Pakistan's Swat Operation and Failure

[Shehbaz Khan]

Calling Swat operation a failure is a joke! For all those who claim so haven't been to Swat at the time of the operation and after that! Now coming towards target killing, for the sake of God don't tell me that the army was conducting an operation against Target killing, though they should stop it but target killing is something way different than what was happening in Swat at the time of the Talibans.

Now coming to Waziristan, Zarb-e-Azab, is going to clear these *******s for the time being as I said earlier to Doctor Barakzai but he don't want to go towards the solution rather will keep whining about what Pakistan did in the past. If Fazl-Ullah hides in Afghanistan and you than complain about Pakistan playing double games. The fact of the matter is that unless there is a collective strategy by the two countries we cannot get rid of this mess. But that doesn't mean that we should not do anything. Attacks on the airports and all this stuff was too much for Pakistan to digest, when we gave them time for peace talks people like Toramana were there to say that we are favoring the Talibs now when we are having an operation against them people are saying that we are killing innocent Pashtuns.

I don't deny the fact that this operation has effected innocent civilians and that it may have killed many civilians as well. No operation can be conducted with Zero Percent Civilian casualties that's something impossible. What I want to see after the operation is the Rehabilitation process conducted under the supervision of the Army so that these people who left their homes for peace are rewarded. Their houses constructed and their villages developed.

And yes than there are those who say that the military men drink alcohol and dance in 18+ parties. I don't know how many of this large military will be drinkers even if they are so what? That makes us unholy warriors? Thank You for the title. We are happy with it.

And Army officers send their wives to the bed of seniors for promotion that was another Joke by [MENTION=1234]Smarty[/MENTION], shows us more about his mindset and his ignorance about how Army works here in Pakistan. Whether it's the son of an Army Chief or a common Soldier they both have to go through the same process to have promotion and stuff.

[کیش]

The fact that majority of their army officers have a big gut comes to show how serious their army and strategists are.

[Al-Afghani]

A Stabilized Afghanistan will give up the claim of durrandline.Even The superior India with respect to Pakistan is being forced by Smaller Pakistan to even propose LOC=International border,But Pakistan under Musharaf Refused.

A Stabilized Afghanistan will work Closely with Pakistan on Economic Terms and built strong relations.

Hard for you to consume but i can tell you that one day Pashtuns region's of Afghanistan will ask Pakistan to merge them with Pakistan proper and not the other way around.

It is only a matter of time. The Afghan Pashtuns are already closer to Pakistan than they are to TajiksUzbeksHazara, in regards to culture, business, language, etc.

[Smarty]

[MENTION=1585]Shehbaz Khan[/MENTION] sons of faujis are given prefrence in ISSB. A percentage of them are najaiz awlaad, who are result of impregnation from semen of seniors of their husbands. This sinful bastaard army works for free mason.

[Smarty]

Those who think i am just ranting, must know that this tradition of trading wives and sending wives to superiors also exist in indians. This tradition has roots from british indian army, in which desi officers used to send their wives to their farangi superiors. Thats why pashtuns used to look down upon those who were recruiting in british indian army. Thats why khattaks were labelled beghaired, they got singled out even though pashtuns from some other tribes also served farangis e.g yousafzais of mardan and pashtuns of nowshera and charsada. Note that , a khattak major general is leading operation in NW, punjabi blood must be flowing in his views if his father was also in army

[Shehbaz Khan]

@Smarty, you don't have any sort of proofs for your claims. If you have please share. Else your words are just mere words that you are using to tell us about you wishful thinking.

And to seal your intelligence is that you think that Khattaks are beghairata and so are yousufzai! wallah bas da ghairati kho yao ta ye baqi kho khushal khan khattak na tar ajmal khattak baba pori mong tol beghairata yu!

And the Major General I don't know whether is a Khattak or not, but if he is, to me he is more of a Pakhtun with much amount of ghairat and pukhto than you could ever imagine.

[Smarty]

@Smarty, you don't have any sort of proofs for your claims. If you have please share. Else your words are just mere words that you are using to tell us about you wishful thinking.

