Dostum asks Turkic neighbours to establish Birlik Turkistan in northern Afghanistan

[Bengal_Tiger]

Do you know that all those Turkistanis and Dostumis have sent their children to Turkey where they get tought Pan-Turkism or that many private turkish schools and private universities spreak Turkish nationalism in Afghanistan? Do you know that right now Batur Dostum and his fellows are promoting among Turks and even among Hazara nationalists Pan-Turkism? Just read the article again what the author has written and you will understand the reality. Just some simple questions

- Hadn´t Dostum in the 90s established an independent Uzbek state with Balkh as his capital where his men looted and raped our people just for fun or being non-Uzbeks?

- Hadn´t Dostum own embassies in Middle East and Central Asia in the 90s not owned by Kabul???

- Hadn´t he close ties to Uzbekistan who supported him financially and political to promote Uzbekism in the region?

- What is right now Turkey´s role in Afghanistan among Uzbeks and Hazara factions?

- Do you know that the so called Fetullah Gulen movement is right now very active in Afghanistan private sectors? An nationalist organization using Islam for political Turkism?

- Have you visited ever on Facebook Dostumis pages and that of Hazara nationalists? Do you actually realize that all Uzbek and Hazara nationalist parties like Junbish Mili and Hizb-i-Wahdat are secularist-nationalist parties who work for independence?



...

You forget that 2.5-3 millon ethnic Turks is more than enough to establish a powerful state. You don´t even need 100 000 soldiers. As Dostum proved it in the past it is able to rule over a region beyond their own ethnic with only 50 000 men. Important is the transit points for supplies. Right now it seems many things is going to be repeated again. But people living in the west don´t know what is happening in Afghanistan.

Back in 1997 - the Dostumis/Turkistani nationalists around Dostum whom were in charge of Mazar and several northern provinces had in effect created a separate state. In Iran the official consulate of Afghanistan for Mashhad was ignored in favour of the JUNBESH (Uzbek/Turkistani Nationalist) CONSULATE.

Thanks for sharing information on the role of Turkey in this.

1. I knew a Kirghiz Muslim who told me there were Gulenists in his country and they told him that Turks (Turks, Uzbeks, Kirghiz) should be closer to each other than Arabs and other Muslims.

The Gulen movement is very nationalistic, whilst Islam calls for universal brotherhood.


2. Everything you have said above about Gulen, Turkey etc sounds totally true and the way they operate in other countries.

[Bengal_Tiger]

The neo-Uzbek elite is educated in Turkey or within Afghanistan by Turkish organizations in private Turkish schools and universities. You are right that other Turkish countries in central asia don´t care about Pan-Turkism but they take adventage of it in Afghanistan because the Uzbek and Turkmen, along some Hazara elites are believing in this crap and they diehard support it. The Russians also used their slavic brothers like Ukrainian people under the masque of Pan-Slavism. The same can be said about Pakistan. Panjabis use Pakistanism to milk non-Panjabis.

Whilst you wrote this post I was writing my previous one.


1. Pan-Turkism is a long-term threat to Afghan unity and stability. Turkey is an aggressive state with a super-power complex and wanting to throw its weight around.

I had no idea they were so aggressive in promoting Turkic nationalism in Afghanistan.

2. The Turks are also bullies who are intolerant of non-Turkic Muslim identity e.g. the Kurds in Turkey or the Pomaks (Slav Muslims) in Greece and Bulgaria. In Greece the Turks and Ankara try to force the Pomaks to call themselves "Turks".

3. In Crimea with the backing of Turkey, the Russians have offered to give 20% of parliament seats to around 13% Tatars (Turks) as well as make Tatar an official language.

This is Russia, a nuclear superpower, whereas Afghanistan is far from that.


4. The good thing is Turkey has no borders with Afghanistan.


5. Russia closed Gulen schools down, if Afghanistan can, I would advise you to do something similar.

I was told (not sure) Malaysia closed Gulenist schools down quite a few years ago because even non-Turkic Malaysia could not stand the extreme Turkophilia and love for Turkey (a foreign state) being taught in those schools. The threat is you may have a generation of Uzbeks who are Turk(ic) first and Afghan second.


