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**Admin Khan** · 06-26-2012, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post

I think thats reasonable. It seems like this thread was just one big emotional catharsis without much contributing set of facts. I have now asked for the data 3 times about proof with respect to the Durrani monarchy taxing the KP tribes specifically at greater costs than the Ghilzai, Kharoti, Khostwalaan, etc. I would understand if these was a specific citable policy from Tarikh e Ahmad Shahi or some great text which said: and the Orakzai and Wazir and Dawar and Mehsud and Khattak etc were taxed to a greater extent... but I have not seen that. To the contrary, it appears that if anything was unfair it was unfair across the spectrum, i.e. as Haris has said, if the Kabul government of the time was bad to one tribe, they were generally being bad to others as well, indicating this was not a specific policy to piss off specific tribes.

That's what bothered me the most, which sort of resulted in my outburst at his diatribes against Pashtuns. When you request evidence, you get a circular argument full of a verbal diarrhea. No evidence, no facts, no nothing. Just a new can of worms, along with the "You sold us, you taxed us more, we are not this, that blah blah, you prove this first before I show you my proof, I have better socks than you, etc". Our Pakistani this, our Pakistani that when no one has mentioned that Pashtuns of Afghanistan are better, in any shape or form than the Pashtuns of Pakistan. We are the SAME people, with the SAME blood.
It's sad, it really is.

**Toramana** · 06-26-2012, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Arooj Khan View Post

such a mean point by a mean person !!!!!
well we both don't care about that and the administators are requsted to give the proof of my inbox that
we didn't exchange such nonsense (lomri ki chalaki dikhany ke nakam koshish ki or khud ko gadha sabit ker dia )
waisy tum jaisy shakhs se yahi tawaqo rakhi ja sakti he . Havi doesn't need a lady to depend on . tum jaison k ley wo akela
hi kafi he hahaha
an outsider????? its something like that a man is slaughtering his own brother in his house and when an "outsider "
is trying to fend him then he says don't interfere let me slaughter him my best way .got my point??? he is a true PAKISTANI
not a traitor like you .

OK Madam. If that is the case, well and good. What I said was only a hunch not said with any sarcasm or bad intentions. For me as a liberal secularist it is every body's innate right irrespective of gender or creed to interact, support each other, and stand united in a cause. Also, hvZSultan may be (questionably) bright but doesn't know Pashto much and may be in need of support from those sharing his views.

Obviously, with your apparent traditionalist mindset moulded seemingly by the intellectually-confined (if not arresting) Pakistan school/social environment, you cannot understand liberal-secularist values ----and probably see "hidden meanings" in what others say.

Rest, your patriotic motivation/inspiration may be coming from hvZSultan but I have found him only skin-deep as for his views are concerned. The guy takes into account a few cases to generalize and gives much weight to one factor while building his argument---may be due to dishonesty (a common problem with Subcontinental Muslims) or poor reasoning skills.

I also was one a Pakistani patriot like you. But as I explored I found what I have been taught and told is not even half-truth ( rather blatant lies and distortion of history). One should find truth for one's self instead of becoming dependent on others in terms of knowledge and motivation.

And yes I am (first and foremost) a Pashtun patriot instead of Pakistani and have loyalty to Pan-Pashtun cause. You are hell-free to call me a traitor.

**pashtun_rise** · 06-26-2012, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post

I think thats reasonable. It seems like this thread was just one big emotional catharsis without much contributing set of facts. I have now asked for the data 3 times about proof with respect to the Durrani monarchy taxing the KP tribes specifically at greater costs than the Ghilzai, Kharoti, Khostwalaan, etc. I would understand if these was a specific citable policy from Tarikh e Ahmad Shahi or some great text which said: and the Orakzai and Wazir and Dawar and Mehsud and Khattak etc were taxed to a greater extent... but I have not seen that. To the contrary, it appears that if anything was unfair it was unfair across the spectrum, i.e. as Haris has said, if the Kabul government of the time was bad to one tribe, they were generally being bad to others as well, indicating this was not a specific policy to piss off specific tribes.

When did we say only our tribe was suffered...? And i combine facts with history too..now that you yourself are admitting that the dynasty was bad for all tribes...of that time.For sure...something went wrong at that time...that led to this division.The tribes were not bad...but some of our leaders were.Sincere were few.