And to seal your intelligence is that you think that Khattaks are beghairata and so are yousufzai! wallah bas da ghairati kho yao ta ye baqi kho khushal khan khattak na tar ajmal khattak baba pori mong tol beghairata yu!

And the Major General I don't know whether is a Khattak or not, but if he is, to me he is more of a Pakhtun with much amount of ghairat and pukhto than you could ever imagine.

I didnt generalize, i only talked about fauji families from the particular tribes and regions, napak army is also popular in your nowshera, so was the case in british times. Dont compare khushal baba with your beghairat fauji heroes, who send their wives to beds of punjabi officers

[Toramana]

In Paki Army, the month of December is called the holy month of December because that is when their reports for promotion are compiled and bribery including sending wives to seniors is the main tool for a favourable report.

Remember Musharaf's time ISPR spokesman. I have forgotten his name but they used to say when the ISPR spokesman arrives at Musharaf's place in the morning, his wife leaves Musharaf's bedroom and when ISPR spokesman leaves Musharaf's place in the evening, his wife arrives in Musharaf's bedroom. This way both served Musharaf.

[Toramana]

But Pakis can do anything for money. When Gulf states started becoming wealthy during 1960s and 1970s, Pakis started getting closed to them. In Bhutoo's days Pakistani officials would supply women to Shiekh Zaid Bin Sultan and other Arab Shiekhs for aid. In particular, on Paki bank, BCCI, Bank of Commerce and Credit International founded by one Agha Hassan Abidi later called Bank of Crooks and Criminal International due to involvement in money laundering, drug money, etc. used to supply women to Shiekhs to oblige them to deposit petro-dollars in BCCI. In fact, Shiekhs were main sponsors of these banks.

In the Rahim Yar Khan area of the Punjab, Shiekh Zaid's progeny and other Shiekhs are still maintaining a large mansion together with a small air-strip where locals serve them.

"During its meteoric rise in the 1980s, BCCI was anything but a "Third World bank." Nominally founded in 1972 by Pakistani banker Agha Hasan Abedi, it was initially capitalized by the British-run Sheik Zayed of Abu Dhabi, incorporated in Luxembourg, and conducted all of its real business in London. True, Abedi was closely allied with the Pakistani military, especially with Gen. Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, who took power in 1977; and BCCI was used as a laundromat for the billions of dollars a year generated by the hundreds of heroin laboratories in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province (NWFP) that processed Afghani opium and smuggled it onto the world market. Likewise, BCCI was the central bank for the British and American arms flows to the Afghan mujahideen."

http://surrenderingislam.com/content/real-story-bcci

[Loy Afghanistan]

But Pakis can do anything for money. When Gulf states started becoming wealthy during 1960s and 1970s, Pakis started getting closed to them. In Bhutoo's days Pakistani officials would supply women to Shiekh Zaid Bin Sultan and other Arab Shiekhs for aid. In particular, on Paki bank, BCCI, Bank of Commerce and Credit International founded by one Agha Hassan Abidi later called Bank of Crooks and Criminal International due to involvement in money laundering, drug money, etc. used to supply women to Shiekhs to oblige them to deposit petro-dollars in BCCI. In fact, Shiekhs were main sponsors of these banks.

In the Rahim Yar Khan area of the Punjab, Shiekh Zaid's progeny and other Shiekhs are still maintaining a large mansion together with a small air-strip where locals serve them.

"During its meteoric rise in the 1980s, BCCI was anything but a "Third World bank." Nominally founded in 1972 by Pakistani banker Agha Hasan Abedi, it was initially capitalized by the British-run Sheik Zayed of Abu Dhabi, incorporated in Luxembourg, and conducted all of its real business in London. True, Abedi was closely allied with the Pakistani military, especially with Gen. Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, who took power in 1977; and BCCI was used as a laundromat for the billions of dollars a year generated by the hundreds of heroin laboratories in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province (NWFP) that processed Afghani opium and smuggled it onto the world market. Likewise, BCCI was the central bank for the British and American arms flows to the Afghan mujahideen."

http://surrenderingislam.com/content/real-story-bcci

Who owns this bank. I can search for google. But maybe you got a better source? Just curious who owns this bank

[Toramana]

Who owns this bank. I can search for google. But maybe you got a better source? Just curious who owns this bank

The bank was declared illegal and closed down by Western elite after they together with greedy Paki generals and individuals used it for criminal purposes.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

And we are suppose to believe those random claim without any proof and this is the status of the People having lived/Born in the Developed world.