Having said that I don't think there is any threat to the borders of the Afghan state. At the most Dostum could operate a Turkic fiefdom in northern Afghanistan, which would however have no internationally recognized borders.

I wish Afghans good luck.

[Bost Bastan News]

Whilst you wrote this post I was writing my previous one.


1. Pan-Turkism is a long-term threat to Afghan unity and stability. Turkey is an aggressive state with a super-power complex and wanting to throw its weight around.

I had no idea they were so aggressive in promoting Turkic nationalism in Afghanistan.

2. The Turks are also bullies who are intolerant of non-Turkic Muslim identity e.g. the Kurds in Turkey or the Pomaks (Slav Muslims) in Greece and Bulgaria. In Greece the Turks and Ankara try to force the Pomaks to call themselves "Turks".

3. In Crimea with the backing of Turkey, the Russians have offered to give 20% of parliament seats to around 13% Tatars (Turks) as well as make Tatar an official language.

This is Russia, a nuclear superpower, whereas Afghanistan is far from that.


4. The good thing is Turkey has no borders with Afghanistan.


5. Russia closed Gulen schools down, if Afghanistan can, I would advise you to do something similar.

I was told (not sure) Malaysia closed Gulenist schools down quite a few years ago because even non-Turkic Malaysia could not stand the extreme Turkophilia and love for Turkey (a foreign state) being taught in those schools.

I wish Afghans good luck.

We can´t close those schools and universities at the moment because it would close our ties to Turkey. Those institution don´t only teach about Turkism. They also teach some good things and educate some people. Beside that the NATO camp in Kabul is ran by Turks. Our diplomatic ties are very important at the moment but as long these institution exists new anti-Afghanistanists are breeding in hundreds if not in thousands who will share their pervert ideas with their fellows. Uzbek and Turkmen people are leadercentric people. They would even vote for a tree or a stone if Dostum orders them to do it

[pashtanajan]

Why is Sheberghan now Uzbeks property? 90years ago, 90% of them were given asylum by our people to settle there and flee from Soviets and now you want Afghan lands to give to original Tashkentis, Bukharians and Samarqandis? Hey, why don´t we give Herat to Iranians, Nimruz to Balochis, Kandahar to Pakistanis and Balkh to Tajikistanis??? What kind of logic is that?
@Hallo


Do you know that all those Turkistanis and Dostumis have sent their children to Turkey where they get tought Pan-Turkism or that many private turkish schools and private universities spreak Turkish nationalism in Afghanistan? Do you know that right now Batur Dostum and his fellows are promoting among Turks and even among Hazara nationalists Pan-Turkism? Just read the article again what the author has written and you will understand the reality. Just some simple questions

- Hadn´t Dostum in the 90s established an independent Uzbek state with Balkh as his capital where his men looted and raped our people just for fun or being non-Uzbeks?

- Hadn´t Dostum own embassies in Middle East and Central Asia in the 90s not owned by Kabul???

- Hadn´t he close ties to Uzbekistan who supported him financially and political to promote Uzbekism in the region?

- What is right now Turkey´s role in Afghanistan among Uzbeks and Hazara factions?

- Do you know that the so called Fetullah Gulen movement is right now very active in Afghanistan private sectors? An nationalist organization using Islam for political Turkism?

- Have you visited ever on Facebook Dostumis pages and that of Hazara nationalists? Do you actually realize that all Uzbek and Hazara nationalist parties like Junbish Mili and Hizb-i-Wahdat are secularist-nationalist parties who work for independence?

- Jabeh Mili, do you remember this party? Wasn´t this party demanding for system change from current government system to federalism? Jabhe Mili was and still is a Uzbek-Hazara nationalist party that even uses jerks like Ahmad Zia Massoud to fullfill their own political agenda of partition of Afghanistan. That´s why Zia Massoud´s own Tajik fellows just laughed about them. Just because Dostum is now on Ghani´s ticket it does not mean that he is still not running for Bilik Turkistan since Uzbekistan still regards Afghanistan´s Uzbeks as fundamentalists and very backward and savage. The article proves it. His son´s political organisations he presents on his own facebook profil as he shows this on General Rashid Dostum page

- Do you remember that three months ago the same Uzbeks (Dostumis) were demanding even by using profanity their ethnicity stating on the electronic ID cards?

