Tableeghi Jumat: the indirect cause of extremism and terrorism

[Badlun]

these guys have been attacked by salafi inspired groups in pakistan, so equating the 2 is nonsense. i am not a supporter of this movement but i won't make false statements on them either. if disregarding the dunya is the means in which suicide bombers are created, then you would have sufis blowing themselves up all over the place. real sufis, not toramana sufis.

Yes I agree that Tableeghi Jumat is opposed in Paksitan by Brelvis, some Taliban Jumat Islami and may be some Salafis as mentioned above. Tableeghis are also not allowed to work in full groups in Saudi. Brelvis oppose them because of their Salafi beliefs and Taliban/Salafis oppose them because of their non violent approach while JI oppose them because of their disinterest in Jihad and politics.

But all these groups converge on the point to make the society highly religious so that some group(Tableeghis) make people other-worldly, JI/Taliban establish an Islamic state,Slafis to make people puritans/obscurantists/fundamentalists and brelvis(comparatively better group) to make people followers of Sunna in letter and spirit. The ultimate result is an obscure ,regressive ,conservative and traditional society instead of a modern, developed, democratic and progressive society or polity.

Sufis are not ascetics. They do not renounce or denounce world. If you read Osho on Sufism, it will become crystal clear that asceticism and Sufism are two different things. Sufism can be compared to mysticism, spiritualism, intuition, new age movements but never to asceticism.

We can have this debate some where else but please remember that Sufis love the world, the humanity and the Creator. They are the paragons of beauty, incarnation of love and servants of God and Humanity. Suicide for them is a major sin. Salafi Taliban while Tableeghis converted into Taliban consider Suicide as Jihad but Sufis love life not otherwise.

Randolph can you please tell me why you oppose Tableeghi Jumat for your own reasons?

[Friend]

Badlun... you are a liar and a stuborn guy repeating the same thing again and again as we have seen you in other threads with Barakzai wror. You do not have any ground for what you are saying. he told me this and he told me that lool.
I asked you the people who killed highest number people on this earth, were they tablihhees or Muslims? For your information the graduated from these contemporary universities snd colleges so the most dangerous tools of the destruction of this world are made in these universities. so why dont you write against these uni and thos monsters of killings? But we all know that you hate Islam and Muslims. no matter how good they become.

[DaZahroJaam.]

for instance, afghanistan2010 claims that he studies chemical engineering. i think the government should keep a keen eye on him and others with similar political beliefs as his. and it's true that most of those involved in acts of terrorism these days have managed to blend themselves in various fields , specially that of technology.
thank you for bringing that to everyone's attention, "friend". that was very kind of you.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Sufis are not ascetics. They do not renounce or denounce world. If you read Osho on Sufism, it will become crystal clear that asceticism and Sufism are two different things. Sufism can be compared to mysticism, spiritualism, intuition, new age movements but never to asceticism.

We can have this debate some where else but please remember that Sufis love the world, the humanity and the Creator. They are the paragons of beauty, incarnation of love and servants of God and Humanity. Suicide for them is a major sin. Salafi Taliban while Tableeghis converted into Taliban consider Suicide as Jihad but Sufis love life not otherwise.

Randolph can you please tell me why you oppose Tableeghi Jumat for your own reasons?

Sufism and Shariah


Assalamu alaikum,

A good article on this:

http://www.haqq.com.au/~salam/sufishar/sufishar.html

Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi

Assalamu alaikum,

The Shari`ah is of fundamental importance to the Sufi path. This point is very strongly made by the great Naqshbandi Sufi, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi (also known as Imam ar-Rabbani), in his letters. Here is a small excerpt from one of his letters, where he clarifies this topic:

The Shari`ah has three parts: knowledge, action, and sincerity of motive (ikhlas); unless you fulfil the demands of all these parts, you do not obey the Shari`ah. And when you obey the Shari`ah you obtain the pleasure of God, which is the most supreme good in this world and the Hereafter. The Qur'an says: "The pleasure of God is the highest good." Hence, the Shari`ah comprehends all the good of this world and the next, and nothing is left out for which one has to go beyond the Shari`ah.