[Loy Afghanistan]

The bank was declared illegal and closed down by Western elite after they together with greedy Paki generals and individuals used it for criminal purposes.

I understand, but you can't find out names of those responsible? We live in information important times. I bet many Panjabs, Sikhs, Baluchs, Pashtuns living in those areas, scammed by the owners and workers, want pay back in the future.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Calling Swat operation a failure is a joke!

Well, then I'd say in the words of a great man I respect, if Pakistani strategists don't understand the motivations, intentions of their adversary and their own role in this malfeasance - they will be "laughing their way to the graveyard" over this "joke." Hardly a joke when snipers can easily go around Swat and find their high profile targets.

For all those who claim so haven't been to Swat at the time of the operation and after that!

If you read the history of how it came to their rule in the first place, even the recent news is not so good:
http://www.aljazeera.com/video/asia/...139136448.html

Here was how they came to power in the first place:

Mohammed Tariq, 36, a thickly bearded cafeteria worker who blamed the Taliban for spreading fear and the army for alienating the population by inflicting a heavy toll in civilian casualties. "We hope that it doesn't fail." Like many locals, he was antagonized by the Taliban's violent methods but supports the call for Shari'a law. "The real issue was the courts," he says. "It took too long to get justice. People are fed up with this system. It's also corrupt.

Now coming towards target killing, for the sake of God don't tell me that the army was conducting an operation against Target killing, though they should stop it but target killing is something way different than what was happening in Swat at the time of the Talibans.

Per above, the Al Jazeera commentary and the commentary by that Swati, when taken into account show the conditions that led to that rise of that milita has not changed - all that has changed is some civilian abuse by uniformed soldiers.

Now coming to Waziristan, Zarb-e-Azab, is going to clear these *******s for the time being as I said earlier to Doctor Barakzai but he don't want to go towards the solution rather will keep whining about what Pakistan did in the past.

Because this is important. The problem is there is a concept called moral imperative in war. Sun Tzu, in his Art of War talks about how important the moral imperative is in this sort of conflict.

Pakistan has no moral imperative here except to preserve a corrupt feudal state where power rests in the hands of a few oligarchs.

What is their adversary's moral imperative? According to them, an Islamic country has non Muslim occupiers in it. Here is what the CIA noted with respect to the theological basis for these claims ringing true (remember this is Scheuer writing this):

"This concept of defensive holy war is associated historically with the heroic figures Nur Al Din and Saladin, but actually the authority they possessed ... rose from the authority and responsibility of all Muslims, incumbent on everyone as an individual duty, to defend the religion and territory of Islam against aggressors...This concept ... is defined in classical [Islamic] juristic thought

According to the same author JT Johnson who studied the legal and juristic basis of holy war, he says these struggles are not

legitimized by the authority of the Caliph or Imam ... but by the individual authority and responsibility of Muslims to oppose Crusaders as aggressors against dar al-Islam

This is important because even according to the CIA, Pakistan, by its own admission is using supply lines to support the occupation of multiple Muslim nations.

THE TEACHING Pakistan gave to these Pashtuns and that they themselves had in the era of Amanullah Khan was that which was defined above.

So your next criticism will be: OK so if this is the case, how dare they attack innocent Pakistanis etc etc etc

Their answer, is simple: Pakistan is subverting the same defensive holy war doctrine it used previously and also supplying the killing machines to their proxies' adversaries. What else did they expect?

If Fazl-Ullah hides in Afghanistan and you than complain about Pakistan playing double games. The fact of the matter is that unless there is a collective strategy by the two countries we cannot get rid of this mess.

