Symbolic And Nominal Islam: Reinstating Public Stoning for Adultery

[Loy Afghanistan]

refering to Pakistan as napakistan doesn't make it that, it's ironic coming from an Afghan cause Afghanistan isn't any better than Pakistan, I don't even want to turn this into a Pakistani vs Afghan thread, lets just stick to the topic.

P.S I've got many Pakhtun friends that are proud Pakistanis.

I didn't knew Pashtun and Kurds had the same popular, identity crisis. I thought there was a great law in Pashtunwali and Pashtun culture, that it is not allowed for a Pashtun to call him/herself anything else rather than Pashtun. Is this not true? People that say I am American Pashtun, I am Pakistani Pashtun, I am Turkish Pashtun, Arabic Pashtun etc, that sounds to me like a real insecure human being. I heard that in the past people like these would be called haramzada, get outcast by their tribe/family or from the Pashtun society. But hey, I am just referring to Pashtun identity, nothing more.

[randolph85]

I don't think it would be a good idea to publicly murder adulterers and flog fornicators, I think it would actually give Islam a bad name, because Islam is a religion of peace but by giving barbaric punishments like these it reasserts the violent stereotypes of us Muslims.

give islam a bad name? to who, non muslims? this is not a popularity contest. islam is a religion of justice, not peace. it seems you would rather please the perceptions of kaffirs than accept shariah, would you also bleach your skin if non brownies found you to be dirty? a barbaric punishment fits the barbaric crime.

I think there should be an alternative punishment, or just decriminalize adultery and leave it for Allah for decide whether somebody should be punished or not.

Afghanistan has much bigger problems then extra-marital sex, it needs to focus on it's REAL problems.

why not just decriminalize other moral crimes while we are at it? let me go to islamabad and walk around butt naked telling all the ignorant peons that "only god can judge me"

afghanistans problems stem from social problems, its not like the justice system can only deal with 1 problem at a time. imagine a police force that focused only on car theft but no other crime.

[Badlun]

a barbaric punishment fits the barbaric crime.

Please sit for a while calm and tranquil and ponder over the following whether it is really a barbaric crime to steal a quarter of a dinar, or a full dinar, or an egg, or a rope, or a shield to amputate a hand with all the 5 fingers?

Do you think it is human and humane? Dont you think all these hadiths are fabricated and the verse in Quran for amputation is metaphorical and figurative not literal.

“The hand (of the thief) should be cut off for (the theft of) a quarter of a Dinar or more.” [Al-Bukhaari]

“May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.” [Al-Bukhaari]

Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim (Hadeeth collection): Al-Shaafa'i, Abu Haneefah, Maalik and the majority (of scholars) said: "The hand should be cut off from the wrist, where the hand meets the forearm." Al-Qurtubi said: "All the scholars said: The hand should be cut off from the wrist, not as some of the innovators do when they cut off the fingers and leave the thumb."

The ruling of theft in Islam - Islam web - English

He steals equivalent to the amount (nisab) or more. The Nisab is one Dinar or ten Dirhams (i.e. 4.374 grams of gold). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

There is no cutting (of hands) for stealing that is less then ten Dirhams (Musnad Ahmad).

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that: The hand of a thief was not cut off during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) except for stealing something equal to a shield in value (Sahih al-Bukhari, 6792, & Sahih Muslim, 1685).

A shield was worth one Dinar at that time, as narrated by Ibn Abbas in Sunan Abu Dawud & Sunan Nasa
The Legal Penalty for Stealing

[KGODB]

“The hand (of the thief) should be cut off for (the theft of) a quarter of a Dinar or more.” [Al-Bukhaari]

“May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.” [Al-Bukhaari]

Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim (Hadeeth collection): Al-Shaafa'i, Abu Haneefah, Maalik and the majority (of scholars) said: "The hand should be cut off from the wrist, where the hand meets the forearm." Al-Qurtubi said: "All the scholars said: The hand should be cut off from the wrist, not as some of the innovators do when they cut off the fingers and leave the thumb."