- Dostum knows Pakistan and Pakistan´s slave is real. He knows Taliban are everywhere and they will go after him. Things won´t change so easily. Dostum always changed sides and he will do this again. Shortly after the election he will be again a different man

- Do you know that right now Dostum is busy in finishing his 30 000 men strong militia which regularely are attacking Pashtun villages? Right now they are looting our villages while at the same time he is a presidential candidate of Mr. Ghani.

- If this Dostumis (not ordinary Uzbek people who are nice and beautiful people) would believe in humanity or democracy we had already witness of it. In Afgahnistan we say the most savage (zalim) people are Uzbeks (meaning Ghlim Jamis).

You forget that 2.5-3 millon ethnic Turks is more than enough to establish a powerful state. You don´t even need 100 000 soldiers. As Dostum proved it in the past it is able to rule over a region beyond their own ethnic with only 50 000 men. Important is the transit points for supplies. Right now it seems many things is going to be repeated again. But people living in the west don´t know what is happening in Afghanistan.

Back in 1997 - the Dostumis/Turkistani nationalists around Dostum whom were in charge of Mazar and several northern provinces had in effect created a separate state. In Iran the official consulate of Afghanistan for Mashhad was ignored in favour of the JUNBESH (Uzbek/Turkistani Nationalist) CONSULATE.

In Mazar the Dostumis and the Wahdatis were enslaving the Pashtuns and Tajik oppositions and persecuting and abusing them. It was so bad that the resident were happy when the Taliban came and smashed up the Dostumis and Wahdatis. Instead of helping to fight the Taliban - these traitors were more motivated by Turkistanism - and they still are. Mazar has been promised to Dostum by Ashraf Ghani - in order to get votes of Uzbeks

I have a feeling that you're a Tajik, not that there's anything wrong with that. However, it's well-known that Uzbeks and Tajiks tend to clash in Northern provinces, and that Tajiks view the Turks in a negative light due to past history (the looting of Bukhara, etc. by Turkic forces). Hence, in Dari and Farsi you'll find a lot of derogatory words pertaining to those of Turkic ancestry, like Turk e char (stupid Turk).

Presently, the vast majority of Uzbeks and Hazaras do not belong to the aforementioned political organizations. Also, in Afghanistan, Uzbeks are Sunni and not Shia like Hazaras, so they intermingle more so with Sunni Pashtuns and Tajiks than Shia Hazaras, while Shia Hazaras feel more close to Shia Tajiks, etc. So why are you grouping these two groups together when they're vastly different in terms of culture, language, religion, and thus political ideologies. The only similarity between these two groups are their oriental features. All Turkic people are nationalists and not ethnocentric, because Turkic people is a gross generalization of different people. Pan-Turkism is like Pan-Iranism, and Pan-Iranists believe that all Iranic ethnic groups like Persians, Tajiks, Kurds, Balochis, Pashtuns should unite under a state called Iranzamin, Aryana, or what have you. Do you understand how unlikely the wishes of Pan-Iranians are? Pan-Turkism is similarly silly.

[Bengal_Tiger]

We can´t close those schools and universities at the moment because it would close our ties to Turkey. Those institution don´t only teach about Turkism. They also teach some good things and educate some people. Beside that the NATO camp in Kabul is ran by Turks. Our diplomatic ties are very important at the moment but as long these institution exists new anti-Afghanistanists are breeding in hundreds if not in thousands who will share their pervert ideas with their fellows. Uzbek and Turkmen people are leadercentric people. They would even vote for a tree or a stone if Dostum orders them to do it

- The Altaic races (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Turkic races) prioritize the collective above individuality. You are totally right, they follow their leaders. They are very cohesive and united.

