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  • Originally posted by Toramana View Post
    Let me say a reply to this.

    First, we all know it is a universal principle of power that no state or geopolitical entity likes to sell its territory to another power for that is not only against a state's or country's national pride/sovereignty but also its strategic interests and security (for the hegemonic state may be tempted to demand more). States and country's rather (universally) try to expand their territories and power. A country or a ruler surrenders territory to another power when forced. This is exactly what happened in the case of Amir Abdur Rahman Khan who was forced by an imperial power with domination on most of the globe to sign the Durand Line agreement.
    You cannot purely blame the British. If these Northerners had stood up for us. We would have fallen together... but we would be together. That was a pathetic attempt to save their own selves. They even got Kandahar back for it.

    Now they think we are slaves. Even though no one fought the British harder than southern Pashtuns. History is proof of this. The Karlanri federation, constant rebellions in Pakhtunkhwa... we fought like dogs but they don't count that. Don't you realize they are killing our history and passing it off as their own. Can't you see that they view our people as lesser Pashtuns?

    You obviously can't because you are driven by your hatred for Pakistan so far that you can't think critically. Even if you know you will ignore it.

    Of course that will be until the day they brush you under the carpet despite the fact you were the first one calling for Pashtun unity and the Afghans did nothing while you did all the work for it.

    I had a friend of a friend who reverted from Pashtun Nationalist to Pakistani. My biggest mistake was destroying my own contact base and reputation (I suffered from a disaster and its not my fault but I should have explained my perspective better.) I would have as the ex leader of the PNA-Canada chapter even arranged to have him on this forum.

    Tormana I can only say you are countering whatever hate you suffered from the Punjabis with hate yourself. This is a huge mistake. Pashtuns win people over with great hospitality and melmastia. Not by starting to spit on their own nation, their own sacrifices and calling our ancestors and warriors like Karnal Sher Khan mislead.

    I feel sorry for you now.

    In other words, any person who has an understanding of power/geopolitical dynamics will accept that every ruler without any exception tries to preserve and expand his/her power and territory let alone lose or sell it to another power until forced. If a ruler is forced by a hegemonic power to surrender its territory, he/she tries to surrender as less as possible (and, conversely, tries to retain as much as possible). This is almost the natural instinct of rulers. And that is exactly what Amir Abdur Rahman Khan did, a pragmatic and smart move for in the part retained i.e., Afghanistan in this case, Pashtun/Afghan power could be re-consolidated and identity and culture preserved and promoted----and ultimately a campaign launched to take back the part lost to the hegemonic power.


    There was nothing more lowly, more pathetic than what Amir Abdur Rahman Khan did, especially from a southern Nationalist Pashtuns perspective which I have seriously begun doubting that you are as soon as you made that comment. This just proves you are parroting the Afghans claims and have no originality... you want to move from (so-called) slavery of the Punjabis to slavery of the Northerners (Afghans-who happen to also include Tajiks Hazaras and Uzbeks now)

    If he hadn't done it you guys would be one. Maybe conquered by the British but there would be NO division, no durand line. Wasn't that what you wanted? Perhaps not as proven by your comment.

    What Abdur Rahman Khan did also pushes claims that Afghans make over the south right into the dustbin. It is totally UNFAIR to the Pakistani Pashtun that you abandon us at that time then come back a hundred years later when the Pakistani Pashtun went through a huge struggle against the British and for Pakistan and say we are one again.

    It sent the message that "hey when we didn't need you we threw you away to save us from Brits but when we need you we will come running back to you?" Is it fair. The Pakistani Pashtun has made his place in Pakistan, gotten jobs in governance and controls about 25% of the military for godsake. You want us to lose all of that for a foolish dream even though the Afghan threw us away like garbage. You guys aren't thinking Toramana. You are leading our race to suicide.

    This is nothing a real Pashtun Nationalist would want. Toramana you have constantly made ridiculous claims against me but you must be truthful about whether you are from the north or south.

    I don't know why it is so hard for Afghans to understand that after what they did. After we were separated by different history for 100 years it is totally UNFAIR to the Pakistani Pashtun that the Afghan comes running back again and says we are one.

    In fact, this lays at the heart of Pakistan's policy towards Pashtun and Afghanistan and the issues between the two states (compounded by the fact that Pakistan is a little Punjabi-Mahajar Empire than any pluralistic federalist state representing the aspiration of all the component nations i.e., Baluch, Pashtuns, Sindhis, etc.).


    Please. Please Toramana, you're giving me a headache. You have no alternative solutions to the perceived "hegemony", people like you obviously won't join the institutions to have a stronger Pashtun within Pakistan and take power from the Punjabi and Urdu speakers hands, you parrot Afghans and personally I hate to say it but I feel you are a disgrace to Pakhtunkhwa. Any Pashtun Nationalist claiming what Abdur Rahman Khan did was good can barely even be called a Pashtun Nationalist.

    It divided us forever. It was the start of the division between southern and northern Pashtun and the British had no part in it but solely the Afghans were to blame.

