Pew Poll: Sharia Law and Afghanistan

[Wowra]

How is it a failure? Because a documentary said so..

The damage caused by the four decade war is not just going to disappear over night or over a decade.. it's going to take time..

Let me put it this way..

Pros of taleban rule
-Security
I've detailed a lot of the Pros for modern TB governance in this essay:

Accidental Alchemy: Forging the Taliban into Effective Governance by Default | Foreign Policy Journal

Cons of taleban rule..

-Sell out to Pakistan (They had and have no respect for any of afghanistan leaders.. a good example is...president najib)
-Education is forbidden for majority of people..
Are you aware that the Taliban are building girls' schools and administering schools throughout Afghanistan? Particularly in Kunar where isolation allows them do so.
-Strict Punishments for petty crimes (E.g. people.. who don't have a job, and are hungry.their families..and they need to feed their families..so they go around and steal something. Obviously, taleban can't help them but they make their misery even worse.
Strengthening the tribe and qawm would circumvent the need for this, as well as stimulating the economy through ag co-ops, and industrial mining.
-Beating up women..
Are you aware that violence against women has elevated annually under the Karzai administration? Or the Shia Family Act was signed into law? Or the Personal Status Law for Shiite Muslims which make women the property of men and legalizes spousal rape?
-Public executions...
Versus private executions? And public executions still occur in tribal areas with and without Taliban oversight.
-They are mates with Pakistan's army.. who are slaughtering pashtuns everywhere..
I wouldn't say they are mates with Pakistani Army - however, with the ISI is a different matter.
-Majority of them have no education..even proper islamic education..
See above regarding the push for education
-they won't allow music.
-they won't allow televsion
While under the regime many television and radio did suffer a public execution and many people enjoying them suffered public floggings, however, the insurgency has forced the Emirate to modernize. Reconnaissance within Kabul is now accomplished through an assortment of web cams, cell phones, lap top computers, etc. Command and control is maximized through two way radios, cell phones, Google Earth imagery, and email. Recruitment, Administration, Information Operations and Propaganda all occur thanks to web sites, digital cameras, radio stations, etc.... so saying this, do you really think that they will return to a way without technology after seeing its use for community outreach, command and control, and administration? I don't think so. I think if we refuse to admit that the Taliban has been forced to modernize and forced to connect with the population vs. lord over them, then we will do a disservice to governance itself. There will be no peace in Afghanistan without the complicity of the Taliban - so demonizing them on their past behavior and ignoring their present conduct will only perpetuate the insurgency.
-If your beard is not long enough, you will get a beating ...
- they won't have a job
Many Talib has been forced to blend with all populations, often ditching the beard. Don't forget, Ostaz Sayyaf is the Senior MP - and is a Wahhabist or that most of the education ministry is staffed by Hesb-i Islami. If you think that deobandism, wahhabism, or other, stricter forms of Islam aren't involved with the Karzai administration - wait for 2014 or even worse - 2016 when scrutiny is gone from Afghanistan.
- Women with no husbands ... can't go out and get a job.. (they will also be beaten)
Are you aware that a woman held the rank of Lieutenant General under the Taliban rule and administered the Hospital in Kabul on the condition that she would not wear a burqa? Or that Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef has already spoken of the change in perception to women's rights in his interview with Al-Jazeera "5 Min With Mullah Zaeef?"
the list goes on and on...
The list does indeed go on.
etc...etc....


Now why would people want the taleban back, while they can enjoy most of these things such job, money, life, music, internet, food... under the current government rule.. Because such things mostly exist in Kabul while rural Afghanistan continues to live the same way they have for decades only now augmented by cell phones. Just beyond Kabul's shadow, in say - Baraki Barak, Logar - do you think there's work and internet? Maybe there is, but for most - I doubt it. Or do you think a changee Nuristani in Gowardesh has internet? A Job? Or food that he doesn't grow himself? If we continue to determine whats best for all of Afghanistan based upon the desires of Kabulis, or measure the success in Afghanistan by the development of Kabul, the divide will only become greater.

Obviously most of you hardly think of it that way, You haven't spent a night without food in your belly.. so you shouldn't even talk...

I've spent many nights without food - without water - I have also given Yatim my last dollar, and to my enemy my brotherly love. These things don't often happen in the Kingdom of Kabul, though.

[Wowra]

You have to validate that statement. Its actually a very unscientific one to make. The Pew data does mean a very important thing: it means that a representative sample of the populace holds a particular opinion about their view on governance and what sort of penal code they want in place. Illiteracy and backwardsness do not trump the right of even the illiterate (remember the Prophet Mohammad was illiterate) and those the tribal (code word for backward/rural these days) to have the right to the way of life they desire.