**BarakzaiAbdali** · 06-26-2012, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by pashtun_rise View Post

When did we say only our tribe was suffered...? And i combine facts with history too..now that you yourself are admitting that the dynasty was bad for all tribes...of that time.For sure...something went wrong at that time...that led to this division.The tribes were not bad...but some of our leaders were.Sincere were few.

Yeah but the argument put forth was that these sets of customs/laws preferences drove the KP Pashtun tribes into the hands of Pakistan - thats what I am asking for proof of since it would require us seeing that such policies were seen by the tribes of the locale as specifically centric and preferring the tribes in the UN bordered modern Afghan state.

**pashtun_rise** · 06-26-2012, 11:22 PM

True...i ve posted the link already in previous posts...if u can have the patience to look..everything in it.

**pashtun_rise** · 06-26-2012, 11:24 PM

I would appreciate that if afghan govt look for such policies that will enrich every tribe with equality,justice...inshAllah m hopeful.

**haviZsultan** · 06-27-2012, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post

I am very confused by this schizophrenic thread. What is the argument about, is it:

4) Is it that, similar to how a Hazara or Tajik is called an Afghan national if born in Afghanistan, that a Pashtun is a Pakistani national if he is born in Pakistan? Or was the conclusion that he cannot call himself a Pakistani national?
5) Is the Hazara or the Tajik also considered brainwashed if he calls himself an Afghan? Or should he refer to himself as an Afghan National? I.e. Can a Tajik in Tajikistan tell a Tajik in Afghanistan that to call himself Afghan is brainwashing and that either he must revert to calling himself Tajik or an Afghan national?

Brilliant point. So question is how do the Afghans have a right to call Pakistani Pashtuns brainwashed. I think Admin does not understand how hypocritical it is to take the right of the Pakistani Pashtun to call himself Pakistani while applying the exact same logic to the Tajik, Hazaras and Uzbeks to claim they are Afghan.

Originally posted by sunni View Post

LOL lier!!

What part of that was "Punjabi" my extremely smart Jihadi friend.

**abassinafghan** · 06-27-2012, 08:38 AM

there is a hughe difference ,

nearly all /majority of those tajiks , uzbeks and turkmens came as refugees ,in 2 waves ,first fall of the sultanats of samarcand and buchara , second wave after the october revolution and take over of the communists .

i can not remember since when pashtuns in pashtunistan aka nwfp have any duty of obiedence to pakistan ???? before 1947 there was no pakistan , and pashtunistan was not liberated by ali jinah or any other british raj agent . and they were no refugees in their own lands

its pashtuns hack and they dont have to ask or please any one for their god given right of selfdetermination !!!!!!

**haviZsultan** · 06-27-2012, 08:39 AM

Okay, this part of my post is a response to BLS-the admin guy... dunno his name.

You said Abdur Rehman Khan is our king too-the king of the lar Pashtuns. I tend to totally disagree.

Here often Afghan bullies use the example of Bangladesh one of the worst, most horrible disasters in the eyes of a Pakistani. For the Afghan its fun to kick a man who is grovelling in the dirt nonetheless. It hurts us greatly which is why Arooj probably pulled up that post on Indian customs deemed backward in our land after revolution showed us the mirror (He did because we indeed did all that but of course it hurt.)

If you want to rape a Pakistani and throw him in a ditch you pick up the Bangladesh card something that is supposed to hurt every loyal Pakistani very badly.

So lets take an example from there. East Pakistanis and west Pakistanis lived and died together in one union which was the largest state of Muslims in the world (320 Million-less at that time)... however they were divided call it by Indian designs or whatever just as Pakhtunkhwa was divided on British designs.

Now their leaders may have been the same as ours before 1971 but are they the same now? No they are Mujib Ur Rehman, Sheikh Hasina etc.

The Bangladeshis will beat anyone up who says Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (I hate the guy), Yahya Khan and Tikka Khan are their leaders instead of Mujib Ur Rehman. Now till a point it may have been true that the Bangladeshis considered Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto but that was only till 1971 when he betrayed them (and all Pakistanis-so may the ******* rot in hell for what he did in Bangladesh)

The parallels can be drawn to the break up of Afghanistan except the Afghans still haven't given up on the idea that the regions south of the Durrand line are theirs.

