Pew Poll: Sharia Law and Afghanistan

[Toramana]

I didn't expect such nonsense from you Toramana.

Admin Khan, contrary to what you think I consider Pukhtuns of Afghanistan better and superior than many Pukhtuns of Pakistan for the reason that they are very loyal to their culture, values, and identity and I believe in a couple of decades they will not only surpass Pukhtuns of Pakistan in affluence but also aesthetic and cultural creativity ---

My reference to Kandahar and Waziristan was for two reasons; Mullah Barazkzai belongs to Kandahar just like Mullah Omar; and the Taleban connection to Waziristan.

Rest, this Maulavi Barakzai like typical Mullah wants to play sentiments for attacking the opponent. When he mentions ANP, he forgets how did his beloved Taleban impose their barbarism on Pukhtuns in Waziristan and Afghanistan or how many his Gulbuddin Hikmatyar massacred.

da mulyano pa shan makar dai

[HalloIsBack]

sorry but what i still don't get it is people which are screaming for sharia don't behave like this

so you can attack me how you want
i don't care about it

[Admin Khan]

Thanks for your clarification Toramana, no love-lost.

BA is right, it's not my place to chime in and interfere. Thanks for your post BA.

[Khostai]

sorry but what i still don't get it is people which are screaming for sharia don't behave like this

so you can attack me how you want
i don't care about it

OMG you are so right, now I know why we are friends

[HalloIsBack]

OMG you are so right, now I know why we are friends

[Admin Khan]

Not to grave-dig, but when a society is as backwards and illiterate as Afghanistan is, these PEW surveys hold no weight, and mean absolutely nothing. I'm sure if PEW would've conducted a survey during the Taliban era to ask what they thought of the internet or touch-screen cellphones with video recorders, 99% would say it is a sin to use internet or use a camera to record humans. When a society is as backwards as Afghanistan, it is the job of the intelligent folks in the diaspora to guide them. Saying that this implies Afghan want the strict interpretation that the Taliban wished for is utter nonsense, such thoughts should unreservedly be condemned; all Afghans want is jobs and peace. I can assure that they don't give a rats rear whether it is Sharia based or democratic based at this point, simply peace, wealth and jobs is the aim/goal. When a society is in fear, they would at times side with what the oppressor wants; always remember that. For anyone to claim that ISI and Pakistan don't wish for a backwards, dependent, divisive, and blood-shedding Afghanistan, they must get their skulls examined. It is a known fact, and common sense tells us that a strong, forward-thinking Afghanistan is NOT in the interest of both Iran and Pakistan.

[Wowra]

Admin Khan,

Pol Pot thought the same way. The people of Afghanistan don't need guidance from afar, they need empowerment within. For my friends trapped in Afghanistan that yearn for a more western lifestyle, I do what I can to bring them to the west (e.g. sponsorships, write resumes, offer free room and board, etc.), but for Afghanistan itself - there needs to be a place in the world where a man can wake up and secure his food and water for the day, and pray to God that he take care of the rest. What we owe Afghanistan is agenda-less schools, sustainable medicine, and infrastructure to get them to both.

I'm sure many people do want a return of the Taliban. During the time of the Taliban an Afghan could drive from Jalalabad to Herat without paying a single fine, bribe, or robber... now he must pay every ALP, ANP, Taliban, Hesb-i Islami, and general criminal a toll to get where he's going - and its not improbable that he hits them all within the stretch of Highway 2 from Jalriz to Kabul. Obviously, this is a tame excuse to warrant a regime change, but its something that happens. I go into much deeper reasons Accidental Alchemy, but ultimately I'll defer back to my opening. If we want a different thing for people we love in Afghanistan, get them out of there, but its time that Afghanistan decide its own fate - something that hasn't happened but for a brief period following 1747. Those are the thoughts of a feraingee anyway haha.

Wowra

[Admin Khan]

Admin Khan,

Pol Pot thought the same way. The people of Afghanistan don't need guidance from afar, they need empowerment within. For my friends trapped in Afghanistan that yearn for a more western lifestyle, I do what I can to bring them to the west (e.g. sponsorships, write resumes, offer free room and board, etc.), but for Afghanistan itself - there needs to be a place in the world where a man can wake up and secure his food and water for the day, and pray to God that he take care of the rest. What we owe Afghanistan is agenda-less schools, sustainable medicine, and infrastructure to get them to both.