- In Turkey each of the different camps idolizes their leaders. A few years ago TIME magazine ran a competition on a great world figure/leader, hundreds of thousands of Turks (Gulenists) voted for him en masse after being encouraged to do so. Gulen thus "won" this poll. The point is they have great cohesion and group unity.

The early Republican also idolized Ataturk even calling him akin to a God, quite literally.

Erdogan has also acquired a cult-like status amongst some, with shocking praise and adoration heaped on him.


- Yes, you cannot damage your relations with Turkey. However Erdogan intends to punish Gulen as Erdogan, winning the recent elections there has won their mini-civil war. Gulen is in a weak position now.

We have one Gulenist school in Bangladesh and I know generally their quality is very good, in many countries sons of politicians and the elite attend them.

- However in a diplomatic manner using excuses, prevent the growth and functioning of Gulenist schools. In the 80s the Pakistanis started many madrassas in the Pashtun areas of Pakistan and now you have the TTP who have killed 60,000 Pakistanis (mainly Pashtuns).

People would have dismissed those raised concerns about Deobandi madrassas mushrooming in Pakhtunkhwa in the 1990s as they will dismiss the pan-Turkist threat to Afghanistan now.


- By the way I know what I am talking about. Last year I spoke to a founder of the AKP party and former government minister who knew Erdogan, Erbakan, Gul etc personally. I won't say who, you can PM me.

Also some of the things you have mentioned in your earlier post shocked even me e.g. de facto embassies for Dostum abroad.

[Bost Bastan News]

Presently, the vast majority of Uzbeks and Hazaras do not belong to the aforementioned political organizations. Also, in Afghanistan, Uzbeks are Sunni and not Shia like Hazaras, so they intermingle more so with Sunni Pashtuns and Tajiks than Shia Hazaras, while Shia Hazaras feel more close to Shia Tajiks, etc. So why are you grouping these two groups together when they're vastly different in terms of culture, religion, and thus political ideologies. The only similarity between these two groups are their oriental features.

Hizb Wahdat and Junbish Mili are not Islamist parties. They are secularist-nationalist parties. They don´t care about sunni or shia issues. If you may remember they were allied in the 90s against Pashtuns, they were allied in post-2001 and they are allied now. They were always a united political group. You argue too naively. Jabhe Mili was a good example of these Turkistanis. They don´t see themselves as Hazaras or Uzbeks when it comes to ''we Turkistanis'' and ''them non-Turkistanis''. That´s what Mohsini (Hazara nationalist studied in Oxford) writes in his books. His theoretical works influenced very strong Wahdat. Hazaras and Uzbeks hate Tajiks and us. If Sunni and Shia isse would be a great thing for them they had already fought against eachother. Instead, they were supporting eachother in the 90s. You need to come first here to Afghanistan and see it with your own eyes. The Uzbeks have today only two political sides. The Islamist one and Junbish. There is no other political party working for their interests. The Hazaras have only one party and that is Wahdat, which was formed by original serveral Hazara parties to unify their strenghts and interests.

[Bost Bastan News]

- The Altaic races (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Turkic races) prioritize the collective above individuality. You are totally right, they follow their leaders. They are very cohesive and united.

- In Turkey each of the different camps idolizes their leaders. A few years ago TIME magazine ran a competition on a great world figure/leader, hundreds of thousands of Turks (Gulenists) voted for him en masse after being encouraged to do so. Gulen thus "won" this poll. The point is they have great cohesion and group unity.

The early Republican also idolized Ataturk even calling him akin to a God, quite literally.

Erdogan has also acquired a cult-like status amongst some, with shocking praise and adoration heaped on him.


- Yes, you cannot damage your relations with Turkey. However Erdogan intends to punish Gulen as Erdogan, winning the recent elections there has won their mini-civil war. Gulen is in a weak position now.

We have one Gulenist school in Bangladesh and I know generally their quality is very good, in many countries sons of politicians and the elite attend them.

- However in a diplomatic manner using excuses, prevent the growth and functioning of Gulenist schools. In the 80s the Pakistanis started many madrassas in the Pashtun areas of Pakistan and now you have the TTP who have killed 60,000 Pakistanis (mainly Pashtuns).