The representative sample is illiterate, and most likely does NOT understand what is good for them. If you were to conduct a survey in North Korea, they would claim the president being God is what is best for them; such surveys hold weight in educated societies where critical thinking is established; dragging Science into this is illogical.
It is always harmful to assume that a people don't know what is good for them. By that logic, we should convert the Kalash at the sword rather than appreciate the fact that a people like that still exist as a window into another world.

Quit the contrary. The overwhelming majority of the evidence, analyzed by the University of Maryland shows that Muslim populaces appreciate and commend other nations for advancements and technological prowess. That however has no bearing on their opinion of how adultery should be punished (Afghans by the way were the most likely in the Pew data to support the rajm practice)
I never said Muslims don't appreciate advancements and technology BA, re-read what I wrote. I said during the Taliban Era, I myself witnessed talk along the lines of "Cellphones with screens that have graphics are Haram because in the day of Judgement Allah would ask you why you invented creatures". So the fact of the matter is, in a war torn country, such surveys do absolutely nothing. Offer an Afghan peace and jobs, with the promise of sustainable growth, and he is all yours. Such surveys, similar to the ones NATO conducts, hold once again no weight. It is silly to assume they have any meaning to them, or to make anything out of them. You can literally buy an Afghan nowadays, not sure when was the last time you visited Kandahar.
Like I responded to Jamaludeen, the days of the Taliban abhorring technology are finished. They have had to modernize to fight a modern Army. Such things have been recorded extensively from Zabiullah Mujahid to Newsweek. Even the Maulana Faizullah in Swat is called the FM Mullah for his addiction to his radio announcements.
So I am sorry but I think we have a lot we can learn from rural people in terms of values and in terms of devotedness and bravery. I personally dont think that we have the right to call ourselves "intelligent diaspora" and view them as "backwards" creatures in need of our saving.

Sometimes we need to wake up and call a spade, a spade. There is no doubt that our elders possess wisdom, but the youth needs more than just fairy tale stories, it needs the intelligent diaspora, who are professionals in their field, to bring back what they have learned and share it. Israel is one of the leading countries in the world because of its diaspora who returned and helped build leading, cutting-edge institutions. So I'm sorry to say but given this 30 years of war, it is silly to romanticize the past and assume that our elders are nothing more than illiterate folks, hence Afghanistan ranking the least in just about any ranking imaginable, blame it on intervention or whatever(that's another discussion)but the fact of the matter is the following:
The nation is backwards, and it needs you and others to help advance it. Else, mark my words Afghanistan will remain in the stone age for years to come.
If we continue to arbitrarily "rank" nations according to western ideals, Afghanistan will continue to fail. Rather Afghanistan should be empowered to figure out how to manage the best model for Afghans. It may not be an Industrial Revolution, 100% literacy, and a standing army. Perhaps its just a low infant mortality rate, free time, and abundant crops. These things can happen with agenda-less education teaching them not that the way they have farmed for centuries is wrong, but that they can build simple constructions such as composting barrels, apple juicers, and cheap dehydraters to maximize their crops and income. Infant mortality can be remedied through mid-wifery - a concept that most rural Afghans are in favor of (to include so called Taliban villages). Obviously, there's more to it than that, but these are simple ways to empower villages and villagers, thus empowering Afghanistan. The trick is to find the right people to teach them - so its not a quid pro quo for western ideals.
In regards to Iran and Pakistan situation, I think Salma Dam speaks for its self, but we can expand upon that discussion at a later time, since it would divert from the current theme.

It's amazing how much this thing grew in 12 hours! Hot topic!

[JAMALUDEEN]

For Wowra....


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Are you aware that the Taliban are building girls' schools and administering schools throughout Afghanistan? Particularly in Kunar where isolation allows them do so.

Seriously, What are they going to teach kids? Science? History? This....

Even right now, they are attacking girl schools.

Are you aware that violence against women has elevated annually under the Karzai administration? Or the Shia Family Act was signed into law? Or the Personal Status Law for Shiite Muslims which make women the property of men and legalizes spousal rape?

Unfortunately, I don't know how you can even compare the present treatment of women with their treatment during the taleban era. Pre 2001, women were not allowed free movement, seek education or voice their opinions as they would end up being beaten or dead. There weren't many organisations working for awareness of women rights ..etc due to the ban by the taleban... Obviously, as a result...A lot of violence against women went unnoticed . In comparison to the taleban era, now there are many many organisations who are working for women rights, who are educating women on their rights , etc... Many of these organisations are bringing awareness towards "violence" related issues that women before thought were just normal part of their life. A simple example of this would be "Rawa".. Therefore, the elevated trend that you are saying is not as a result of "MEN going crazy and beating their women" but rather it's as a result of "Men have been going crazy all the time, but not women are more educated and are aware of their rights"..