Abdur Rehman Khan may have been our leader before 1893 but he was a leader no more but a traitor the moment he sold our lands to the British. Now look at the Bangladesh example... no matter how much we Pakistanis cry, beg or shout we were one the Bangladeshis will never come back to us. They know ordinary Pakistanis were not at fault just as the Pakistani Pashtuns know that ordinary bar Pashtuns were not at fault but it is something that will never happen because Pakistani Pashtuns are now happy as they are just as the Bangladeshis.

THIS is what actually needs to be-sorry for the term-drilled into the head of the hard-headed Afghan. You won't get those lands back. Done is done.

The same is with the Abdur Rehman Khan and the leaders that came after him. lar and bar Pashtuns history takes seperate paths from here. The lar Pashtuns become Pakistani Pashtuns and the bar Pashtuns become or remain Afghans.

And in Bangladesh it is only now that people are looking at the ideology of Quaid E Azam and questioning... hey Zulfiqar was a douche but was the ideology of Pakistan of Muslim freedom against biased treatment from another religious group right or wrong? Ask Asad71 and he may give some insight on this. But the same point even if they are questioning things they never want to go back to a union with Pakistan-I have met a few jamaati's who do but most don't!

From this you may also understand why we can never love the Indians just as the Afghans can never love the British. They did exactly what the British did. Which is why Pashtun_rise is so hurt by revolutions belief that Indians instead of Pakistanis are a better ally.

Even I am hurt by this and sometimes doubt whether relations can develop given the circumstances.

Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post

If someone is born within the boundaries of Afghanistan, he/she is an Afghan national. To claim that invalidates Afghan = Pashtun is as pathetic as claiming if your son is born in Russia, ethnic Russians or ethnic Germans are no longer German. Like I said, even if a Sudanese is born in Herat, he is an Afghan national. That doesn't, however, mean he is a Pashtun. There is a saying amongst us; Every Pashtun is an Afghan, but every Afghan is not a Pashtun. Read some historical books, or ask your government next time you swing back, and all the other things I mentioned earlier to you. Nice talking to you as always.

Take care.

I don't know why it is so hard for me to explain to you that this sounds like total hypocrisy and utter emotional blackmail. No wonder the Afghans have been getting away with each and every offense and act of bullying. The moment a Pakistani Pashtun begins to reply to their illogical claims they pull out the Afghan=Pashtun card and claim they are insulting themselves. What a crafty, cunning and devious way of dealing with the opposition.

You can't accept Afghanistan in its civic sense then go on to take it in its ethnic sense as well. Pakistani Pashtuns are wary of this and most smarter ones realize it for the trick it is.

Also why not resolve the real problems. I don't see whats wrong with kicking the other races out. Are you afraid of losing some land?

Please. Take one for the lar Pashtuns. They have taken one for you ever since the damned Abdur Rehman Khan threw them away suffering from 1893 till 1947 under British rule. More than 50 years. If those Pashtuns suffered so much and struggled so hard against the British then why is the Afghan unwilling to make a small sacrifice?

Plus it will strengthen your claims... till now it seems you are only using the term Afghan=Pashtun to increase political maneuvering and claim the lands south of the durand line.

Many Pakistani Pashtuns will have no problem accepting Afghan=Pashtun if it isn't used as a tool for political gains and claiming the southern lands. Infact I already mentioned what reply a guy made who I requested to come to the forum. Why not accept that a Pashtun can also be Pakistani and the history of Pashtuns is also the history of Pakistanis as Afghanis_hehe suggested just as you accept that a Tajik doesn't have to be a Tajikistani or an Uzbek Uzbekistani. Why the daul standards?

Sounds like some hypocrisy to me. The moment I have pulled up the term Pakistani Pashtun the same daul standards have been applied.

Also it would be much easier to come to an agreement over the terms we use. Pakistani Pashtun=Lar Pashtun and Afghan Pashtun=Bar Pashtun.

You know I won't stop using the term webbie.

**haviZsultan** · 06-27-2012, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by pashtun_rise View Post

I would appreciate that if afghan govt look for such policies that will enrich every tribe with equality,justice...inshAllah m hopeful.

Why would they ever do that? Their primary concern is declaring war on Pakistan and taking their lands back... even if the Pashtuns in Pakistan don't even want that.