The ruling of theft in Islam - Islam web - English

He steals equivalent to the amount (nisab) or more. The Nisab is one Dinar or ten Dirhams (i.e. 4.374 grams of gold). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

There is no cutting (of hands) for stealing that is less then ten Dirhams (Musnad Ahmad).

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that: The hand of a thief was not cut off during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) except for stealing something equal to a shield in value (Sahih al-Bukhari, 6792, & Sahih Muslim, 1685).

A shield was worth one Dinar at that time, as narrated by Ibn Abbas in Sunan Abu Dawud & Sunan Nasa
The Legal Penalty for Stealing

such a savage law

[EvilPakistani]

[MENTION=1902]randolph85[/MENTION]

give islam a bad name? to who, non muslims? this is not a popularity contest. islam is a religion of justice, not peace. it seems you would rather please the perceptions of kaffirs than accept shariah, would you also bleach your skin if non brownies found you to be dirty? a barbaric punishment fits the barbaric crime.

Islam is a religion of peace, or you saying that Islam is a violent religion?Most non-Muslims have a very negative perception of Islam, and that's mainly because of the way us Muslims practice Islam, if you want to come to Islam, then you have to make it seem that it is a peaceful religion that is followed by rational people.

Just like [MENTION=1034]Badlun[/MENTION] said, don't you think those verses in the Qur'an about the punishments are symbolic or metaphorical instead of literal, and don't you think we should interpret the Quran within a 21st century context, because our circumstances have changed A LOT, life now is nothing like it was in 7th century Arabia, before you respond just try to think it through.

why not just decriminalize other moral crimes while we are at it? let me go to islamabad and walk around butt naked telling all the ignorant peons that "only god can judge me"

Your reasoning is dumb, walking around butt naked in public is illegal all over the world, but walking around butt naked in your home is not, same way having sex in public is a crime all over the world, but nobody cares if you do it in your personal space, you're saying that having extra-marital sex is immoral and I agree with that, but morality is subjective, your moral views are not necessarily the same as somebody elses, now people all over the world do agree that murder and theft are immoral, these are universal crimes, but "crimes" like adultery aren't necessarily seen the sameway.

I'm not supportive of zina, but I don't think flogging somebody in public for it or stoning somebody to death for it is reasonable or Islamic and I'm sure the Quran would support, me because Allah is the most merciful and he is the sole judge of the universe, nobody can take his place, that's why he made convicting somebody for zina almost impossible, because you need 4 male witnesses that saw full frontal penetration(anal,oral or anyother position isn't enough to prove), and it is next to impossible to prove that unless you saw it on redtube.

So lets just leave it to God to punish anybody for these sins.

afghanistans problems stem from social problems, its not like the justice system can only deal with 1 problem at a time. imagine a police force that focused only on car theft but no other crime.

extra-marital sex isn't the biggest moral crime in Afghanistan(heck isn't even that common in most strict Islamic countries), the biggest threat to Afghan society and Muslim countries in general is terrorism,drug abuse,radicalism,honor killings,female genital mutilation,forced marriages,illiteracy,poverty,unemployment,corrupti on,justice etc

You should be focused on eradicating those problems first, unfortunately most religious parties only care about "moral corruption" and not the other problems their people face, because to them everything wrong in the world is tied down to sex and a woman's body.

[EvilPakistani]

[MENTION=1902]randolph85[/MENTION]

give islam a bad name? to who, non muslims? this is not a popularity contest. islam is a religion of justice, not peace. it seems you would rather please the perceptions of kaffirs than accept shariah, would you also bleach your skin if non brownies found you to be dirty? a barbaric punishment fits the barbaric crime.

Islam is a religion of peace, or you saying that Islam is a violent religion?Most non-Muslims have a very negative perception of Islam, and that's mainly because of the way us Muslims practice Islam, if you want to come to Islam, then you have to make it seem that it is a peaceful religion that is followed by rational people.