While under the regime many television and radio did suffer a public execution and many people enjoying them suffered public floggings, however, the insurgency has forced the Emirate to modernize. Reconnaissance within Kabul is now accomplished through an assortment of web cams, cell phones, lap top computers, etc. Command and control is maximized through two way radios, cell phones, Google Earth imagery, and email. Recruitment, Administration, Information Operations and Propaganda all occur thanks to web sites, digital cameras, radio stations, etc.... so saying this, do you really think that they will return to a way without technology after seeing its use for community outreach, command and control, and administration? I don't think so. I think if we refuse to admit that the Taliban has been forced to modernize and forced to connect with the population vs. lord over them, then we will do a disservice to governance itself. There will be no peace in Afghanistan without the complicity of the Taliban - so demonizing them on their past behavior and ignoring their present conduct will only perpetuate the insurgency.

I disagree. Do you really believe they are going to allow Television networks, etc...for broadcasting TV shows, movies, songs? lol. For god sake, they even banned playing "marbles Tushla Bazi and chess" as that would waste people's precious time that they could spend worshipping. Whatever they are doing now, that they banned before just gets to show how hypocrital the movement has been since it's creation.

Many Talib has been forced to blend with all populations, often ditching the beard. Don't forget, Ostaz Sayyaf is the Senior MP - and is a Wahhabist or that most of the education ministry is staffed by Hesb-i Islami. If you think that deobandism, wahhabism, or other, stricter forms of Islam aren't involved with the Karzai administration - wait for 2014 or even worse - 2016 when scrutiny is gone from Afghanistan.
These warlords will eventually die out as the new generaton Afghans grow and take over their positions. lol..someone will take care of Sayyaf as well..just like someone took care of rabbani.

Are you aware that a woman held the rank of Lieutenant General under the Taliban rule and administered the Hospital in Kabul on the condition that she would not wear a burqa? Or that Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef has already spoken of the change in perception to women's rights in his interview with Al-Jazeera "5 Min With Mullah Zaeef?"

That's one woman. While thousands were locked up inside the house, married off to older mullahs, weren't allowed education, beaten, tortured and executed. Seriously, I have spoken to Hazara women, Pashtun women, Tajek women.. they all dislike the taleban whether they are from kandahar, bamiyan, or kabul..

Because such things mostly exist in Kabul while rural Afghanistan continues to live the same way they have for decades only now augmented by cell phones. Just beyond Kabul's shadow, in say - Baraki Barak, Logar - do you think there's work and internet? Maybe there is, but for most - I doubt it. Or do you think a changee Nuristani in Gowardesh has internet? A Job? Or food that he doesn't grow himself? If we continue to determine whats best for all of Afghanistan based upon the desires of Kabulis, or measure the success in Afghanistan by the development of Kabul, the divide will only become greater.

lol.. I have relatives who live outside of kabul.. they all know internet, Television, mobile phones...etc...etc... they even have facebooks....

[khushal]

What kind of an arguement is this?

You equal conservatism to illiteracy and ignorance.

How can a person promote or advocate something that he doesn´t understand (in this case Sharia Law aka an Islamic System)?

Khushala,
sometimes you say really weird stuff and I don´t know if you are joking or being serious.

Since you are from Paktia, you know that not Sharia Law is governing those people but tribal law. And Pashtunwali is as far away from Islamic Law than democracy is.

You didnt understand what was said. ADmin was argueing that afghans dont know what sharia is, my answer to him was that afghans dont have to know what sharia is, they have a conservative nature. How else can you explain the laws passed by Karzai about moral crimes, and laws making women the property of men, etc. His laws are not that much different than the Taliban laws. The reason is that he cant really do anything about that since he is dealing with the conservative mood of the people.


Social evolution Mostafa, read up on it. Malalai Joya understand this and she is the champion of women rights. She knows this can not be done over night and the force mechanism that is in play and you advocate is counterproductive. You cant fight nature, you can only embrace it. With Najib and Karmels help Soviets made this mistake this and with your help, the Americans have also made the same mistake. Stop using the West for your own social experiments because your only lengthening the misery and suffering the people you claim to care about.

It took America many generations and hundreds of years to go from this:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/georgewashington

to this:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/barackobama

and there was no outsider telling americans what is good for them.

Also, pashtunwali promotes democracy mostafa.

[Wowra]

For Wowra....


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Are you aware that the Taliban are building girls' schools and administering schools throughout Afghanistan? Particularly in Kunar where isolation allows them do so.

