Fall of The Ottomans and Nationalism: Sh. Hamza Yusuf

[Shapur]

Shapur jaan

while I value you your opinion; I believe you're confusing nationalism with simply having a sense of value for your heritage and identity. The two are not the same. and the verse in Surah Al Azhab of the Qur'an isn't referring to nationalism, but rather people having different cultures and heritages and having respect for that.

Indeed Islam recognizes people of different ethnicities and origins. Salman Al Farsi (ra) and Bilal Al Habshi (ra) for example. But recognizing their identities is not the same as promoting nationalism.

OK, so let's agree the nationalism is the wrong term. How about patriotism or in Pashto Hewad palana?

The main point I am trying to make is that people who are fighting for their rights which also include preservation of one's language/culture/heritage etc, should not be dismissed simply as nationalists and then a religious decree issued to supress their natural rights. As Samandri mentioned in another thread, during the establishment of Pakistani state, a large number of mullahs were sent to Pakhtunkhwa to brainwash and blackmail Pashtun in the name of Islam that they must join Pakistan otherwise they would be nationalists and going against Islam by not being part of this new state meant only for muslims.

In Turkey, the Kurds are labelled as nationalist kafir communists who are working against their fellow muslim Turks. The funny thing is that Turks out of nationalism are trying to Turkify Kurds but conviniently bring out the Islam card when Kurds ask for their own rights.
If tomorrow the Berbers of North Africa get rid of Arabic in favour of their own indigenous languag, I am sure many muftis, will call it a nationalist move and outlaw it as haram .
If we as muslims start accepting each other rahter than trying to subdue each other then the enemies will have no chance of taking advantage as they are doing in Kurdistan right now.

[Firdousi]

OK, so let's agree the nationalism is the wrong term. How about patriotism or in Pashto Hewad palana?

The main point I am trying to make is that people who are fighting for their rights which also include preservation of one's language/culture/heritage etc, should not be dismissed simply as nationalists and then a religious decree issued to supress their natural rights. As Samandri mentioned in another thread, during the establishment of Pakistani state, a large number of mullahs were sent to Pakhtunkhwa to brainwash and blackmail Pashtun in the name of Islam that they must join Pakistan otherwise they would be nationalists and going against Islam by not being part of this new state meant only for muslims.

In Turkey, the Kurds are labelled as nationalist kafir communists who are working against their fellow muslim Turks. The funny thing is that Turks out of nationalism are trying to Turkify Kurds but conviniently bring out the Islam card when Kurds ask for their own rights.
If tomorrow the Berbers of North Africa get rid of Arabic in favour of their own indigenous languag, I am sure many muftis, will call it a nationalist move and outlaw it as haram .
If we as muslims start accepting each other rahter than trying to subdue each other then the enemies will have no chance of taking advantage as they are doing in Kurdistan right now.

PKK is a kaffir communist movement. Its not just Turkish propaganda. Its a fact.

There will never be unity between Muslims basically because we are not like the West. We have too many sects, too many ideologies, too many ethnic groups, too many nations, too many countries struggling to become the main regional power, too many non-regional countries sticking their noses into our business.. and so on. Its just imposible to bring all Muslims together under one banner. The only think we have all in common is Islam, its the backbone of our region. And with the raise of nationalism all over the region its fading away.

[nary]

So.. you claim those places were "mixed" and you also want me to prove you right? lmao you are hilarious. You made that claim so you are who needs to prove it. You made a claim ergo the burden of prove lies on your shoulders.

Indeed Khorasan always has been a mixed provinces. Originally mainly by Iranic tribes. In the past millennia many Turkic tribes moved in. Still its part of the Tajik history. Not Pashtun. Once again I would like to remind you that you guys are originally from Soleiman Mountains. India is your homeland. Not Khorasan/Aryana or whatever. Please, just ask History of Pashtuns. He has several times proved me right.

Interesting that you say India is our homeland but the majority of Afghan Tajiks look Indian mixed with Mongoloid or Hispanic. Pashtuns who have been unmixed have a Mediterranean/Jewish/European look. If a Pashtun has had an ancestor or parent that was a Tajik, the offspring readily shows it.

[Azmal]

What I am saying is that the reference you cite are not nationalistic; but rather simply just Dignity for One's Identity. I think there's another word for it, but can't think of it at the moment. But definitely not nationalism. If it doesn't meet the definition of nationalism; then it can't be nationalism. Fighting for political rights are of course a necessity especially if you come from communities that are socially marginalized. But even this is debatable whether it's nationalism or rather simply civil rights.

Having value and respect for one's heritage and culture as well as political rights is perfectly acceptable.

This discussion reminds me of Hobbes idea of good and evil, which he insist that evaluating objects or actions as good or evil depends on no other basis than desires and versions. So we can agree to disagree hahah…just want to add the term nationalism has negative connotation in west, due to nationalist activism against colonialism and post colonialism domination.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIJrSp28Ojk