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Symbolic And Nominal Islam: Reinstating Public Stoning for Adultery

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  • Symbolic And Nominal Islam: Reinstating Public Stoning for Adultery

    Afghanistan Considers Reinstating Public Stoning for Adultery - WSJ.com

    KABUL—The Afghan government said Monday it was considering a draft proposal that would impose public stoning to death as a punishment for adultery, raising concerns about backsliding on human rights that could imperil foreign aid to the country.

    The proposed measure, first disclosed by advocacy group Human Rights Watch, would restore the Taliban-era punishment for men and women who have extramarital affairs. According to a version of the draft viewed by The Wall Street Journal, another harsh punishment—public lashing—would be meted out to single men and women who have sex outside marriage.

    Abdul Raouf Brahawee, director of legislation at the Afghan Ministry of Justice, confirmed that the measure was being considered by a working group that is revamping the country's penal code. He defended stoning for adulterers as consistent with Islamic law.

    "The Islamic Sharia instructs us to do so," Mr. Brahawee said. "There is a verse in the Quran about it."

    Mr. Brahawee added that the proposed change to the penal code hasn't yet been finalized. "The draft is not finalized yet, and we are not satisfied with it," he said.

    The restoration of public stoning would hearken back to the brutal days of the Taliban regime. During their rule, the Taliban imposed a harsh version of Islamic justice, including public executions for murder, adultery and other crimes.

    "Stoning is of such symbolic significance in Afghanistan," said Heather Barr, senior researcher at Human Rights Watch. "It's almost a trademark for the Taliban regime."

    Ms. Barr said the proposal is "part of a broader pattern of setbacks for women and rollbacks of women's rights," including a recent push to lawmakers to dilute a law on violence against women.

    Massouda Jalal, a women's rights activist who previously headed the country's Ministry of Women's Affairs, said such a proposal would be in violation of the Afghan constitution, which contains guarantees for human rights.

    Women often bear the brunt of traditional justice in Afghanistan. Last year, a woman accused of adultery in Parwan province, north of the capital, was publicly shot to death. Human rights advocates also say women are often jailed for "moral crimes," such as fleeing forced marriages or domestic abuse.

    "This move by the government is meant to weaken Afghan women, and it opens the way for extremist groups and opportunists to try to put Afghan women in a corner," Ms. Jalal said.

    The Afghan presidential palace couldn't be immediately reached for comment. The U.S. Embassy in Kabul declined to comment immediately because officials were studying details of the draft proposal.

    Enactment and enforcement of such a law would potentially imperil international aid to the country, which depends on foreign donors to pay for its army and police. As a condition for receiving continued foreign aid, the Afghan government pledged at an international conference last year to meet commitments on human rights.

    A senior Western official said any move to reinstate stonings would be "very unwise" for the Afghan government.

    "We need to find out exactly what the facts are," the official said, saying that the language in the proposal was still being studied. "If they are proven right, I think there will be a strong reaction from the international community. It's a symbol that we are going back to the Taliban times."

    Write to Nathan Hodge at nathan.hodge@wsj.com
    Originally posted by Firdousi
    Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

  • #2
    Musicians, TV channels, movies and other such elements promote immorality.

    A true Islamic government should remove those things that promote immorality before applying punishments.

    Its the same with theft. If people steal because of poverty, you can't go and chop off their hands. You need to give poor people access to food so that they are not forced to steal.

    Similarly, you have to ban all those channels and retailers of immorality. Movies, videos, music everything that promotes immorality must be banned.

    Likewise parents who demand allot of money as dowry should be punished.

    Once you have taken such measures, people won't fornicate as much as they do now. Then you can punish people by stoning.