Seriously, What are they going to teach kids? Science? History? This....

Even right now, they are attacking girl schools.
I believe Girl's Schools are being attacked. I believe Girls' schools are even being attacked by TB. What I disagree with is that Girls' schools are being attacked by TB under orders from the Quetta Shura. And you're away that Mullah Omar worked diligently to keep Maulana Faizullah from closing schools in Swat, yes?
Are you aware that violence against women has elevated annually under the Karzai administration? Or the Shia Family Act was signed into law? Or the Personal Status Law for Shiite Muslims which make women the property of men and legalizes spousal rape?

Unfortunately, I don't know how you can even compare the present treatment of women with their treatment during the taleban era. Pre 2001, women were not allowed free movement, seek education or voice their opinions as they would end up being beaten or dead. There weren't many organisations working for awareness of women rights ..etc due to the ban by the taleban... Obviously, as a result...A lot of violence against women went unnoticed . In comparison to the taleban era, now there are many many organisations who are working for women rights, who are educating women on their rights , etc... Many of these organisations are bringing awareness towards "violence" related issues that women before thought were just normal part of their life. A simple example of this would be "Rawa".. Therefore, the elevated trend that you are saying is not as a result of "MEN going crazy and beating their women" but rather it's as a result of "Men have been going crazy all the time, but not women are more educated and are aware of their rights"..
Why don't you look up the parameters of the Shia Family Law before you say something like that. And citing RAWA as a credible source or as anything positive for Afghanistan is like saying KhAD had good intentions.
While under the regime many television and radio did suffer a public execution and many people enjoying them suffered public floggings, however, the insurgency has forced the Emirate to modernize. Reconnaissance within Kabul is now accomplished through an assortment of web cams, cell phones, lap top computers, etc. Command and control is maximized through two way radios, cell phones, Google Earth imagery, and email. Recruitment, Administration, Information Operations and Propaganda all occur thanks to web sites, digital cameras, radio stations, etc.... so saying this, do you really think that they will return to a way without technology after seeing its use for community outreach, command and control, and administration? I don't think so. I think if we refuse to admit that the Taliban has been forced to modernize and forced to connect with the population vs. lord over them, then we will do a disservice to governance itself. There will be no peace in Afghanistan without the complicity of the Taliban - so demonizing them on their past behavior and ignoring their present conduct will only perpetuate the insurgency.

I disagree. Do you really believe they are going to allow Television networks, etc...for broadcasting TV shows, movies, songs? lol. For god sake, they even banned playing "marbles Tushla Bazi and chess" as that would waste people's precious time that they could spend worshipping. Whatever they are doing now, that they banned before just gets to show how hypocrital the movement has been since it's creation.
Change is not hypocrisy.

Many Talib has been forced to blend with all populations, often ditching the beard. Don't forget, Ostaz Sayyaf is the Senior MP - and is a Wahhabist or that most of the education ministry is staffed by Hesb-i Islami. If you think that deobandism, wahhabism, or other, stricter forms of Islam aren't involved with the Karzai administration - wait for 2014 or even worse - 2016 when scrutiny is gone from Afghanistan.
These warlords will eventually die out as the new generaton Afghans grow and take over their positions. lol..someone will take care of Sayyaf as well..just like someone took care of rabbani.
So you're saying you support the violent overthrow of government leaders? So does the Taliban. That is hypocrisy - compare it to the previous statement.
Are you aware that a woman held the rank of Lieutenant General under the Taliban rule and administered the Hospital in Kabul on the condition that she would not wear a burqa? Or that Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef has already spoken of the change in perception to women's rights in his interview with Al-Jazeera "5 Min With Mullah Zaeef?"

That's one woman. While thousands were locked up inside the house, married off to older mullahs, weren't allowed education, beaten, tortured and executed. Seriously, I have spoken to Hazara women, Pashtun women, Tajek women.. they all dislike the taleban whether they are from kandahar, bamiyan, or kabul..
Again, perhaps you should see watch the interview for updated views on women's rights. I'm not a Taliban advocate - far from it, but I have formed my views based upon the careful study of both sides. But I suppose it would be easier if I only swallowed what I was fed.
Because such things mostly exist in Kabul while rural Afghanistan continues to live the same way they have for decades only now augmented by cell phones. Just beyond Kabul's shadow, in say - Baraki Barak, Logar - do you think there's work and internet? Maybe there is, but for most - I doubt it. Or do you think a changee Nuristani in Gowardesh has internet? A Job? Or food that he doesn't grow himself? If we continue to determine whats best for all of Afghanistan based upon the desires of Kabulis, or measure the success in Afghanistan by the development of Kabul, the divide will only become greater.

lol.. I have relatives who live outside of kabul.. they all know internet, Television, mobile phones...etc...etc... they even have facebooks..I don't believe I said they have never heard of the internet or moonlanding - I said they don't HAVE internet. There's a remarkable difference there. But you can continue to only hear what you would like and internalize points that accentuate your current view and never once grow an inch from this point now. It's impossible for that to affect me...