**pashtun_rise** · 06-27-2012, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by abassinafghan View Post

there is a hughe difference ,

nearly all /majority of those tajiks , uzbeks and turkmens came as refugees ,in 2 waves ,first fall of the sultanats of samarcand and buchara , second wave after the october revolution and take over of the communists .

i can not remember since when pashtuns in pashtunistan aka nwfp have any duty of obiedence to pakistan ???? before 1947 there was no pakistan , and pashtunistan was not liberated by ali jinah or any other british raj agent . and they were no refugees in their own lands

its pashtuns hack and they dont have to ask or please any one for their god given right of selfdetermination !!!!!!

We are happy to be with pakistan than with afghanistan....because of the behavior and response we got here.I CLAIM THAT AND I CHALLENGE ANYONE...to come forward and put an insult to my paki nationality....the moment you guys do it..we paki pashtuns ll leave this forum...We got deceived by this forum by the name "Pashtun forum"...while its name should be "Afghan forum"...or in other words "Bar pashtuns forum".

**pashtun_rise** · 06-27-2012, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by haviZsultan View Post

Why would they ever do that? Their primary concern is declaring war on Pakistan and taking their lands back... even if the Pashtuns in Pakistan don't even want that.

Leave havi...we cant change their thinkings....cant change the way they hate us...Better think we are not afghans and leave them for what they want.We are happy to be with our pak...even if its a failed state.I am seriously leaving this forum in a day or so.I have told the admin too.I am a very straightforward person with a straight mentality.I d appreciate a nonmuslim for his/her true nature than to appreciate a muslim being hateful or lier.I am seeing many religiously misguided people too here.Let them search for truth by themselves.

**faye** · 06-27-2012, 08:57 AM

the advantages for you are obviously superior to what has been available to the afghan side, so they should understand why you feel for pakistan. most of the people here are in western countries and many appear to not respect where they are or the people who created the secular and liberal societies they have moved to. so some of the members probably have an exaggerated idea of their loyalty to afghanistan, whilst very few say they even want to return to live in afghanistan.

**haviZsultan** · 06-27-2012, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by pashtun_rise View Post

Leave havi...we cant change their thinkings....cant change the way they hate us...Better think we are not afghans and leave them for what they want.We are happy to be with our pak...even if its a failed state.I am seriously leaving this forum in a day or so.I have told the admin too.I am a very straightforward person with a straight mentality.I d appreciate a nonmuslim for his/her true nature than to appreciate a muslim being hateful or lier.I am seeing many religiously misguided people too here.Let them search for truth by themselves.

Pashtun rise I would request not to leave. This is how these guys bully every Pakistani-each and everyone to leave the forum eventually... there was another half-punjabi, half-pashtun... they did the same thing to him. His crime was he was a patriotic Pakistani and half a Punjabi even though his knowledge of Pashtun history was superb.

The Afghans couldn't deal with the fact that 30 million Pakistani Pashtuns had more claim to Afghan history than 12 Million Afghans... so one day something weird happened and he just couldn't log in to his account. Ahmed Shah Abdali were all born in Mianwali (Many Pashtun leaders were born in Mianwali and parts of Pakistani Pakhtunkhwa) If Pakistan's history is the history of all its races including Pashtuns, Sindhis and Baluchs then the history of Ahmed Shah Abdali is also our history-Pakistani Pashtun history... but these Afghans couldn't handle that. They abused Jinnah left and right. And eventually got him out.

Frankly to be truthful I think the attitudes of the foul mouthed Afghans have improved a lot since I started taking them and refuting their rubbish. Slowly things can improve but only if you stay. Otherwise I will be alone again and the environment will slowly revert back to what it was.

PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE. The more Pakistani Pashtuns leave the weaker our opinions on this site gets. Espaxai and son of mountains left and the Afghans are now having a field day. The more we leave the more these guys can claim Pakistani Pashtuns are nothing and there are only Pashtuns from Pakhtunkhwa waiting for Afghan armies to liberate them. Unfortunately this is what everyone of these guys believe. Its like a broken transistor radio "Nothing such as Pakistani Pashtuns... Pashtuns of Pakhtunkhwa waiting to be liberated by Afghans..." and it goes on and on.

Don't you think this is a tiresome task for me... trying to drill some sense into these guys heads even though I am hated for it? Come on man. Don't do this to me and Arooj. The moment you leave they will label you another Paki who ran away.