Just like [MENTION=1034]Badlun[/MENTION] said, don't you think those verses in the Qur'an about the punishments are symbolic or metaphorical instead of literal, and don't you think we should interpret the Quran within a 21st century context, because our circumstances have changed A LOT, life now is nothing like it was in 7th century Arabia, before you respond just try to think it through.

why not just decriminalize other moral crimes while we are at it? let me go to islamabad and walk around butt naked telling all the ignorant peons that "only god can judge me"

Your reasoning is dumb, walking around butt naked in public is illegal all over the world, but walking around butt naked in your home is not, same way having sex in public is a crime all over the world, but nobody cares if you do it in your personal space, you're saying that having extra-marital sex is immoral and I agree with that, but morality is subjective, your moral views are not necessarily the same as somebody elses, now people all over the world do agree that murder and theft are immoral, these are universal crimes, but "crimes" like adultery aren't necessarily seen the sameway.

I'm not supportive of zina, but I don't think flogging somebody in public for it or stoning somebody to death for it is reasonable or Islamic and I'm sure the Quran would support, me because Allah is the most merciful and he is the sole judge of the universe, nobody can take his place, that's why he made convicting somebody for zina almost impossible, because you need 4 male witnesses that saw full frontal penetration(anal,oral or anyother position isn't enough to prove), and it is next to impossible to prove that unless you saw it on redtube.

So lets just leave it to God to punish anybody for these sins.

afghanistans problems stem from social problems, its not like the justice system can only deal with 1 problem at a time. imagine a police force that focused only on car theft but no other crime.

extra-marital sex isn't the biggest moral crime in Afghanistan(heck isn't even that common in most strict Islamic countries), the biggest threat to Afghan society and Muslim countries in general is terrorism,drug abuse,radicalism,honor killings,female genital mutilation,forced marriages,illiteracy,poverty,unemployment,corrupti on,justice etc

You should be focused on eradicating those problems first, unfortunately most religious parties only care about "moral corruption" and not the other problems their people face, because to them everything wrong in the world is tied down to sex and a woman's body.

[EvilPakistani]

[MENTION=1902]randolph85[/MENTION]

give islam a bad name? to who, non muslims? this is not a popularity contest. islam is a religion of justice, not peace. it seems you would rather please the perceptions of kaffirs than accept shariah, would you also bleach your skin if non brownies found you to be dirty? a barbaric punishment fits the barbaric crime.

Islam is a religion of peace, or you saying that Islam is a violent religion?Most non-Muslims have a very negative perception of Islam, and that's mainly because of the way us Muslims practice Islam, if you want to come to Islam, then you have to make it seem that it is a peaceful religion that is followed by rational people.

Just like [MENTION=1034]Badlun[/MENTION] said, don't you think those verses in the Qur'an about the punishments are symbolic or metaphorical instead of literal, and don't you think we should interpret the Quran within a 21st century context, because our circumstances have changed A LOT, life now is nothing like it was in 7th century Arabia, before you respond just try to think it through.

why not just decriminalize other moral crimes while we are at it? let me go to islamabad and walk around butt naked telling all the ignorant peons that "only god can judge me"

Your reasoning is dumb, walking around butt naked in public is illegal all over the world, but walking around butt naked in your home is not, same way having sex in public is a crime all over the world, but nobody cares if you do it in your personal space, you're saying that having extra-marital sex is immoral and I agree with that, but morality is subjective, your moral views are not necessarily the same as somebody elses, now people all over the world do agree that murder and theft are immoral, these are universal crimes, but "crimes" like adultery aren't necessarily seen the sameway.

I'm not supportive of zina, but I don't think flogging somebody in public for it or stoning somebody to death for it is reasonable or Islamic and I'm sure the Quran would support, me because Allah is the most merciful and he is the sole judge of the universe, nobody can take his place, that's why he made convicting somebody for zina almost impossible, because you need 4 male witnesses that saw full frontal penetration(anal,oral or anyother position isn't enough to prove), and it is next to impossible to prove that unless you saw it on redtube.