Again, my only point is that the Taliban today are not the same Taliban that were ousted. I have given you plenty of resources to perhaps come to the same conclusion while you have given me RAWA. Since I'm well aware of your position and the argument you make, I suggest you get familiar with the other side so you may at least make a more solid argument or shape your ideas to a more rounded stance.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Again, my only point is that the Taliban today are not the same Taliban that were ousted. I have given you plenty of resources to perhaps come to the same conclusion while you have given me RAWA. Since I'm well aware of your position and the argument you make, I suggest you get familiar with the other side so you may at least make a more solid argument or shape your ideas to a more rounded stance.

I have argued against both sides. You can look through my previous posts.

[JAMALUDEEN]

I believe Girl's Schools are being attacked. I believe Girls' schools are even being attacked by TB. What I disagree with is that Girls' schools are being attacked by TB under orders from the Quetta Shura. And you're away that Mullah Omar worked diligently to keep Maulana Faizullah from closing schools in Swat, yes?

Actions speak louder than words..

Why don't you look up the parameters of the Shia Family Law before you say something like that. And citing RAWA as a credible source or as anything positive for Afghanistan is like saying KhAD had good intentions.

RAWA is just one source.. there are many more sources... Again, you can't make a fair assessment and comparsion between the taleban era and todays government... because as i mentioned..previously there was no free speech, choice...or opinion..

Change is not hypocrisy.

What guarantee can you give that they have changed for good?lol

So you're saying you support the violent overthrow of government leaders? So does the Taliban. That is hypocrisy - compare it to the previous statement.

You mean like how Hekmatyar got kicked out?...

Again, perhaps you should see watch the interview for updated views on women's rights. I'm not a Taliban advocate - far from it, but I have formed my views based upon the careful study of both sides. But I suppose it would be easier if I only swallowed what I was fed.

I'm not saying that you are completely wrong.. but you still can't make a fair assessment of both eras due to what i stated above.. Why do you assume that if I'm arguing against something, then somehow i must be pro-opposition..?

I don't believe I said they have never heard of the internet or moonlanding - I said they don't HAVE internet. There's a remarkable difference there. But you can continue to only hear what you would like and internalize points that accentuate your current view and never once grow an inch from this point now. It's impossible for that to affect me...

Yes, well you are doing exactly the same thing. You can't make singapore out of Afghanistan in 10 years.. its not easy..


WOra...

relax.. we are here to learn not fight..

[SiiNii]

Here at Pashtunforums our female members including jamaludeen make many important contributions and have made many interesting posts. However, when arguing with them in the political talk section one should heed the words of the American philosopher Christopher Julius Rock the 3rd.

Chris Rock - Never Scared (argument, men vs women) - YouTube

[khushal]

^^That's hilarious

[Wowra]

Actions speak louder than words..




RAWA is just one source.. there are many more sources... Again, you can't make a fair assessment and comparsion between the taleban era and todays government... because as i mentioned..previously there was no free speech, choice...or opinion..

I'm not comparing the former Taliban regime with the current administration, I'm comparing the current Taliban with the Karzai administration.


What guarantee can you give that they have changed for good?lol
Will you accept an IOU? haha




You mean like how Hekmatyar got kicked out?...
Its pretty much the only election in Afghanistan where everyone votes: the violent overthrow.



I'm not saying that you are completely wrong.. but you still can't make a fair assessment of both eras due to what i stated above.. Why do you assume that if I'm arguing against something, then somehow i must be pro-opposition..?

I think that's the confusion - I'm comparing the current entity of the Emirate operating under the current directives from the Quetta Shura.



Yes, well you are doing exactly the same thing. You can't make singapore out of Afghanistan in 10 years.. its not easy..
It absolutely isn't.

WOra...

relax.. we are here to learn not fight..

Don't worry - I'm hardly fogging up my computer screen. I actually enjoy this, and am learning. You think I can get into a debate like this with regular ol' Americans haha I appreciate your spirited debate, condescending quips, and bullheadedness - it reminds me of the defiance I've long admired of Afghanistan. Thanks!

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Once again, intelligence and modality of punishment are not tied at the hip. Bernie Madoff spending life in jail versus Bernie madoff recieving the Quranic punishment have no bearing on that 18 year olds intelligence. Rather it speaks to his value system which he has a right to.