    But none of this is going to happen for as long as we have a puppet regime of criminals and occupation by the Jews and Christians.
    Originally posted by Firdousi
    Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

    Comment


    • #3
      I've never been anywhere in Afghanistan where adultery won't get you killed--whether you're the woman or the man who slept with a married woman.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wowra View Post
        I've never been anywhere in Afghanistan where adultery won't get you killed--whether you're the woman or the man who slept with a married woman.
        You are wrong. In most cases, rich powerful men can do anything they desire without any problems.

        The clientele of Kabul and Mazars brothels are not all single men. The prostitutes may be unmarried but most of their clients are married men.

        Likewise, sodomites are not killed. They roam around freely.

        I have yet to see a sodomite being killed in recen history.
        Originally posted by Firdousi
        Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't think it would be a good idea to publicly murder adulterers and flog fornicators, I think it would actually give Islam a bad name, because Islam is a religion of peace but by giving barbaric punishments like these it reasserts the violent stereotypes of us Muslims.

          We need to interpret the Qur'an and Hadiths within the context of the 21st century, Islam does allow ijtihad.

          In order to punish somebody for adultery you have to have at least 4 male witnesses that saw the act happen, in fact they need to see penetration in order to prove that the accused have committed adultery; people in this day and age don't have intercourse in public, so it's impossible to produce 4 male witnesses that saw penetration, unless it was recorded on camera.

          I think there should be an alternative punishment, or just decriminalize adultery and leave it for Allah for decide whether somebody should be punished or not.

          Afghanistan has much bigger problems then extra-marital sex, it needs to focus on it's REAL problems.

          peace.
          "If you're not ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary." -Malcolm X

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by EvilPakistani View Post
            I don't think it would be a good idea to publicly murder adulterers and flog fornicators, I think it would actually give Islam a bad name, because Islam is a religion of peace but by giving barbaric punishments like these it reasserts the violent stereotypes of us Muslims.

            We need to interpret the Qur'an and Hadiths within the context of the 21st century, Islam does allow ijtihad.

            In order to punish somebody for adultery you have to have at least 4 male witnesses that saw the act happen, in fact they need to see penetration in order to prove that the accused have committed adultery; people in this day and age don't have intercourse in public, so it's impossible to produce 4 male witnesses that saw penetration, unless it was recorded on camera.

            I think there should be an alternative punishment, or just decriminalize adultery and leave it for Allah for decide whether somebody should be punished or not.

            Afghanistan has much bigger problems then extra-marital sex, it needs to focus on it's REAL problems.

            peace.
            Ijtihaad is in matters where there is no clear and unambigious ruling in Quran and Sunnah. For example: smoking cigarettes is not mentioned in Quran, however, a scholar can do ijtihad and derive a ruling based on principles of Shariah. Therefore, scholars say that smoking is haram because it harms the health and harming ones own health is a sin, therefore, smoking is prohibited.

            With regards to stoning, there is clear and unambigious verse in Quran regarding stoning. Plus, the Prophet Muhammad sal allahu alayhi wasalam applied this punishment on adulterers.

            Therefore there is a consensus among all 4 school of Fiqh as reported in al Mughni by ibn Qudamah.

            Who-ever denies stoning as part of Islam or hates it or thinks Islam will look bad in the eyes of kaafirs will become an apostate. Because hating something established in Islam is apostasy.
            Originally posted by Firdousi
            Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Shamlawar Khurasani View Post
              Ijtihaad is in matters where there is no clear and unambigious ruling in Quran and Sunnah. For example: smoking cigarettes is not mentioned in Quran, however, a scholar can do ijtihad and derive a ruling based on principles of Shariah. Therefore, scholars say that smoking is haram because it harms the health and harming ones own health is a sin, therefore, smoking is prohibited.

              With regards to stoning, there is clear and unambigious verse in Quran regarding stoning. Plus, the Prophet Muhammad sal allahu alayhi wasalam applied this punishment on adulterers.

              Therefore there is a consensus among all 4 school of Fiqh as reported in al Mughni by ibn Qudamah.