I'm sure many people do want a return of the Taliban. During the time of the Taliban an Afghan could drive from Jalalabad to Herat without paying a single fine, bribe, or robber... now he must pay every ALP, ANP, Taliban, Hesb-i Islami, and general criminal a toll to get where he's going - and its not improbable that he hits them all within the stretch of Highway 2 from Jalriz to Kabul. Obviously, this is a tame excuse to warrant a regime change, but its something that happens. I go into much deeper reasons Accidental Alchemy, but ultimately I'll defer back to my opening. If we want a different thing for people we love in Afghanistan, get them out of there, but its time that Afghanistan decide its own fate - something that hasn't happened but for a brief period following 1747. Those are the thoughts of a feraingee anyway haha.

Wowra

Wowra, I wholeheartedly agree that security is also something Afghans want. I can bet that if one were to tell an Afghan, communism will guaranty you freedom of religion, security(i.e your example about Jalalabad to Herat)and most importantly jobs and peace, the entire nation would be in line for the red hats. Afghans just want peace, and a decent job to make a living. Since Karzai has done a terrible job with his administration, some uneducated illiterate folks who have never truly tasted a free society would often times wish for the Taliban to return, but to support their cause and not educated them about alternative realities is being cowardly and inhumane. It is no different than the young folks of Swat who are taught this world has no purpose and to go blow up yourself for your ticket to heaven.

In conclusion Wowra, this is not a black and white situation. There should be a gray area, to claim that it is either the Taliban return vs Karzai is just silly, illogical. There are far more efficient algorithms.

[Kushan Prince]

Admin Khan, contrary to what you think I consider Pukhtuns of Afghanistan better and superior than many Pukhtuns of Pakistan for the reason that they are very loyal to their culture, values, and identity and I believe in a couple of decades they will not only surpass Pukhtuns of Pakistan in affluence but also aesthetic and cultural creativity ---

My reference to Kandahar and Waziristan was for two reasons; Mullah Barazkzai belongs to Kandahar just like Mullah Omar; and the Taleban connection to Waziristan.

Rest, this Maulavi Barakzai like typical Mullah wants to play sentiments for attacking the opponent. When he mentions ANP, he forgets how did his beloved Taleban impose their barbarism on Pukhtuns in Waziristan and Afghanistan or how many his Gulbuddin Hikmatyar massacred.

da mulyano pa shan makar dai

Wasn't Mullah Omar born in Uruzgan?

[Wowra]

Wowra, I wholeheartedly agree that security is also something Afghans want. I can bet that if one were to tell an Afghan, communism will guaranty you freedom of religion, security(i.e your example about Jalalabad to Herat)and most importantly jobs and peace, the entire nation would be in line for the red hats. Afghans just want peace, and a decent job to make a living. Since Karzai has done a terrible job with his administration, some uneducated illiterate folks who have never truly tasted a free society would often times wish for the Taliban to return, but to support their cause and not educated them about alternative realities is being cowardly and inhumane. It is no different than the young folks of Swat who are taught this world has no purpose and to go blow up yourself for your ticket to heaven.

In conclusion Wowra, this is not a black and white situation. There should be a gray area, to claim that it is either the Taliban return vs Karzai is just silly, illogical. There are far more efficient algorithms.

Admin Khan,

I wasn't advocating any form of government for Afghanistan - only saying that its the responsibility of Afghanistan. If they choose a Sharia based form, that's the prerogative of that nation-state. I personally think something more tribally based would be most effective for Afghanistan, but that could wedge into Sharia or Communism or Democracy. My statements about TB are only to state my agreement with their validity that many Afghans may want a return of the Taliban for extremely simple reasons which is more or less a testament to the failure of the current situation.

[JAMALUDEEN]

How is it a failure? Because a documentary said so..

The damage caused by the four decade war is not just going to disappear over night or over a decade.. it's going to take time..

Let me put it this way..

Pros of taleban rule
-Security


Cons of taleban rule..

-Sell out to Pakistan (They had and have no respect for any of afghanistan leaders.. a good example is...president najib)
-Education is forbidden for majority of people..
-Strict Punishments for petty crimes (E.g. people.. who don't have a job, and are hungry.their families..and they need to feed their families..so they go around and steal something. Obviously, taleban can't help them but they make their misery even worse.
-Beating up women..
-Public executions...
-They are mates with Pakistan's army.. who are slaughtering pashtuns everywhere..
-Majority of them have no education..even proper islamic education..
-they won't allow music.
-they won't allow televsion
-If your beard is not long enough, you will get a beating ...
- they won't have a job
- Women with no husbands ... can't go out and get a job.. (they will also be beaten)

the list goes on and on...

etc...etc....


Now why would people want the taleban back, while they can enjoy most of these things such job, money, life, music, internet, food... under the current government rule..