If Afghans truly, consciously, want Shariah Law, then they will get what they want. However, my problem is the "plus-tax". What does that mean? It means without knowing, and properly understanding Shariah-law, and knowing how uneducated and illiterate the nation has become after 40 years of bombing, who elaborates on what Shariah is, and how to implement it?

Thats the point Admin... its what THEY interpret to be shariah law. The study makes sure to delineate the variances between nations on the views of what constitutes certain punishments for various crimes. I am NOT alleging that you are doing this, but this is a common tactic that secularists use to deny indigenous Muslim populations the right to define penal codes by religious dictums. At the end of the day, all that matters, say for instance, in the issue of theft for example is how the Afghan interprets it and how he relates it to his own custom, law, etc.

And irrespective of this, how they interpret shariah is their business scientifically when asking the question of what do they want. It would be prudent for an analyst to, when discussing governance and how to implement, understand the people's concept of justice and what it constitutes as that is the only thing that is important and is relevent to autonomy and independent development.

Shariah goes by interpretation of the scholars; Afghanistan does NOT have scholars. You will have a segment of population claiming that your iPhone is Haram cause it can play YouTube videos, and how do you counter that?

Thats once again on them to decide. If 80% of the populace decides that they think this its not Karzai, mine, or your business to force them to see our view. That is something they will deal with on their own. When the son of a scholar that made such an edict or a village leader is caught red handed with a cell phone and a skirmish starts or challenges begin to such ideologies it will adapt on its own. Thats how American law worked too. For most of America's nearly 4 centuries certain laws existed on the books that took certain actions (adultery, sodomy, etc) and rendered those severely punishable crimes. Or take for instance Larry Flynt's famous case in Cincinnati making it so that the Courts redefined free speech contexts versus indecency laws. Or for that matter, take the fact that human beings were designated to drink from separate drinking fountains and that the 50s and 60s saw black families lynched in many parts of the country and that the instability forced Kennedy to change laws. Thats how nations autonomously develop.

Its really not our place or right to tell them what is wrong or right in their view on technology, education, etc etc.

Especially when arms are out in the open? How do we prevent stadiums from becoming execution arenas?

It doesnt concern us. If they decide public execution is their mandate - so be it. They will decide the evolution of their penal code without Taj Wardak telling them how to execute people. Its the same as when Americans hear lectures about the death penalty from Europeans. Most Texans and other Americans tell them to "f off" and that our law system is not subject to their dictates.

These are the questions that are out in the open, and one must ponder over them rather rationally. Shariah Law, if properly applied, can do wonders. But it can also take a nation to a stone age if one begins to come up with their o own laws(here comes the plus tax). I'll give you an example, in Kandahar, men began marrying children(age 9 or so), and literally had wedding festivals, to which many folks attended, claiming it was okay and allowed in Islam, since Islam encourages love.

Men were marrying young girls in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan long before the Taliban. I can find you grandmothers who bore 13 sons precisely because of when they were married off. That doesnt make it biologically right by our standards or by the proper interpretation of Shariah or the sirah of Muhammad, but its another example of how all that is wrong with Afghanistan to an extent intrinsically by western standards somehow started with The Taliban.

Robert Fisk addressed some of this when he wrote an obituary about Zahir Shah and noted how Zahir's men used to find him many a young girl for his personal pleasures in his younger days. Do you think these women, in that society were consenting? And that was in the era of supposed shang ri lah Afghan development and freedom.

The former practice you mentioned goes on to this day under Karzai:
http://www.trustineducation.org/why-...-afghan-woman/

Or take for instance how to this very day in the villages, a Pashtunized interpretation of divorce law and what happens to a bride's rights regarding inheritance marriages.

Here is a paper done out of Kabul documenting how in the current era the commoness of this practice that is also prevalant in the Indian country side:

http://www.medicamondiale.org/filead...udy_2004_e.pdf

India's approach to combating this has not been to have 37 nations and a bunch of technocrat emigres smacking around villagers with pistols.... rather a new internalized discussion is going on in India where people are standing up internally against this practice. That will be what leads to change in India - not enforced change from Indian emigres.

Now in an educated society, where critical thinking exists, the aforementioned would NOT have had happened. I also want to bring back our attention to the PEW survey, my problem with them claiming Afghans want Shariah, is not that Afghans want it, its that at this point Afghans for the most part don't know what Shariah is, nor do they know how to apply it, which is why they need folks like you, or theologists(we have a ton here in New York, of Afghan origin)to educate their fellow brethren.