So lets just leave it to God to punish anybody for these sins.

afghanistans problems stem from social problems, its not like the justice system can only deal with 1 problem at a time. imagine a police force that focused only on car theft but no other crime.

extra-marital sex isn't the biggest moral crime in Afghanistan(heck isn't even that common in most strict Islamic countries), the biggest threat to Afghan society and Muslim countries in general is terrorism,drug abuse,radicalism,honor killings,female genital mutilation,forced marriages,illiteracy,poverty,unemployment,corrupti on,justice etc

You should be focused on eradicating those problems first, unfortunately most religious parties only care about "moral corruption" and not the other problems their people face, because to them everything wrong in the world is tied down to sex and a woman's body.

[jankhan]

Badlun says that verses in the Quran regarding punishments are metaphoric and should not be taken as literal. If its taken true then anyone can say that the whole quran is nothing real but a metaphor full of just stories. Then no God exists no angels no paradise no hell no Adam a.s etc etc.
Actually you want to treat with the Quran the way the Christians have done with their bible. In your view secularism and what the secularists say is true and quran is just a book stories. if it was just a book of stories then there was no need to send it for us because we already had a book of stories like bible.

[Badlun]

such a savage law

This is what we will see and saw under Taliban or any Wahabi regime in Somalia or Nigeria or Mali! they consider it Kufr if words of Quran and Hadith are not promulgated word by word.

For an egg or for a rope or quarter of dinar they will start cutting hands and very soon many will wander in streets without hands and feet. I have read somewhere that if you cut one hand, then second hand, then feet and after that I do not know what, may be the neck!

Those who say that if there is poverty then such punishments are not implemented but at least everywhere there can be an egg or rope or a shield or a quarter of dinar , so the poverty standard is very low.

[Badlun]

Badlun says that verses in the Quran regarding punishments are metaphoric and should not be taken as literal. If its taken true then anyone can say that the whole quran is nothing real but a metaphor full of just stories. Then no God exists no angels no paradise no hell no Adam a.s etc etc.
Actually you want to treat with the Quran the way the Christians have done with their bible. In your view secularism and what the secularists say is true and quran is just a book stories. if it was just a book of stories then there was no need to send it for us because we already had a book of stories like bible.

Quran itself says that there are allegorical/figurative/metaphorical verses

'He it is who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the book: others are allegorical, that is those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will grasp the message except men of understanding' (Al-Qur'an 3: 7).

Muhkama are verses which are about the fundamentals of Islam(beliefs, prayers, fasting, hajj, zakat and morality. these have one dimension and ssomething sufficient in meaning, requiring no further explanation. For example God is one, there is a life after death,one should offer prayers or no one should steal or tell lie.



Mutashabihat have more than on dimension and which requires further explanation. For example it is clear that one should not steal but the word Cutting off the hand is a metaphor which means stop the thief not literally cut off his/her hand.


Quran does not give details of the definition and quantity of theft but as it is a moral injunction to stop theft, it mentions it. Quran is a book of religion and not a penal or criminal code. It is up to the legislature and judiciary to define theft and codify its punishment.

[jankhan]

Quran itself says that there are allegorical/figurative/metaphorical verses

'He it is who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the book: others are allegorical, that is those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will grasp the message except men of understanding' (Al-Qur'an 3: 7).

Muhkama are verses which are about the fundamentals of Islam(beliefs, prayers, fasting, hajj, zakat and morality. these have one dimension and ssomething sufficient in meaning, requiring no further explanation. For example God is one, there is a life after death,one should offer prayers or no one should steal or tell lie.



Mutashabihat have more than on dimension and which requires further explanation. For example it is clear that one should not steal but the word Cutting off the hand is a metaphor which means stop the thief not literally cut off his/her hand.


Quran does not give details of the definition and quantity of theft but as it is a moral injunction to stop theft, it mentions it. Quran is a book of religion and not a penal or criminal code. It is up to the legislature and judiciary to define theft and codify its punishment.

Aaah ok. Then who will decide what is literal and what metaphor ? The majority of Muslims scholars have ijmah on these punishments then who are you to tell us that there is no punishment in the quran ? What is your academic qualification in this regard.
Badlun, why do you not interpret the quran by yourself. Believe me it will be a big service for the humanity. Rather than spending time here on internet you should start interpreting the quran and publish it i am sure you have enough finances and spread your copies of interpretation in the whole Muslim world.

