Fall of The Ottomans and Nationalism: Sh. Hamza Yusuf

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Important to watch: on the British?European creation of Nationalism and how it was created by European Imperialists to undermine Muslims.

Falling Of Ottoman Empire By Shaykh Hamza Yusuf - YouTube

[Azmal]

Important to watch: on the British?European creation of Nationalism and how it was created by European Imperialists to undermine Muslims.

Falling Of Ottoman Empire By Shaykh Hamza Yusuf - YouTube

It fits more with Arabic and middle east...in our part of region nationalism has always exited...when Amir Kror says I'm a lion there is no one like me...it was a nationalism....when Firdawsi calls Arab lizard eaters...it was nationalism.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

It fits more with Arabic and middle east...in our part of region nationalism has always exited...when Amir Kror says I'm a lion there is no one like me...it was a nationalism....when Firdawsi calls Arab lizard eaters...it was nationalism.

In Regards to Amir Kror: you'd have to give the full context of the statement, because whatever you posted does not suggest nationalism, but egocentrism. In regards to Firdousi, clearly he resented anyone he felt subordinate too, Turks, Arabs, even Afghans in some instances. Shahnamah wrote about Saka, who were not Persians, and he never had an ideological motivation. so I would disagree.

As far as regional history: Most of the major historical events doesn't suggest nationalism. Even though I personally have critiques about Ahmad Abdali, he wasn't a nationalist; he had Qzilbash elite as his ministry, made allies with Turkomen Rulers to fight against rival Pashtun Tribes, acquired territories outside the boundaries of his hereditary homeland and included people from those regions into his Empire, not a nationalist. Even Mirwais Khan, could be argued as not a natiionalist since he waited for a religious decree from The Sheikhs of Makkah Sharif before he acted against the Safawiyyah.

There were certainly fiefdoms in the region and people had strong sense of cultural idenity, but not anything resembling Modern Construct of Nationalism. That we owe to European Imperialism instigating and motivating these actions.

[Azmal]

In Regards to Amir Kror: you'd have to give the full context of the statement, because whatever you posted does not suggest nationalism, but egocentrism. In regards to Firdousi, clearly he resented anyone he felt subordinate too, Turks, Arabs, even Afghans in some instances. Shahnamah wrote about Saka, who were not Persians, and he never had an ideological motivation. so I would disagree.

As far as regional history: Most of the major historical events doesn't suggest nationalism. Even though I personally have critiques about Ahmad Abdali, he wasn't a nationalist; he had Qzilbash elite as his ministry, made allies with Turkomen Rulers to fight against rival Pashtun Tribes, acquired territories outside the boundaries of his hereditary homeland and included people from those regions into his Empire, not a nationalist. Even Mirwais Khan, could be argued as not a natiionalist since he waited for a religious decree from The Sheikhs of Makkah Sharif before he acted against the Safawiyyah.

There were certainly fiefdoms in the region and people had strong sense of cultural idenity, but not anything resembling Modern Construct of Nationalism. That we owe to European Imperialism instigating and motivating these actions.

You mean nation state construct of "nationalism" ? Then you right, nation state are European construct…but it does not mean nation or nationalism did not exited…in an abstract definition a nation is --A population of an ethnic unity, inhabiting a territory of geographic unity—keeping in mind this definition the poems of Amir Kror and Firdousi shows nothing else but nationalism.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

You mean nation state construct of "nationalism" ? Then you right, nation state are European construct…but it does not mean nation or nationalism did not exited…in an abstract definition a nation is --A population of an ethnic unity, inhabiting a territory of geographic unity—keeping in mind this definition the poems of Amir Kror and Firdousi shows nothing else but nationalism.

Even then your claim of Nationalism is incredibly vague and not represented historically, because as we know Pashtuns were often warring against other Pashtuns Different Persian fiefdoms were in rivalry, rather than united with one unified identity.

And Firdousi and Amr Kror, like I said I'll need to see Amir Kror's full poem to understand context. But Firdousi was praising Saka, who were not Persians, not exactly nationalism at all if you think about it.

[Firdousi]

Even then your claim of Nationalism is incredibly vague and not represented historically, because as we know Pashtuns were often warring against other Pashtuns Different Persian fiefdoms were in rivalry, rather than united with one unified identity.