Personal story. I was discussing Diabolis and his nature with some folks once over there over there. They insisted on the israeliyaat tradition regarding Iblees being a fallen angel. You and me might smirk at that as thats Islam 101 and you and I know that here in the US and know where our tradition varies from the Bible. They bought the Mullah and I took out the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran and he said who wrote this and why is it in English? I said Abdullah Yusuf Ali, a Muslim. He said, this is obviously a shia liar. I explained this is not the case and that Ali was a hafiz born into a bora family who converted to sunniism. I asked for the copy of the Quran in their own house and found the exact same verse and they still never admitted this.

Now I think its perfectly fine to discuss these things, but the example illustrates how on basic theological concepts errors are perpetuated... imagine if I rolled in there all high fly and tried to tell them their penal practices were wrong. Thats a completely different way then respectfully having a discussion.

37 nations and Karzai trying to cram a new interpretation down thei throats is very unwise and will radicalize the situation.


Afghan Americans run about 6 Mosques in New York City, and the Imams and leaders are Afghans, these are the folks that need to educate the nation. In Medicine, it is your duty(you are not obliged to)to educate the nation. Although I can understand why you would be hesitant to help, because:
A)Their refusal to listen(which is normal after 40 years of backwardness)
B)Corruption, and scandals.
C)Incompetent folks with leading positions, that are there without merit.


Not hesitant to help. But I just think the country deserves the right to find its own equilibrium. Its own sons will have to fight that battle internally. There is a video someone posted here a while back from Jalalabad. In it, a Qari is surrounded by about 13 young men. The Qari talks about how women, in his view shouldnt leave the house etc etc. The young men, who are according to the journalist, bystanders were nodding in agreement. ONE young man politely at the end spoke up and said "qari saib I disagree" and eloquently laid out his reasons and everyone got uncomfortable and silent. It will be sons of the soil like that young man who will have to suffer and evn potentially die to change the culture over time. There will be many other young men like him and eventually, as in all independent nations, a critical mass stage will be reached. But we completely set back that young mans cause when Steve parachutes out of a helicopter with some emigre and they get down there and beat the hell out of qari saib and piss off the villagers into thinking their people are abused.

The survey once again, Admin, does not comment on the cousins desire to learn about the slope of the tangent line. Rather it gives us insight into how when an idiot like Najib or Karzai thinks that he will cram the slope of the tangent line down a villagers throat by forcing a different value system on him ---> blowback may occur and the poor villager may associate the slope of the tangent line with interventionalism and that enforced value system. That is why the Kabul government, being an imposed entity, will embolden blowback. The diaspora in Kabul and those like that Naz singer that pissed off tribal people in Kandahar when she sang in front of men are not teaching villagers about slopes of tangent lines... they are using interventionalism to enforce the notions on people that dont want them.

I think you are right, but most of the frustrations Afghans have with Karzai is the fact that for all the aid given, you haven't shown us much for it. I am almost inclined to say that Afghans would be okay with learning the slope of a tangent line, provided that Karzai builds PolyTechnic Institutions, Liberal Arts schools like Yale, or mighty Engineering schools like MIT, and for all the aid he has received, the aforementioned does not sound far-fetched.

I agree with this. Another reason I have such venom for the emigres is the fact that at Yale I saw the sons and daughter of Saudi princes, Pakistani generals, and Afghan emigres. I expect a meritocracy from our people as opposed to this sort of thing. And if it were just the transfers to the West that would be one thing, but teachers in Afghanistan have lamented how in these good schools being built there their students are bought in armored cars and are the sons and daughters of these elites while the local kids sell corn outside the school wall. I think this is despicable. A direct example of this corruption is Haider Akbar.

What is sad, and despicable about the Karzai administration is that even he himself has no clue where the most of the money went. Afghans are illiterate, and when a nation is illiterate, to allow them to make blind decisions, when we know they are headed on the wrong path is condemnable.

I would agree that the Taliban took over during at turbulent period, and it is wrong for one to assume that the Taliban[i.e the Afghan portion of it]ever had a proper chance at governing the nation, at the end of the day, the Taliban was composed of Afghans, who are the son of that soil; but the fact is we saw what happens when a nation is illiterate. Pakistan easily found some stooges in the group, and literally used those stooges to the nation back year by year, using heavy force. Even the senior Taliban commanders couldn't figure out why some of the folks in their own group were acting bizarre; which subsequently lead to them hanging their own group members in Kandahar stadium. The point I am trying to draw from this is when a nation is illiterate, regional countries will take advantage of you.

Even this radicalization of the Taliban was once again facilitated by emigres supporting the Eastern and Northern alliances. They found ways to construct Indo Russian Iranian aid pipelines to these groups whilst Pakistan then ratched up its funding of the Taliban in tandem.