The mess is easy to get rid of. Stop the supply lines and tacit support for drones and declare neutrality and get the hell out of FATA.

But that doesn't mean that we should not do anything.

Sure it does if you are clearly in the morally reprehensible wrong.

Attacks on the airports and all this stuff was too much for Pakistan to digest, when we gave them time for peace talks people like Toramana were there to say that we are favoring the Talibs now when we are having an operation against them people are saying that we are killing innocent Pashtuns.

Go with the evidence, historical precedent, and realistic national interest for and by the people (all of the collective people) and who gives a rat's ass what some conspiracy theorists say.

I don't deny the fact that this operation has effected innocent civilians and that it may have killed many civilians as well. No operation can be conducted with Zero Percent Civilian casualties that's something impossible.

Yes, but as I said, Islamical jurisprudence does not at all support the stance of Pakistan getting mad at these fighters attacking it for supporting blatant occupation of Muslim lands. That is not even my statement, that is the state of the CIA noting that this same doctrine was what Pakistan, and Amanullah Khan before them used to raise up the tribal militias.

What I want to see after the operation is the Rehabilitation process conducted under the supervision of the Army so that these people who left their homes for peace are rewarded. Their houses constructed and their villages developed.

Well as you saw the in the AL Jazeera article, nearly 5 years out, the Pakistani government has yet to revive Swat's silk industry and hasn't done squat except employ some deviant pot bellied soldiers as an occupation force in Swat. So much less will be expected for their productivity in FATA.

It is utterly shameful that Pakistan, to date, used the British era collective punishment laws on the tribal people like they were second class citizens.


And yes than there are those who say that the military men drink alcohol and dance in 18+ parties. I don't know how many of this large military will be drinkers even if they are so what? That makes us unholy warriors? Thank You for the title. We are happy with it.

Well, at least you are admitting that as I showed above, the Islamic Law aspect of things are not on your side. Admission is the first step to fixing a problem.

You should not call these Pak Army soldiers murderer fascist thugs "shaheed" as according to the above authors referencing classical era jurists, the guys in FATA are abiding by "holy" standards far more applicably than the Pak Askar. Its an embarrassment of the term.

And yes, drinking is against Islam and the minute you know Musharraf and these pieces of feces are doing that sort of stuff, that should be a firing (pink slip) offense.

This only all matters because Pakistan lays claims, as badlun noted, to being a Muslim country.

Otherwise, Pakistan needs to make an official announcement and change its constitution to make it clear that its army does not operate according to Islamic standards.

This then would as badlun said, make the existence of Pakistan an anomaly as its founders and concepts were based on "Islamic Statehood" and protection from a primarily polytheist India


And Army officers send their wives to the bed of seniors for promotion that was another Joke by @Smarty, shows us more about his mindset and his ignorance about how Army works here in Pakistan. Whether it's the son of an Army Chief or a common Soldier they both have to go through the same process to have promotion and stuff.

No comment since I do not know anything about this. What I can tell you is that I know a high level air force general from Karak who I met through his son at Yale. They were bragging how they killed a tribal guy once using their lashgar. I asked them why the guy had a problem with them and it became apparent that they were apart of the local corruption and thievery... so it was discernible to any listener that this resulted in the attack on them.

So all I see out of the Pak military thus far is corruption and more corruption.

The issue here Shahbaz is that you have not made a convincing case as to why the MORAL IMPERITIVE lies on Pakistan's side. And that is the problem with Pakistan's approach. It cannot claim Islam, being in the right, and use the label terrorist when its very strategy and survival depended on the juristic interpretation I cited above -

How does all this add up? Well its the same reason d'etre Pakistan gives its soldiers and irregulars for the Kashmir interventionalism by Pakistan.

So Pakistan has to have true representatives sit down and decide which policy it will pursue and also explain how it reconciles its contradictory practices.

One that stage of soul searching is done, Pakistan can then issue an order to its people that is consistent with respect to BOTH Afghanistan and Kashmir instead of its current policy which involves hitting survival money off the West like some mercenary while claiming one thing applies in the Western border in one place (that did not apply 20 years ago) and a complete other policy applies on the other border!