People would have dismissed those raised concerns about Deobandi madrassas mushrooming in Pakhtunkhwa in the 1990s as they will dismiss the pan-Turkist threat to Afghanistan now.


- By the way I know what I am talking about. Last year I spoke to a founder of the AKP party and former government minister who knew Erdogan, Erbakan, Gul etc personally. I won't say who, you can PM me.

Also some of the things you have mentioned in your earlier post shocked even me e.g. de facto embassies for Dostum abroad.

Dostum is already a god-like human-beings for 60% of Uzbeks. Only the Islamists and anti-Secularists are against him.

[Bengal_Tiger]

[MENTION=17133]Bost Bastan News[/MENTION]

How does Turkey get the Hazaras involved in pan-Turkism?

As far as I know Hazaras are Mongoloid (alleged descendants of Genghis Khan according to some), Farsi-speaking Shia.

I do know some Turkic nationalists claim Mongols as Turks or as a sister race.

Hasn't Iran lost out if Shia Hazaras place greater allegiance to Sunni/secular Turkey over Shia Iran?

[pashtanajan]

Dostum is already a god-like human-beings for 60% of Uzbeks. Only the Islamists and anti-Secularists are against him.

Where are you getting your percentages from?

Saying %60 of uzbeks are in favour of Dostum is like saying %60 of Pashtuns are in favour of the Taliban.

Do you realize how divided the Jumbish are amongst each other? Forces within the Jumbish often defect and join other groups, and rivalry amongst these different groups are common (the assassination of Pahlawan is an example). They're anything but strongly united.

[Bost Bastan News]

@Bost Bastan News

How does Turkey get the Hazaras involved in pan-Turkism?

As far as I know Hazaras are Mongoloid (alleged descendants of Genghis Khan according to some), Farsi-speaking Shia.

I do know some Turkic nationalists claim Mongols as Turks or as a sister race.

Hasn't Iran lost out if Shia Hazaras place greater allegiance to Sunni/secular Turkey over Shia Iran?

Pan-Turkist not only call Hazaras as ''Persianized'' Turks but also Tajiks and all white people and ancient human civilisations as Turkish. The last time I saw a scholaric work on Hazaras it was states that the Mongol element among Hazaras is weak but more the Turkish ones are very strong. Many of modern Hazaras came with Taimur Lang to Afghanistan. You know?

[HalloIsBack]

if it's true then pashtuns will have their loy pashtunistan

the article was published on march 10 2014. why do you post it now few days before election?

[HalloIsBack]

you live in kabul
in few hours you have to get up for the first pray
go to bed

[Bost Bastan News]

Where are you getting your percentages from?

We have an electronic table in our office showing us a map of all districts of Afghanistan. When you click on one district it shows the number of people living there and whom they support. You can chose for every party dominating a region and people special colour. So it shows you how strong a party is and by how many people the party is supported.

[HalloIsBack]

A better solution would be to send these turko mongols back to kazakhastan and mongolia where they originally come from.

This is a issue between tajiks and uzbeks, pashtuns couldn't care less about northern afghanistan.

as i know the turkic people are actualyl from siberia

[Bengal_Tiger]

Pan-Turkist not only call Hazaras as ''Persianized'' Turks but also Tajiks and all white people and ancient human civilisations as Turkish. The last time I saw a scholaric work on Hazaras it was states that the Mongol element among Hazaras is weak but more the Turkish ones are very strong. Many of modern Hazaras came with Taimur Lang to Afghanistan. You know?

There are different theories on the Hazara, some even say it comes from the word "thousand" (hazar, same word in Bangla) as they were allegedly a thousand remaining warriors of Genghis Khan in Afghanistan.

So Turkey has won against Iran in the battle for Hazara loyalties?

How did they do that? Forget about doubtful historical claims why does the ordinary Hazara in Afghanistan prefer Turkey to Iran?

- Iran has the same religion/sect

- Iran has the same language

- Iran has a border

If Turkey has indeed won the hearts of the Hazara, this is quite an impressive achievement.