And Firdousi and Amr Kror, like I said I'll need to see Amir Kror's full poem to understand context. But Firdousi was praising Saka, who were not Persians, not exactly nationalism at all if you think about it.

Shahnamah is a milestone in the history of Persian nationalism. The guy is always praising Iranian people while its hostile toward Turkic peoples.

Do you know what? Actually the greatest mythologic Persian hero ever, Rostam, his mother was Rudaba was the princess of Kabul and his dad, Zal, was the King of Sakastan. So basically, Tajiks. Pashtun nationalists will go crazy, but Shahnamah praises Tajik heritage and contributions to Persian civilization. After all Ferdowsi himself was a Tajik from Khorasan lol

[Firdousi]

Shahnameh is one of the greatest books ever written. Rostam was Zabuli, explain to me how that makes him Tajik. Show me evidense that they were ever mentioned as Tajik or their ethnicities were ever mentioned at all. Not only that you are claiming people who historically occupied Kabul and Sakastan Tajiks too? Not only that your claim Ferdousi as Tajik too XD. Being form Afghanistan/Khorasan/Aryana and speaking Farsi does not automatically make you Tajik. Tajik is only a term that has been popularized recently and Tajiks are only Persianized. Your not Persian and even the one dynasty Tajikistan actually has were actually of Parthian origin.

By "Tajik" I mean Persianspeaker Aryan tribes from Khorasan province. Ferdowsi was Persianspeaker and also an "Aryan/Iranian" from Khorasan(descendent from Bactrians, Soghdians, Persians or Parthians etc). Ergo he was a "Tajik". Those Persianspeaker Pashtuns from north and western Afghanistan are de facto "Tajiks".

I don't even need to say anything about Zabulistan/Sakistan and Kabul being Tajik places. You can do all the research by yourself. Pashtuns are from Soleiman Mountains (ask History of Pashtuns he will confirm it to you) and recently in the past few decades they moved into what is now Afghanistan.

[Firdousi]

Naitonalism has somewhat existed in these parts since ancient times. For example Xerxes counted all nations inhabited by Persians as apart of Persian (ie Carmania). However in Afghanistan other than the Sulaiman mts which was known as Pakhtunkhwa the other kingdoms were not nationalist and had mixed populations. These kingdoms im talking about are Kabulistan, Balkh, Zabulistan, Siestan, Kapisa, Ghor etc.

You really need to educate yourself, brother. You live in la-la land.

[Firdousi]

In my opinion it is wrong to call them Tajik as they never called themselves that. At that time only Persians settled in Sogdiana were called Tajiks.

If you want to claim them as Tajik places then you do need to say something about it and show proof. The whole area of Sakastan and Zabulistan were called Arachosia which is thought by most to be inhabited by Pactyans. It was then divided in two in the middle ages with Sakastan being ruled by Sakas and Zabulistan being created by the Hephtalites and ruled by their descendants the Zunbils. Where is the evidense for either groups being Tajik. There is no proof that they are Tajik. While for Pashtuns there is still a tribe in the Helmand area known as Sakzai/Sagzi and there are many poets from seistan which had the name Sagzi. Also Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi's mother was a Pashtun daughter of the ruler of Zabul. Since you want to use History of Pashtuns as a source he believes that last point aswell.

On Kabulistan, it was ruled by Indianized Hepthalites/Kushans known as Kabul Shahis. Dont see whats so Tajik about that.

You see, man? First you ask for evidences. Then you claim without proving any.

You made plenty of hilarious and bold claims. Mahmud Ghaznawi Pashtun, Arachosians Pashtuns, you even mistake modern Zabul province in eastern Afghanistan with Zabulistan. Please, prove it.

[Firdousi]

Prove me wrong. Those kingdoms most definitely did exist and were most definitely mixed. You are the one who must educate yourself, brother.

So.. you claim those places were "mixed" and you also want me to prove you right? lmao you are hilarious. You made that claim so you are who needs to prove it. You made a claim ergo the burden of prove lies on your shoulders.