Once again, the survey does not comment on whether Afghans want to know how to measure blood pressure accurately and whether they would accept that. Rather it talks about what penal code and value system they prefer. That penal code and value system have no bearing on learning how to do blood pressure measurements.


Once again, if Afghans want Shariah Law, what assurance can you give me that :
A)They know what Shariah Law is
B)They will implement is properly.

Their literacy rate makes me cringe; think about it.


Once again, it doesnt matter... just as I would bet you that a large number of Americans couldnt even recite the bill of rights to you, its whatever THEIR interpretation of shariah law is that matters. Their improper implementation will result in internicine conflict and it will take a generation or two but change will occur internally. The same was happening in Iran when Ayatollah Khomeni's reign was slowly giving away to the reformers like Khatami and Rafsanjani. Then when outsider powers and the Iranian emigres started ratcheting up the war rhetoric Iranians voted in more and more radical figures as a response.

I would say the evidence shows predominantly because of the foreign policy blunders of all of them relative to eachother. Mutual cooperation would hardly diminish their standing. Thats like saying the European Union countries have regional interests and want to see eachother weak in this day and age where none of them have real empires in the traditional context. Britain is hardly concerned with France's reach at this point etc. and vice versa. They have realized they should respect eachothers autonomy and cooperate in the union (though some might say the Cyprus mess shows they were duped in just how much cooperation).


BA, history tells us that because Afghans haven't criticized themselves, or hold hawkish views about themselves(as opposed to Afghans romanticizing their past)foreigners have found it easy to divide and conquer, and swim in the blood of Afghans. If Afghans were critical thinkers and problem-solvers, which unfortunately hasn't been possible to foreign interference, civilians wouldn't be blowing up on a daily basis. Afghans lack unity, and don't emphasize education. The aforementioned is a fact.

What I will end it in is this. The survey actually fascinatingly enough is accurate to the "t" by even noting that your and my views on the matter are CONTRARY to the majority views in Muslim countries. This makes it even MORE apparent that its not our right to teach them the "right" shariah from our vantage point because they disagree with us from the initial.

http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-w...ety-app-a.aspx

"In their attitudes toward modern society and their relations with people of other faiths, U.S. Muslims sometimes more closely resemble other Americans than they do Muslims around the world....In their attitudes toward modern society and their relations with people of other faiths, U.S. Muslims sometimes more closely resemble other Americans than they do Muslims around the world."

And in some ways this may be a good thing. Remember, Muhammad came in the era of jahiliyaah. He saw to it that a people were slowly but surely fostered into the tradition and understood their limitations. The discussion Aishah Bibi has with a young sahabah on the ordering of Quran verses was fascinating. He asks to see her Quran copy and she asks what matter it makes if the surahs are arranged in a noncanonical way. The youth answers that the order is important because the way in which drinking alcohol was weaned off the society. In that same vein, when Makkah was taken the Prophet did not trounce the elite or jail them as acommunist would. Rather, he gave Abu Sufyaan gifts and esteem and took him into confidence resulting in a smooth transition. In many ways I agree with you that we have a unique view of Islam in that we see how certain facets of humanity are common and that "the other" is not some evil animal in need of enlightenment. Rather we learn the pragmatic and practical approach perhaps to how a society gradually can accept enlightened shariah.

With converts marrying into many Muslim families we American Muslims are uniquely equipped and deal on daily bases with how to slowly but surely introduce Islam to these folks without scaring them away or giving the wrong view on things. I think thats good because it engenders a sort of understanding and inclusiveness not found anywhere else. But even that should teach us and remind us about how NOT to impose these views of ours overseas.

But in summary, the survey basically predicts our response and our variances with the rural Afghan. And that is exactly why its important. It shows clearly that we have utterly NO right and no place to force educate these folks.

Noninterventionalism is a concept the emigre needs to acquire quickly otherwise rebound radicalism is going to create major setbacks.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Here at Pashtunforums our female members including jamaludeen make many important contributions and have made many interesting posts. However, when arguing with them in the political talk section one should heed the words of the American philosopher Christopher Julius Rock the 3rd.

Chris Rock - Never Scared (argument, men vs women) - YouTube

you have earned it.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Don't worry - I'm hardly fogging up my computer screen. I actually enjoy this, and am learning. You think I can get into a debate like this with regular ol' Americans haha I appreciate your spirited debate, condescending quips, and bullheadedness - it reminds me of the defiance I've long admired of Afghanistan. Thanks!

No worries.. the feeling is mutual mate!

Also, you guys need to lay off the ad hominems.