The tariqah ["way"] and the haqiqah["reality"] for which the Sufis are known, are subservient to the Shari`ah, as they help to realize its third part, namely, sincerity. Hence they are sought in order to fulfil the Shari`ah, not to achieve something beyond the Shari`ah. The raptures and ecstasies which the Sufis experience, and the ideas and truths which come to them in the course of their journey, are not the goal of Sufism. They are rather myths and fancies on which the children of Sufism are fed. One has to pass over them all and reach the stage of satisfaction (rida) which is the final goal ofsuluk ["travelling", i.e. the Sufi path] andjadhbah ["overwhelming love"]. The purpose of traversing the stages of of tariqah and haqiqah is nothing other than the realisation of ikhlas which involves the attainment of rida. Only one out of a thousand Sufis is graced with the three illuminations (tajalliyat sih ganah) and gnostic visions, given ikhlas and elevated to the stage of rida.

[Quoted from "Sufism and Shari`ah: A study of Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi's Effort to Reform Sufism," by Muhammad Abdul Haq Ansari, pp. 221-2. Originally from Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi's letters, Vol. I:36.]

[Afghanistan2010]

for instance, afghanistan2010 claims that he studies chemical engineering. i think the government should keep a keen eye on him and others with similar political beliefs as his. and it's true that most of those involved in acts of terrorism these days have managed to blend themselves in various fields , specially that of technology.
thank you for bringing that to everyone's attention, "friend". that was very kind of you.

Maybe,but will start working in coming future for the government in helping them finding murderers and unveiling crimes i can earn alot and it is a good deed by vanishing crimes,busting criminals through my knowledge,forensic science is something beautiful.

[Friend]

Sufism and Shariah


Assalamu alaikum,

A good article on this:

Sufism and Shari`ah, from Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi

Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi

Assalamu alaikum,

The Shari`ah is of fundamental importance to the Sufi path. This point is very strongly made by the great Naqshbandi Sufi, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi (also known as Imam ar-Rabbani), in his letters. Here is a small excerpt from one of his letters, where he clarifies this topic:

The Shari`ah has three parts: knowledge, action, and sincerity of motive (ikhlas); unless you fulfil the demands of all these parts, you do not obey the Shari`ah. And when you obey the Shari`ah you obtain the pleasure of God, which is the most supreme good in this world and the Hereafter. The Qur'an says: "The pleasure of God is the highest good." Hence, the Shari`ah comprehends all the good of this world and the next, and nothing is left out for which one has to go beyond the Shari`ah.

The tariqah ["way"] and the haqiqah["reality"] for which the Sufis are known, are subservient to the Shari`ah, as they help to realize its third part, namely, sincerity. Hence they are sought in order to fulfil the Shari`ah, not to achieve something beyond the Shari`ah. The raptures and ecstasies which the Sufis experience, and the ideas and truths which come to them in the course of their journey, are not the goal of Sufism. They are rather myths and fancies on which the children of Sufism are fed. One has to pass over them all and reach the stage of satisfaction (rida) which is the final goal ofsuluk ["travelling", i.e. the Sufi path] andjadhbah ["overwhelming love"]. The purpose of traversing the stages of of tariqah and haqiqah is nothing other than the realisation of ikhlas which involves the attainment of rida. Only one out of a thousand Sufis is graced with the three illuminations (tajalliyat sih ganah) and gnostic visions, given ikhlas and elevated to the stage of rida.

[Quoted from "Sufism and Shari`ah: A study of Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi's Effort to Reform Sufism," by Muhammad Abdul Haq Ansari, pp. 221-2. Originally from Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi's letters, Vol. I:36.]

Hahaha well Badlun have not studied the books written by sufis and about sufiism. go and read kashful mahjoob, ahyaul uloo and many other books.

[faye]

This is another debate however briefly I will say that Taliban are just a terrorist group and do not represent any movement of independence or struggle against a foreign invasion.

All Afghans are not Taliban and all Taliban are not Afghans. We have an established Afghan government against Taliban. All non Pashtuns(about 40 to 50 %) Afghans are against Taliban. All Pashtuns are also not Taliban. There are non Afghan Taliban as in Pakistan as well as groups like in Mali who are not Taliban but have the same ideology and the same approach. Thus Taliban is the name of a trans Afghan ideology and movement.

If Americans are in Afghanistan to control the region then why are they leaving in 2014? Why they do not make Afghanistan their permanent Territory so that to guard their interests for ever.

Americans are not there as invaders but helpers of Afghans, the world and their own selves to get rid of the menace of Taliban. If they were invaders then we would have seen a national Afghan movement against them not only Taliban who may not represent even 5% of the Afghan population.

so any person who fights against an invasion of their country, is a terrorist?

i agree that not all afghans wanted taliban in control. we have had thousands of hazaras escaping to australia, for years.

badlun, you are a very naive person, to have such faith in the goodness and charity of the american military and government.
let us see. they have not left yet but have helped their agribusiness mates take a foothold in iraq and afghanistan.