Indeed Khorasan always has been a mixed provinces. Originally mainly by Iranic tribes. In the past millennia many Turkic tribes moved in. Still its part of the Tajik history. Not Pashtun. Once again I would like to remind you that you guys are originally from Soleiman Mountains. India is your homeland. Not Khorasan/Aryana or whatever. Please, just ask History of Pashtuns. He has several times proved me right.

[Firdousi]

On Mahmud Ghaznavi's mother being Pashtun:
Empires of the Indus: The Story of a River - Alice Albinia - Google Books

Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi was a half Afghan as his mother was from Zabul (she was not Persian wiki is one of the only sources that states). Some may claim she was Turk since Ferdowsi called him the son of 2 slaves and called his mother/ him Zabely. However his court poets called him this aswell so I doubt they would use it in a derogatory way.

Now that we got that out of the way here is how Afghans were the catalyst to his empire. As we should know a very large maybe majority of his army was made up of Pashtuns. Also Mahmud Ghaznavi's empire began after removing his step brother Ismael from power. The interesting part is it was Pashtuns who defeated, captured, and removed Ismael from power.


"It now remains to add an extract from Mr. Vansittart's Treatise on the Afghans, as given in the Asiatic Researches t:—" In the reign of Sultan Mahmud of Ghaznah,eight men arrived, of the posterity of Khalid the son of Khalid, whose names were Kalun, Alun, Daud, Yalua, Ahmed, Avoin, and Ghazi. The Sultan was much pleased with them, and appointed each a commander in his army. He also conferred on them the offices of Vazir, and Vakili Mutlak, or Regent of the Empire. Wherever they were stationed, they obtained possession of the country, built mosques, and overthrew the temples of idols. They increased so much, that the army of Mahmudwas chiefly composed of Afghans. When Herhind,a powerful prince of Hindustan, meditated an invasion of Ghaznah, Sultan Mahmuddispatched against him the descendants of Khalid, with twenty thousand horse: a battle ensued; the Afghansmade the attack; and, after a severe engagement, which lasted from day-break till noon, defeatedHerhind,killed many of the infidels, and converted some to the Mohammedan faith.

"The Afghans now began to establish themselves in the mountains; and some settled in cities, with the permission of Sultan Mahmud. They formed regulations, dividing themselves into four classes, agreeably to the following descriptions:—The first is the pure class, consisting of those whose fathers and mothers were Afghans. The second class consists of those whose fathers were Afghans, and mothers of another nation. The third class contains those whose mothers were Afghans, and fathers of another nation. The fourth class is composed of the children of women whose mothers were Afghans, and fathers and husbands of a different nation. Persons who do not belong to one of these classes are not called Afghans."

From all these accounts of different authors, we must conclude that Sultan Mahmud attacked and subdued to him part of the Afghans; but those residing in the mountains (resembling, in this respect, the Circassians and other petty nations of the Caucasus) maintained their independence, and ever after harassed those passing their country; of which we read frequent instances in the history of Jenghiz Khan, Timur, Baber, and others. Even history tells us, that the successors of Sultan Mahmud had to struggle against the ever-rebellious Afghans residing in the mountains.[5]

This Ismail was dethroned by Sultan Mahmud, chiefly through the efforts of the Afghans, as we are told in the Riaz Ulmuhabbat:—" When Sabuktaghin emigrated from the perishable abode to the eternal, he was, agreeably to his last will, succeeded by his son Ismail, who was born of a daughter of Albtaghin, Sabuktaghin's protector: the mother of Sultan Mahmud, his second son, was a daughter of a Chief of Zabul. A quarrel arose between the two brothers, and they prepared for war; when the Afghans, who were attached to the Chief of Zabul, espoused the cause of Sultan Mahmud; who constituting them the van of his army, they executed a charge upon Ismail's troops. Ismail was discomfited by their gallantry, and himself taken prisoner, and shut up in some fortress. Mahmud was so pleased with them, that he married his sister to Malik Shahu, at that time the Chief of the Afghans, of whom Salar Masud Ghazi was born." See also Ferishta, Part I. p. 27.

(Bernhard Dorn, History of the Afghans, p-79, translation of makhzan-i-afghani)

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Credit goes to [MENTION=18842]Samandri[/MENTION] for finding the quote.