Obviously most of you hardly think of it that way, You haven't spent a night without food in your belly.. so you shouldn't even talk...

[JAMALUDEEN]

In saying that, I'm not saying we shouldn't have Sharia... but Taleban version of sharia is wrong..

Majority of people who support taleban are just little misguided souls... no offence though.. Look at Manzareh for example, he had a shirtless picture of himself in his avatar...

lol..

If the taleban saw him doing that ... he would get his azz whupped by them...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Not to grave-dig, but when a society is as backwards and illiterate as Afghanistan is, these PEW surveys hold no weight, and mean absolutely nothing.

You have to validate that statement. Its actually a very unscientific one to make. The Pew data does mean a very important thing: it means that a representative sample of the populace holds a particular opinion about their view on governance and what sort of penal code they want in place. Illiteracy and backwardsness do not trump the right of even the illiterate (remember the Prophet Mohammad was illiterate) and those the tribal (code word for backward/rural these days) to have the right to the way of life they desire.


I'm sure if PEW would've conducted a survey during the Taliban era to ask what they thought of the internet or touch-screen cellphones with video recorders, 99% would say it is a sin to use internet or use a camera to record humans.

Quit the contrary. The overwhelming majority of the evidence, analyzed by the University of Maryland shows that Muslim populaces appreciate and commend other nations for advancements and technological prowess. That however has no bearing on their opinion of how adultery should be punished (Afghans by the way were the most likely in the Pew data to support the rajm practice)

When a society is as backwards as Afghanistan, it is the job of the intelligent folks in the diaspora to guide them.

That sounds like pure interventionalism and Little Brown Brotherism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Brown_Brother

Kipling became famous for pushing this concept very hard and was its spokesman. Its sort of the equivalent concept of "the white man's burden."

"Kipling considered himself a product of that empire, and he became a staunch advocate of western imperialism. It brought "civilization" to "new-caught sullen peoples." It was, in fact, a moral obligation. Favored nations and races had the responsibility to "take up the White Man's burden." Kipling wrote the poem to urge the United States to take over the Philippines."

So I am sorry but I think we have a lot we can learn from rural people in terms of values and in terms of devotedness and bravery. I personally dont think that we have the right to call ourselves "intelligent diaspora" and view them as "backwards" creatures in need of our saving.

In its most current form, neoconservatism is exactly based on this premise: democratize and spread liberty because we have these rights and all others deserve them... even if they dont want them. And the pew data confirms they dont want our diaspora values.



Saying that this implies Afghan want the strict interpretation that the Taliban wished for is utter nonsense, such thoughts should unreservedly be condemned;

Once again, Afghanistan had the highest rates and subrates in support of SPECIFIC punishments meted out under various interpretations of shariah. The author very elegantly lays out the sample sizes and the subcategories for your perusal as a good statistician would.

One might say that Afghans dont want an unjust person (perhaps a Talib perhaps not) to mete out these punishments willy nilly where a person is grabbed off the street and then accused of adultery and stoned. But that is a separate matter.

all Afghans want is jobs and peace.

And per a the data a way of life that is contrary to the diaspora.

I can assure that they don't give a rats rear whether it is Sharia based or democratic based at this point,

Once again, the large sample size data spread across the country, done not by Pakistanis concords with much of the Muslim world and in fact is more vigorous. Its not specifically democracy they reject, rather its the secular value system based democracy that diaspora think they can hoist on their people.

simply peace, wealth and jobs is the aim/goal. When a society is in fear, they would at times side with what the oppressor wants; always remember that.

Yet in this case Karzai and the diaspora technocrats are the oppressor... so by that logic attributing the survey results to fear doesnt work. That would negative the "the government is legit elected" argument.

For anyone to claim that ISI and Pakistan don't wish for a backwards, dependent, divisive, and blood-shedding Afghanistan, they must get their skulls examined. It is a known fact, and common sense tells us that a strong, forward-thinking Afghanistan is NOT in the interest of both Iran and Pakistan.

That is the common simplistic diaspora based interpretation. We have discussed this ad infinitum. The history behind the strategic depth policy and its initiation began in Kabul and was based on a set of historical circumstances centering around national security interests. Pakistan's concern did not hinge on whether Afghans were all literary geniuses or Einsteins... rather it was formulated based on not finding itself in a pincer hold and paranoia post the East Pakistan West Pakistan fiasco, paranoia that was exacerbated by Kabul's repeated policy failures. That same approach would eventually result in Daud trying to save face and then approach Pakistan after Soviet influence and its tentacles interlaced far too much in the state at his own behest. Pakistan would probably be find with Karzai, Buddha, 3 Hindu guys, Russia, Einstein or whomever as long as its national security paradigm remained intact and/or gaurantees of land claims were relinquished. Instead Karzai has foolishly sealed his own fate ala Daud by pursuing the same failed strategic balancing as a response to strategic depth (also was a response):

http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...1/wowra-37575/

x

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Admin Khan,

Pol Pot thought the same way. The people of Afghanistan don't need guidance from afar, they need empowerment within.