[BarakzaiAbdali]

@Smarty, you don't have any sort of proofs for your claims. If you have please share. Else your words are just mere words that you are using to tell us about you wishful thinking.

And to seal your intelligence is that you think that Khattaks are beghairata and so are yousufzai! wallah bas da ghairati kho yao ta ye baqi kho khushal khan khattak na tar ajmal khattak baba pori mong tol beghairata yu!

And the Major General I don't know whether is a Khattak or not, but if he is, to me he is more of a Pakhtun with much amount of ghairat and pukhto than you could ever imagine.

Shahbaz, one of the Maliks of the Yargu Khel Wazirs was with me when meeting that high level Khattak.

You know what the Wazir said that insulted the Khattak? He said, "my grandfather used to say that the Khattaks were the best workers! They will break their back for their boss!"

The Khattak smiled and said "Oh Kakaa, how did your grandfather interact with Khattakaan?"

The Wazir smiled wryly and said "Son, your Khattakaan used to be a part of the British occupational force in my land! We say this because when the British colonel would give the order- the Khattak would run to get his chookaa and would give us the hardest and most CRUEL beating for his master... this is what made him a slave!"

Now, I felt embarrassed since both were my guests, and I felt that maybe the Wazir should not have said this so openly - but in a sense he was telling the truth.

Just a few days before the Khattak guy was bragging to me about how he was collecting information on world war II veterans from Pakistan. I asked him what he meant. He said "Oh Lala. it was glorious our grandfathers served the British and died standing against Hitler in Sudan!"

How goddamn embarrassing it was for me! So there is this guy, supposedly educated bragging about how some moron from the former NWFP went across the world to help one imperial white guy kill other imperial white guys and he DIED for this.

To make my point, I asked him if there were WWII graveyards like there are in American for these soldiers. His ears turned red and he said, "Oh Lala, since they endorsed shahadaat they were buried in Sudan"

Do you know what this means Shabaaz?

This means many Khattakaan have no idea where their grandfather is buried in Sudan and British simply buried their as-ses in mass graves like animals!

When they face the judgment throne, what are they going to say when God says to them:

God: So how did you die?
NWFP British era soldier: I died with shahadaat Spitzalaay Khodaay Paak!
God: So why did you not come to Heaven right away like a green bird of paradise like I said in my book? (rhetorical)
NWFP British era soldier: I don't know Khoday, why????
God: Because you idiot, you died for some man named Richard murdering some man named Otto.

And remember Khushaal Khan Khattak died very unhappy with his tribe and their following his son Bahram Khan Khattak.

He said:

The art of chieftainship thou hast not learned, bahram

in your time you have dishonored the chieftainship

from now on don't count yourself amongst my sons

that is the last prayer breathed by Khushal the Khatak

Let me show you a direct example of this sort of slavery. This is written by the descendent of Kuli Khan Khattak:

http://zeejah.tripod.com/khattaks.html

Look at how stupid this guy is. Bragging about his grand father's bravery. He doesn't understand that any smart reader will know his grandfather was an opportunist ******* who sold his own people. Here is the key sentence:

He had been given the title of Khan Bahadur by the British, but after the Independence of Pakistan, he returned all the titles and medals he had received as a British subject. In every prayer, after 14th. August 1947, he prayed for the restoration of Kashmir to Pakistan, SIX times a day!

So we are supposed to respect this guy because when his master got thrown out, he magically decided to return all the medals and titles? Look at his corrupt greasy face proudly wearing those British medals for doing their bidding:

http://zeejah.tripod.com/baba.jpg

Wearing all his medals like some super slave.

And now to show that this bloodline and character persists... here is his modern day descendant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Kuli_Khan_Khattak

In once case, I proved to you how

1) Khushal Khan would be proud of our criticism of these Bahram Khattak style people who have disgraced the Khattak name
2) Provided a clear example of one corrupt guy Kuli Khattak who was all too proud to go and help his masters in taming the FATA tribes and in sending his Khattak men to Sudan to die fighting Germans
3) His descendants are still in control and doing the same things today.