restrictive definition of nationalism. A more comprehensive will stress its political objectives whereas nationalism is taken to include, opposition to alien control, the consciousness of belonging to a particular--actual or potential nation…pride in culture, tradition institutions and achievements—and if you look at Khushak Baba or Amir Kror poems it defines nationalism and nothing else. Off course nationalism also means awareness of common political rights and responsibilities and articulate demand for self-governing—especially all forms of persuasion, agitation and concerted action thought which such sentiments are expressed or encouraged---Khushal Baba’s poem against Moghul rule and his desire for Afghan unity.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Based on these definitions there is no Pashtun nationalism then? Lol This is a very restrictive definition of nationalism. A more comprehensive will stress its political objectives whereas nationalism is taken to include, opposition to alien control, the consciousness of belonging to a particular--actual or potential nation…pride in culture, tradition institutions and achievements—and if you look at Khushak Baba or Amir Kror poems it defines nationalism and nothing else. Off course nationalism also means awareness of common political rights and responsibilities and articulate demand for self-governing—especially all forms of persuasion, agitation and concerted action thought which such sentiments are expressed or encouraged---Khushal Baba’s poem against Moghul rule and his desire for Afghan unity.

What I am saying is that the reference you cite are not nationalistic; but rather simply just Dignity for One's Identity. I think there's another word for it, but can't think of it at the moment. But definitely not nationalism. If it doesn't meet the definition of nationalism; then it can't be nationalism. Fighting for political rights are of course a necessity especially if you come from communities that are socially marginalized. But even this is debatable whether it's nationalism or rather simply civil rights.

Having value and respect for one's heritage and culture as well as political rights is perfectly acceptable.