[ډګروال]

Aaah ok. Then who will decide what is literal and what metaphor ? The majority of Muslims scholars have ijmah on these punishments then who are you to tell us that there is no punishment in the quran ? What is your academic qualification in this regard.
Badlun, why do you not interpret the quran by yourself. Believe me it will be a big service for the humanity. Rather than spending time here on internet you should start interpreting the quran and publish it i am sure you have enough finances and spread your copies of interpretation in the whole Muslim world.

why are you even responding to this donkey?

he s a liar ,not a muslim or pashtun.

[randolph85]

[MENTION=1902]randolph85[/MENTION]


Islam is a religion of peace, or you saying that Islam is a violent religion?Most non-Muslims have a very negative perception of Islam, and that's mainly because of the way us Muslims practice Islam, if you want to come to Islam, then you have to make it seem that it is a peaceful religion that is followed by rational people.


Islam encompasses all aspects of the human condition, peace and violence. In Islam it is clear that when there is no justice then there is no peace. Again, why are you concerned about the way Islam is portrayed to non Muslims? we don't "have to make it seem" like it is something that it is not. The word of God is not all roses and violets, its peace and war, love and punishment.

Just like [MENTION=1034]Badlun[/MENTION] said, don't you think those verses in the Qur'an about the punishments are symbolic or metaphorical instead of literal, and don't you think we should interpret the Quran within a 21st century context, because our circumstances have changed A LOT, life now is nothing like it was in 7th century Arabia, before you respond just try to think it through.

How is it symbolic when these punishments were practiced by the Prophet and the Sahaba? You already mention that there are conditions of finding someone guilty of adultery, are these detailed conditions also metaphorical? gimme a break, dude. Because we wear blue jeans and have ipads now we should somehow substitute the words of God for something that man arrogantly thinks is better? What things have changed that the law of God is now obsolete? So far all you have given to me is that you are concerned about the perceptions of Kaffirs.






Your reasoning is dumb, walking around butt naked in public is illegal all over the world, but walking around butt naked in your home is not, same way having sex in public is a crime all over the world, but nobody cares if you do it in your personal space, you're saying that having extra-marital sex is immoral and I agree with that, but morality is subjective, your moral views are not necessarily the same as somebody elses, now people all over the world do agree that murder and theft are immoral, these are universal crimes, but "crimes" like adultery aren't necessarily seen the sameway.

I can tell you for a fact that walking around naked is not illegal in San Francisco or New York City, I am sure it is legal in most other US cities also. I don't see what your point is here, yes most Kaffirs don't care about adultery but we already knew that, so...?

I'm not supportive of zina, but I don't think flogging somebody in public for it or stoning somebody to death for it is reasonable or Islamic and I'm sure the Quran would support, me because Allah is the most merciful and he is the sole judge of the universe, nobody can take his place, that's why he made convicting somebody for zina almost impossible, because you need 4 male witnesses that saw full frontal penetration(anal,oral or anyother position isn't enough to prove), and it is next to impossible to prove that unless you saw it on redtube.

So lets just leave it to God to punish anybody for these sins.

Again here you are looking foolish because you concede that there are conditions for being found guilty as prescribed by the Quran but somehow you don't believe in the punishment prescribed by the same Quran in the event that someone is found guilty? wtf?


extra-marital sex isn't the biggest moral crime in Afghanistan(heck isn't even that common in most strict Islamic countries), the biggest threat to Afghan society and Muslim countries in general is terrorism,drug abuse,radicalism,honor killings,female genital mutilation,forced marriages,illiteracy,poverty,unemployment,corrupti on,justice etc

You should be focused on eradicating those problems first, unfortunately most religious parties only care about "moral corruption" and not the other problems their people face, because to them everything wrong in the world is tied down to sex and a woman's body.

What is your point? There are a plethora of social issues that need to be addressed, no one said adultery is the biggest problem in the country but this is what the thread is concerning. All you did was list a bunch of things that stem from social and moral deficiencies. The fact that you narrow this down to women shows your bias as this punishment is applicable to both women and men.