[Toramana]

Wooo----Revolution through treason is on again---Lol

There is no doubt that Tablighis are one of the most useless lot on the face of earth---They preach fatalism, withdrawal from life, asceticism, etc. And you find only the uneducated, ignorant in metaphorical sense, underachieved, etc. etc. like Friend (emkhan) in Tabligh. Tablighis are also most of the time morally very corrupt---

[Friend]

Wooo----Revolution through treason is on again---Lol

There is no doubt that Tablighis are one of the most useless lot on the face of earth---They preach fatalism, withdrawal from life, asceticism, etc. And you find only the uneducated, ignorant in metaphorical sense, underachieved, etc. etc. like Friend (emkhan) in Tabligh. Tablighis are also most of the time morally very corrupt---

But i have not seen a single tablighi who is sitting idle, He must be involved in some business or any other activity. I have not seen a single tablighi who has stopped his child from going to school. Doctors, engineers and people from every walk of life are coming to tabligh. If they were stopping people from worldly activities then they would be the poorest class of the society. But we can see that they are well fed people of the society. Yes they do tell people to not to do corruption, dont earn by haraam means, try your level best to prevent yourself from "behayayi", offer five times a day prayer unlike your secular thugs who teach their children how to do corruption, how to spread behayayi in the society, how to drink, how to promote homoesexuals, how to increase divorce rate in the society, how to make people dace, how to kill in the name of ethnicity.

[faye]

so, toramana, about 150 million tablighis are morally very corrupt, most of the time? and you know this because.........you observed and counted? there are statistics on this?

[Badlun]

Badlun... you are a liar and a stuborn guy repeating the same thing again and again as we have seen you in other threads with Barakzai wror. You do not have any ground for what you are saying. he told me this and he told me that lool.
I asked you the people who killed highest number people on this earth, were they tablihhees or Muslims? For your information the graduated from these contemporary universities snd colleges so the most dangerous tools of the destruction of this world are made in these universities. so why dont you write against these uni and thos monsters of killings? But we all know that you hate Islam and Muslims. no matter how good they become.

My dear friend when one does not like a standpoint, it seems that the other is stubborn and repeating the same thing. I understand it. Its natural.

I respect barakzai. He is a knowledgable person but we have difference of opinion. He like JI or Akhwans considers Quran or Islam a complete code of life while I consider Quran a book of only religion and Islam only a religion not a complete system. I tried to prove all this right from Quran that there are no details about other aspects of life except beliefs, modes of worship and ethics.

Difference of opinion is natural. Thats why we have at the same time Taliban, Salafis, Sufis, hanafis, malikis, Sunnis, Shias, so many groups of Mujahideen, Secular, atheists, so many islamic parties, so many sects. Let us understand each other, tolerate each other and share for learning.

As I said earlier I denounce terrorism if perpetrated by any one, a university graduate , a tableeghi or a talib. All are equal criminals. The issue is that Taliban do it in an organized way in the name of Islam, Tableeghis do it indirectly but in a massive way.

[Badlun]

Sufism and Shariah


Assalamu alaikum,

A good article on this:

http://www.haqq.com.au/~salam/sufishar/sufishar.html

Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi

Assalamu alaikum,

The Shari`ah is of fundamental importance to the Sufi path. This point is very strongly made by the great Naqshbandi Sufi, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi (also known as Imam ar-Rabbani), in his letters. Here is a small excerpt from one of his letters, where he clarifies this topic:

The Shari`ah has three parts: knowledge, action, and sincerity of motive (ikhlas); unless you fulfil the demands of all these parts, you do not obey the Shari`ah. And when you obey the Shari`ah you obtain the pleasure of God, which is the most supreme good in this world and the Hereafter. The Qur'an says: "The pleasure of God is the highest good." Hence, the Shari`ah comprehends all the good of this world and the next, and nothing is left out for which one has to go beyond the Shari`ah.

The tariqah ["way"] and the haqiqah["reality"] for which the Sufis are known, are subservient to the Shari`ah, as they help to realize its third part, namely, sincerity. Hence they are sought in order to fulfil the Shari`ah, not to achieve something beyond the Shari`ah. The raptures and ecstasies which the Sufis experience, and the ideas and truths which come to them in the course of their journey, are not the goal of Sufism. They are rather myths and fancies on which the children of Sufism are fed. One has to pass over them all and reach the stage of satisfaction (rida) which is the final goal ofsuluk ["travelling", i.e. the Sufi path] andjadhbah ["overwhelming love"]. The purpose of traversing the stages of of tariqah and haqiqah is nothing other than the realisation of ikhlas which involves the attainment of rida. Only one out of a thousand Sufis is graced with the three illuminations (tajalliyat sih ganah) and gnostic visions, given ikhlas and elevated to the stage of rida.