    No foreign power can divide us until Pashtuns themselves wanted to be divided. At that time the Afghans wanted us to be divided while we begged them not to... and today the Afghans want us to be one nation while we refuse to entertain their pleas... and for our own better that is.

    The Muhajir-Punjabi elite of Pakistan is living under the perpetual fear that should Afghanistan become stable and powerful, that would arouse nationalistic sentiments in Lar Pashtuns. Not only this; the Indic rulers also fear that should Pashtuns in Afghanistan or Pakistan become economically prosperous and educated, and develop/promote their culture and language, it would lead to the awakening of Pashtun national sentiments. They have, therefore, conspired to keep Pashtuns weak and erase Pashtun history and consciousness from the minds of Pashtun youth through state-controlled/designed education and curricula, official history, and media propaganda .


    People like you may witness a rude awakening. You are totally discounting the Pakistani Pashtun who will die a thousand deaths today but not let his land be divided. He has been "Pakistanized" completely.

    We don't believe the state tried to keep us weak. Instead I will admit that it was cruelly negligent towards the aspirations of the poor. But the Pashtuns alone did not suffer. Every race suffered.

    Second, the hegemonic power which imposed the Durand Line on the Amir was the British Empire. And it had motives/agenda in doing so i.e., to counter the southward expansion of Tsarist Russia as there was imperial rivalry going on between these two empires in Central Asia at that time (named the Great Game). The division of Pashtun Land occurred as a result of Three Fold Frontier policy of the British Raj (strategy in the Great Game) which divided Pashtun Land as three layers/folds of defense against any southward expansion of Russia where the first layer was Afghanistan (with internal autonomy but not external), the second layer the FATA ( administered through political department of the British Raj), and settled areas (to be fully integrated into British India).


    The British were just eager to grab land. They wanted to rule the world.


    This leads to two conclusions; (1) British Empire was a hegemonic power that forcefully confiscated Pashtun Lands. As such, it did interfere (imposing on them an alien language e.g. Urdu, administration, etc.) in Pashtuns affairs. Evidence are the three Anglo-Afghan wars and the countless battles that Pashtuns fought with the British Empire in the Pashtun border land; (2) Pakistan claims to be a heir to British Empire. As such, it inherited that policy maintaining colonial hold over Pashtun Land and manipulation of Pashtun Culture and identity.


    I maintain that NO amount of interference could have divided the Pashtun had not the Pashtun wanted to be divided. Yesterday you (Afghans-I seriously think you are a northerner) threw us away. We didn't want it. Its proven by the fact how powerful the khudai khidmatgars were even when Jinnah was seeking partition... but now (and even in 47) the majority of Pashtuns wanted to be with Pakistan and had seen how the north was capable of betraying them.

    Its always claimed that elections were incorrect by these fanatics. This is political point scoring by the losing side. They can never admit that they were never the more powerful side and the majority of Pashtuns wanted the division.

    For example did you know Balochistan was handed over by the Khan of Kalat himself. His grandson has made the statement himself. Propaganda is good but only those who identify with the views of the propagandist accept it as their bread and butter. Needless to say you do.

    Third even if we assume (a sinister thinking though) Amir Abdur Rahman Khan sold Lar Pashtuns, we should ask ourselves a question; whether that decision was accepted by Pashtuns/Afghans of Afghanistan at large---and whether it is wise for the broader Pashtun fraternity to accept that division? History is witness to it, they never accepted that decision. Even today it is un-imaginable that any Pashtun leader would suggest accepting the Durand Line and Pashtun division.
    It doesn't matter what the Afghan doesn't accept. His southern neighbours are richer, may invest in his northern parts, may create jobs, fuel growth so he wants him back. When the British was doing us left right and center he shook hands with Brits and threw them away.

    Pakistani Pashtuns accept the Durand line as do smart, noble Afghans like KGOD and revolutionthroughreason. Racists don't. Either way no one cares about them. Not the Afghans who will use them and discard them... nor the Pakistani Pashtuns who are adamant not to lose what position they have in Pakistani society.

    Last, there is another dimension to this. Irrespective of what or who caused our division, our survival as a ethno-cultural entity and nation, and the preservation of our culture/identity depend on Pashtun unity of some sort and ending of the divisions e.g., it is better 50 millions Pashtuns standing for Pashto language than just 20 millions.


    I am glad that you have said something that you have said after shedding your cloak of hatred. I congratulate you. Of course its sometimes hard to remember that it was racist Punjabis who wrapped you in that cloak... however it is also difficult to fathom that you haven't flung the cloak away and burnt it and tried to win the Punjabi with love.

    The Pashto language deserves to be promoted, culture deserves to be promoted... if unity is about this... not grabbing our lands then Pakistani Pashtuns will be the first for unity because as Barakzai said though our future is different our past is one and due to that past a bond exists.

    United we stand, divided we fall.
    Unity was destroyed the moment the North betrayed the south. The moment when they bonked us on the head, mummified us up in polythene and buried us alive. We are suspicious of the word unity now. But as you said, cultural and linguistic forms of unity are all good with us.