On Arachosians being Pashtuns:

You yourself have claimed Pashtuns inhabited the Sulaiman mts right? Well guess what is in Arachosia, thats right the Sulaiman mts. Arachosia extended from Helmand to the Indus.

On Zabul being apart of Zabulistan:

My goodness you arent this stupid are you?
The Baburnama: Memoirs of Babur, Prince and Emperor - W.M. Thackston, Jr. - Google Books

Too long, did not read it lol

So I have wasted your time. I feel so good

[Firdousi]

Your a special kind of stupid arent you, I told you to prove to me the areas were not mixed which you obviously cannot.
Here is your proof that these areas were indeed mixed:

Bactria: Asii, Pasiani, Tochari,, Sacaruli. Not only that but obvious ones aswell such as Hephthalites, Saka, and Yui Chi. The fact that you question this shows you lack of knowledge of the region
"Apollodorus attributes the conquest of the Bactrian kingdom to four nomad peoples, Asii, Pasiani, Tochari, and Sacarauli"
The Greeks in Bactria & India - Google Books

Zabulistan: Hepthalite and Aborignals of the area (paktyans?)
Ancient History of Central Asia: Yuezhi origin Royal Peoples: Kushana, Huna ... - Adesh Katariya - Google Books

Drangiana/Seistan: Drangae and Ariaspaei and later on the Sagzi/Sakazai
A Manual of Ancient Geography - Leonhard Schmitz - Google Books

Kabulistan/Paropamisus: Ashvakan, Parsi, Ambautae, Parsuate, Aristophyli
A Manual of Ancient Geography - Leonhard Schmitz - Google Books

Read my comment, baiyan. I told you Khorasan/Aryana has been always a mixed land: Bactrians, Soghdians, Parthians, Persians,.. and so on. All of them are our ancestors. Pashtuns weren't even in the region back then. While my ancestors were fighting building empires yours were looting and raiding caravans. It did not change too much because even today you guys still doing the same thing lol

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Shahnamah is a milestone in the history of Persian nationalism. The guy is always praising Iranian people while its hostile toward Turkic peoples.

Do you know what? Actually the greatest mythologic Persian hero ever, Rostam, his mother was Rudaba was the princess of Kabul and his dad, Zal, was the King of Sakastan. So basically, Tajiks. Pashtun nationalists will go crazy, but Shahnamah praises Tajik heritage and contributions to Persian civilization. After all Ferdowsi himself was a Tajik from Khorasan lol

The Saka spoke a language very distinct from Persian. So either Ferdowsi was unaware of this and thought they were Persian, or he's not that nationalistic.

[Firdousi]

The Saka spoke a language very distinct from Persian. So either Ferdowsi was unaware of this and thought they were Persian, or he's not that nationalistic.

So did most of the people from eastern provinces back then. Persian was just used as lingua franca since the Achaemenid times. It only became the main language after Arab arrival. Eastern Iranians (aka modern Tajiks, WE) saved Persian language, Persian culture and Persian identity.

But that was not my point. Rostam was not from Sakastan. His father, Zal, was appointed by the Persian king as governor of that place and his mother was from Kabul. Even today most of the people in Zabulistan (modern Nimruz) are non Pashtuns and Zaranj still is considered as one of historical Persian cultural capitals from the Iranian Intermezzo.

I was just pointing out a fact: most of Pashtun nationalist suffer from inferiority complex when it comes to Tajiks and they like always to look down on us basically because when we compare Tajik history/culture with Pashtun history/culture deep down Pashtuns realize that their tribal culture is nothing compared to the glorious Tajik history. Basically "Tajiks" have made huge contributions to humanity while Pashtuns always have been a wild tribal folk. So.. I am right lmao

[Firdousi]

The Saka spoke a language very distinct from Persian. So either Ferdowsi was unaware of this and thought they were Persian, or he's not that nationalistic.

BTW Iblis jaan I am not a nationalist Tajik. I dont care about nationalism. Its a disease. But when it comes to history oh hell yeah Tajiks culture is much interesting and rich than Pashtun culture. Nobody can deny this. Not even a Pashtun nationalist lol