              Who-ever denies stoning as part of Islam or hates it or thinks Islam will look bad in the eyes of kaafirs will become an apostate. Because hating something established in Islam is apostasy.
              I get your point but you forgot that in order to prove extra-marital sex you must have at least 4 male witnesses that saw PENETRATION, that's nearly impossible to prove.

              You need to understand that circumstances have changed drastically in 1400 years, before in the Prophets time it was common for children to get married as soon as they reached puberty, but today it's illegal to get married under 18, so what is a hormone-raging teenager supposed to do>?fap all day?

              Even after 18, most parents don't let their sons get married until they get a degree and a job and settle down, which usually happens in their late 20s or early 30s, so is a guy supposed to suppress his sexual desires for that long?We live in difficult times, everythings hypersexualized, and it's very different from 7th century arabia.

              So you need to understand Islam within a historical and cultural context.
              "If you're not ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary." -Malcolm X

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by EvilPakistani View Post
                I get your point but you forgot that in order to prove extra-marital sex you must have at least 4 male witnesses that saw PENETRATION, that's nearly impossible to prove.
                I did not forget it.

                But what you are saying is that Allah revealed something in Quran and the Prophet sal allahu alayhi wasalam did it but it is actually void because it is virtually impossible to apply since you can't find 4 witnesses who have seen penetration.

                How about confession? In most cases, there is either rape, or a confession before stoning.

                Don't have illusions. Islamic law is not void or theoretical. It is practical.

                You need to understand that circumstances have changed drastically in 1400 years, before in the Prophets time it was common for children to get married as soon as they reached puberty, but today it's illegal to get married under 18, so what is a hormone-raging teenager supposed to do>?fap all day?
                The Islamic law is not changed. 5 times praying was obligatory 1400 years ago, and it is still the same. Likewise, any other part of the law still remains the same. No matter what people do, the law is there to correct them. We are not here to correct the law.



                Even after 18, most parents don't let their sons get married until they get a degree and a job and settle down, which usually happens in their late 20s or early 30s, so is a guy supposed to suppress his sexual desires for that long?We live in difficult times, everythings hypersexualized, and it's very different from 7th century arabia.
                Its peoples problem. They should change their way of life so that it fits the Islamic requirements. Not the other way around.

                You obviously don't understand why we have a religion and a law. The purpose of revelation is to show you what to do, it is not there for you to get creative wit.
                Originally posted by Firdousi
                Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                Comment


                • #9
                  a snake will always show it split tong, no matter how much it wil try to hide it lol

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    @Shamlawar-Khurasani:
                    How about confession? In most cases, there is either rape, or a confession before stoning.
                    Why would anybody want to confess to a crime that could cost them their life and integrity?and confessions aren't always solid proof because people can also be coerced(pressured) into confessing for certain reasons, the people accusing the person of zina could try to trap that person, so you shouldn't rely on confessions only, forensic evidence maybe more accurate but it still doesn't prove consent.

                    The Islamic law is not changed. 5 times praying was obligatory 1400 years ago, and it is still the same. Likewise, any other part of the law still remains the same. No matter what people do, the law is there to correct them. We are not here to correct the law.
                    Praying 5 times a day is a pillar of Islam, but stoning somebody for zina isn't a pillar, it's part of Sharia and depending on certain circumstance you can reinterpret it, the Qur'an mentions that adulterers should be stoned, but it also mentions 4 male witnesses, so that verse it more symbolic, it's trying to warn Muslims of committing such a grave sin but that since it's almost impossible to prove zina, you should leave it to Allah almighty to decide and punish, we can't take his place, we can't make error-free judgments as grave zina.

                    Its peoples problem. They should change their way of life so that it fits the Islamic requirements. Not the other way around.

                    You obviously don't understand why we have a religion and a law. The purpose of revelation is to show you what to do, it is not there for you to get creative wit.
                    You still didn't answer any of my questions, if you want to go back to 7th century arabia then lets allow kids to get married and Muslim men should be allowed to own concubines.