This is spot on Mr. Snow

For my friends trapped in Afghanistan that yearn for a more western lifestyle, I do what I can to bring them to the west (e.g. sponsorships, write resumes, offer free room and board, etc.), but for Afghanistan itself - there needs to be a place in the world where a man can wake up and secure his food and water for the day, and pray to God that he take care of the rest. What we owe Afghanistan is agenda-less schools, sustainable medicine, and infrastructure to get them to both.

Agree with most of this but private efforts trump UN, World Bank, IMF, US, NATO or whatever organization this generally homogenous control structure goes by. Each time the homogenous control structure gets involved its largesse comes with a price.

I'm sure many people do want a return of the Taliban. During the time of the Taliban an Afghan could drive from Jalalabad to Herat without paying a single fine, bribe, or robber... now he must pay every ALP, ANP, Taliban, Hesb-i Islami, and general criminal a toll to get where he's going - and its not improbable that he hits them all within the stretch of Highway 2 from Jalriz to Kabul. Obviously, this is a tame excuse to warrant a regime change, but its something that happens. I go into much deeper reasons Accidental Alchemy, but ultimately I'll defer back to my opening. If we want a different thing for people we love in Afghanistan, get them out of there, but its time that Afghanistan decide its own fate - something that hasn't happened but for a brief period following 1747. Those are the thoughts of a feraingee anyway haha.


A smart one and a noninterventionalist one at that. Good for you.

Wowra

x

[Admin Khan]

You have to validate that statement. Its actually a very unscientific one to make. The Pew data does mean a very important thing: it means that a representative sample of the populace holds a particular opinion about their view on governance and what sort of penal code they want in place. Illiteracy and backwardsness do not trump the right of even the illiterate (remember the Prophet Mohammad was illiterate) and those the tribal (code word for backward/rural these days) to have the right to the way of life they desire.

The representative sample is illiterate, and most likely does NOT understand what is good for them. If you were to conduct a survey in North Korea, they would claim the president being God is what is best for them; such surveys hold weight in educated societies where critical thinking is established; dragging Science into this is illogical.


Quit the contrary. The overwhelming majority of the evidence, analyzed by the University of Maryland shows that Muslim populaces appreciate and commend other nations for advancements and technological prowess. That however has no bearing on their opinion of how adultery should be punished (Afghans by the way were the most likely in the Pew data to support the rajm practice)
I never said Muslims don't appreciate advancements and technology BA, re-read what I wrote. I said during the Taliban Era, I myself witnessed talk along the lines of "Cellphones with screens that have graphics are Haram because in the day of Judgement Allah would ask you why you invented creatures". So the fact of the matter is, in a war torn country, such surveys do absolutely nothing. Offer an Afghan peace and jobs, with the promise of sustainable growth, and he is all yours. Such surveys, similar to the ones NATO conducts, hold once again no weight. It is silly to assume they have any meaning to them, or to make anything out of them. You can literally buy an Afghan nowadays, not sure when was the last time you visited Kandahar.

So I am sorry but I think we have a lot we can learn from rural people in terms of values and in terms of devotedness and bravery. I personally dont think that we have the right to call ourselves "intelligent diaspora" and view them as "backwards" creatures in need of our saving.

Sometimes we need to wake up and call a spade, a spade. There is no doubt that our elders possess wisdom, but the youth needs more than just fairy tale stories, it needs the intelligent diaspora, who are professionals in their field, to bring back what they have learned and share it. Israel is one of the leading countries in the world because of its diaspora who returned and helped build leading, cutting-edge institutions. So I'm sorry to say but given this 30 years of war, it is silly to romanticize the past and assume that our elders are nothing more than illiterate folks, hence Afghanistan ranking the least in just about any ranking imaginable, blame it on intervention or whatever(that's another discussion)but the fact of the matter is the following:
The nation is backwards, and it needs you and others to help advance it. Else, mark my words Afghanistan will remain in the stone age for years to come.

In regards to Iran and Pakistan situation, I think Salma Dam speaks for its self, but we can expand upon that discussion at a later time, since it would divert from the current theme.