    Except if the Afghans do this to us---> In the name of unity.
    I am the author of Badal, an upcoming fiction novel on the War on Terror. For more information about me visit [URL="http://www.havisultan.com"]www.havisultan.com[/URL]

    Follow me on twitter:
    [url]https://twitter.com/#!/HaviZSultan[/url]

    Comment



    • Originally Posted by BarakzaiAbdali
      I cannot even define why Afghan is Pashtun and Pashtun is Afghan for you
      because I just know and feel it as I know the face of my own father.
      I usually provide references for buttressing proof...
      but for us this is more of a state of belief or a spiritual thing.
      It fits, glove and hand. Why even Arooj hesitate and has yet to deny her
      forefathers and strip herself of the title Afghan,
      is because she cannot... because somewhere deep inside this is to fight the self.
      She will blush before she denies this title we hold on par with the sacred.


      well,My brother..No one is stupid enough to abuse ones own parents!!And
      we hesitate saying anything when arguing Afghanzz,just bcoz we
      can't spitt on
      our OWN HISTORY tHat all pashtuns share...irrespective of afghan pashtun or pakistai pashtun
      just have a look on my posts,
      did I utter a single word against our forefathers?!!
      their dignity and honour is very dear to us
      in any situations.
      The point of blush for a GHAYYUR PASHTUN GIRL
      is when the sons of her own
      forefathers(her brothers) try to
      snatch her pakhtunwali!
      Your are concerned with the grace of
      your/our forefathers and got emotional
      but think once about our feelings .........some westernized raciest morons are insulting our motherland ,our culture,our generation,
      language, our national heroes , identity and what not......!!!!!!!

      Pakistani Pashtunz are born and bred and nurtured there,In the land of pakistan.
      And our GHAYYUR PASHTUN Blood will neve
      r allow us to be faithful to any other land except pakistan .
      And what the natives of Afghanistan ,the
      successors of our ancestors are doing
      with us,nothing more than accusing,abusing,taunting and degrading us.You want us to lick the
      boots of these_______.,just bcoz for getting the title "afghan"??
      let me clear,First I am a Muslim,then
      pakistani and
      "PAKHTUNWALI RUNS IN MY VEINS LIKE BLOOD"that no one can challenge!!!
      If I m to choose either of the two states ,my proud choice ll by PAKISTAN!!!! my MOTHERLAND!!

      some words for" pakistan k ghaddaron k ley....jo
      forum pr hen.
      ...wo jan gay hun gy kion nam lia jay.
      In my view you people are far more
      worse than a dog coz even a dog is loyal
      to the one feeds it.You are like a person standing before a mirror spitting on his ownself!!

      originaly posted by Havi
      See, people like me would have no problem accepting Pashtun=Afghan and Afghan=Pashtun.
      We respect the writings of Khushal Khan Baba and Pashtun poets.
      However there are a number of problems with it.
      And you are mistaking Arooj. She might blush at other things...
      lol but she has not blushed when calling Afghans and Pashtuns 2
      separate entities which is why I truly admire her. She is not fooled by this


      Thanx brother..You are right!
      Last edited by Arooj Khan; 05-29-2012, 03:35 PM.

      If you want to kill somebody conquer his heart, then leave slowly and leave them between " Death and Madness"... !

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Khostai View Post
        ^so Toramana was right after all, You are not Pashtun mr. HavizSultan...
        Why don't you say what you are, you don't have to say your adres or real name just say were you from what ethnicity you are....
        I consider myself a Pakhtun. A proud Pakhtun. Thats all that matters.

        However I have not shared anything about my background on this site. That I will do when my book is published. That background could be anything. پوهېږې ما
        Last edited by haviZsultan; 05-29-2012, 03:51 PM.
        I am the author of Badal, an upcoming fiction novel on the War on Terror. For more information about me visit [URL="http://www.havisultan.com"]www.havisultan.com[/URL]

        Follow me on twitter:
        [url]https://twitter.com/#!/HaviZSultan[/url]

        Comment


        • Originally posted by haviZsultan View Post
          I consider myself a Pakhtun. A proud Pakhtun. Thats all that matters.

          However I have not shared anything about my background on this site. That I will do when my book is published.
          Why the suspense? Actually more to the point why the avoidance?

          It shouldn't matter who/what you are and personally I don't care whether you speak Urdu with a Punjabi accent or a Jamaican accent. What matters is your sincerity to Pashto. That has nothing to do with being an Afghan national, an Indian national or being an American. Pashtuns are free to call themselves Pakistani but when people have become disassociated with Pashto, claiming to be Pashtun over the internet whilst writing in English is not the same as being accepted as Pashtun by speaking the language and being closer to the heritage in real life.

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          • Haviz it seems you are trying to prove your patriotism at the expense of putting down those that want their Pashtun/Afghans to unite (something you blame nationaliyaan of)...very interesting. I have yet to see a logical argument against unity. You are basically asking people to be patriotic to a state with british imposed boundaries. Frankly it doesn't make much sense.
            Arooj very nice dialogue for the "ghadars to Pakistan"...unfortunately you had to write it in urdu...I find that part interesting.
            http://i29.tinypic.com/2a6j8jm.gif

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