                    P.S are you a salafist?
                    "If you're not ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary." -Malcolm X

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EvilPakistani View Post
                      @Shamlawar-Khurasani:


                      Why would anybody want to confess to a crime that could cost them their life and integrity?and confessions aren't always solid proof because people can also be coerced(pressured) into confessing for certain reasons, the people accusing the person of zina could try to trap that person, so you shouldn't rely on confessions only, forensic evidence maybe more accurate but it still doesn't prove consent.



                      Praying 5 times a day is a pillar of Islam, but stoning somebody for zina isn't a pillar, it's part of Sharia and depending on certain circumstance you can reinterpret it, the Qur'an mentions that adulterers should be stoned, but it also mentions 4 male witnesses, so that verse it more symbolic, it's trying to warn Muslims of committing such a grave sin but that since it's almost impossible to prove zina, you should leave it to Allah almighty to decide and punish, we can't take his place, we can't make error-free judgments as grave zina.



                      You still didn't answer any of my questions, if you want to go back to 7th century arabia then lets allow kids to get married and Muslim men should be allowed to own concubines.

                      P.S are you a salafist?
                      hats paradox ,he want all this stuff for afghanistan or for muslim countrys, but he lives in holland.
                      Last edited by Khilji; 11-26-2013, 07:15 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by EvilPakistani View Post
                        @Shamlawar-Khurasani:


                        Why would anybody want to confess to a crime that could cost them their life and integrity?and confessions aren't always solid proof because people can also be coerced(pressured) into confessing for certain reasons, the people accusing the person of zina could try to trap that person, so you shouldn't rely on confessions only, forensic evidence maybe more accurate but it still doesn't prove consent.



                        Praying 5 times a day is a pillar of Islam, but stoning somebody for zina isn't a pillar, it's part of Sharia and depending on certain circumstance you can reinterpret it, the Qur'an mentions that adulterers should be stoned, but it also mentions 4 male witnesses, so that verse it more symbolic, it's trying to warn Muslims of committing such a grave sin but that since it's almost impossible to prove zina, you should leave it to Allah almighty to decide and punish, we can't take his place, we can't make error-free judgments as grave zina.



                        You still didn't answer any of my questions, if you want to go back to 7th century arabia then lets allow kids to get married and Muslim men should be allowed to own concubines.

                        P.S are you a salafist?

                        It seems you have many misconceptions regarding Islam.

                        I advice you to read the following books before you discuss any of this with anyone else:


                        (free download pdf's. Right click ...save)

                        Belief in Allah


                        Islamic Creed Based on Quran and Sunnah
                        Originally posted by Firdousi
                        Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Khilji View Post
                          thats paradox ,he want all this stuff for afghanistan or for muslim countrys, but he lives in holland.
                          Spielberg, where is your video?
                          Originally posted by Firdousi
                          Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Shamlawar Khurasani View Post
                            It seems you have many misconceptions regarding Islam.

                            I advice you to read the following books before you discuss any of this with anyone else:


                            (free download pdf's. Right click ...save)

                            Belief in Allah


                            Islamic Creed Based on Quran and Sunnah
                            Referring a book to me is an easy clutch to runaway from the debate without responding to any of my valid points, since you've read that book, could you clear some of my supposed "misconceptions" about Islam?

                            By the way, if you want to live the "Islamic way of life", what are you doing in the Netherlands?Wouldn't you be better off in Brunei?
                            "If you're not ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary." -Malcolm X

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EvilPakistani View Post
                              Referring a book to me is an easy clutch to runaway from the debate without responding to any of my valid points, since you've read that book, could you clear some of my supposed "misconceptions" about Islam?

                              By the way, if you want to live the "Islamic way of life", what are you doing in the Netherlands?Wouldn't you be better off in Brunei?
                              Learn about Islam before talking about it.
                              Originally posted by Firdousi
                              Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                              Comment

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