[Quoted from "Sufism and Shari`ah: A study of Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi's Effort to Reform Sufism," by Muhammad Abdul Haq Ansari, pp. 221-2. Originally from Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi's letters, Vol. I:36.]

Sheikh Ahmad Sirhindi or the so called Mujadad Alaf Sani was a sufi but he believed in Wahdatul Shahood not Wahadatul Wajood. He is opposed by many sufis especially by Qadris and Brelivis as they consider him the one who had gone astray. He is considered the founder of two nations theory and Pakistanis trace the idea of Pakistan in the teachings of this Sheikh.

Sarhindi is considered to be the pioneer of Deobandism and the one who prepared the way for Faraizi movement, Salafism and Wahabism in India. I personally do not consider him an authority on sufism and do not follow his school of thought. He is the one who inspired the Mujahideen tahreek od Syed Ahmad who was the first terrorist and brought the ideas of Wahabism to Pashtuns. Who was killed by Sikhs and Pashtuns in Balakot Pakistan.

[Badlun]

Hahaha well Badlun have not studied the books written by sufis and about sufiism. go and read kashful mahjoob, ahyaul uloo and many other books.

It will be a surprize for you that I have read completely kashful mahjoob of Data Ganj bakhsh, kimyaye saadat,summary of Ahyaul Uloom of Imam Ghazali , Shariyat wa tareeqat of Ashraf Ali thanawi, masnawi maulana Rum and many other books on sufism.

Also I have read all the lectures of Osho on Sufism who is an authority on sufism and spiritualism. Also I read the Noor bakhshi teachings on Sufism. Ismailis, and other shia sects also have good literature on sufism which I have consulted. Still I need many other books to study because sufism is an ocean.

Tableeghis only talk of zikar but they never go in the profound depths of mysticism. They are very superficial people. I have met few tableeghis who are inspired from the deobandi sufis and some times you may find the book shairiat wa tariqat with them which is again a try to make tareeqat subservient to the so called shariyat.

[Friend]

It will be a surprize for you that I have read completely kashful mahjoob of Data Ganj bakhsh, kimyaye saadat,summary of Ahyaul Uloom of Imam Ghazali , Shariyat wa tareeqat of Ashraf Ali thanawi, masnawi maulana Rum and many other books on sufism.

Also I have read all the lectures of Osho on Sufism who is an authority on sufism and spiritualism. Also I read the Noor bakhshi teachings on Sufism. Ismailis, and other shia sects also have good literature on sufism which I have consulted. Still I need many other books to study because sufism is an ocean.

Tableeghis only talk of zikar but they never go in the profound depths of mysticism. They are very superficial people. I have met few tableeghis who are inspired from the deobandi sufis and some times you may find the book shairiat wa tariqat with them which is again a try to make tareeqat subservient to the so called shariyat.

If you have read all those books then did you find any scientific research or formulae in those book or did they encourage you to science and sophisticated learning ? For which you blame tabligh and other Muslims to not go into scientific research and this and that ?

[Badlun]

If you have read all those books then did you find any scientific research or formulae in those book or did they encourage you to science and sophisticated learning ? For which you blame tabligh and other Muslims to not go into scientific research and this and that ?

This is a very good query. It seems now I will be able to explain my position in a better way.

I am for specialization not generalization. Every body for his due work. Even give the devil his due share. Sufis are for spiritual purposes and their work is to cater for the spiritual needs of the society not scientific, political, economic, cultural, social or others.

Scientists for science, philosophers for philosophy, politicians for politics, artists for art, social workers for society, Taliban or Mullas or priests for religion and so on.

I oppose Taliban because they want to control every thing ;politics, economics, society, culture, education, religion etc.

I oppose Tableeghis because they want to impose religion on society and culture. Swat and karak are test cases. There Tableeghis are dominant and they have influenced the culture and society totally if not politics so far. You will not find Pashtun culture or social norms there. Even marriages are now like mourning. No celebrations are observed.

I dream of a Pashtun society where education is secular, modern and creative, where democracy is politics, where free market with social ends is economy, where Pashtunwali is culture and society and where Islam is the religion with spirituality and sufism. Yes religious education can be imparted but on limited basis only for preparing mullas and taeching fundamentals of Islam to general populace.