A proud Pakistani Pakhtun feeling???

[RevolutionThroughReason]

We are Pashtuns of Ariana, of Iranic stock, from Central Asia

Lar Pashtuns are Pakistanis, Pakistanis are Indian Muslims, hence Lar Pashtuns are Indian Pashtuns

Do Afghan Pashtuns embrace being Indian? No. Why? Because our history and identity is West and Central Asian

Again show me one single Pashtun Mashar in Afghanistan who says any of this.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The Indus river was once the natural dividing lines between the Iranic and Indic worlds

Pakistanis generals want the Hindu Kush or the Oxus to be such a line today

Hence, like Amir Abdul Rahman Khan did over a century ago, we must amputate the cancerous limb, and make the Durand permanent.

Reinforce our position.

Amir Abdur Rahman Khan; WAS the cancerous limb, genius. And not all of us are of Iranic Stock; Many of the Tribes of Today were originally Turkish and eventually were assimilated into the Pashtun culture through marrying Pashtun women. For example my tribe, Hotak, our origins are Ghilzai and everyone knows Ghilzai comes from "Khalji" who were turks.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Amir Abdur Rahman Khan; WAS the cancerous limb, genius. And not all of us are of Iranic Stock; Many of the Tribes of Today were originally Turkish and eventually were assimilated into the Pashtun culture through marrying Pashtun women. For example my tribe, Hotak, our origins are Ghilzai and everyone knows Ghilzai comes from "Khalji" who were turks.

You are wrong. All your info come from Wikipedia, and its a laugh.

This information of yours comes from Wikipedia. Your knowledge is limited to the internet and books, nothing else.

Persians and Turks hate Ghilzai because they challenged their authority. Persian empire was routed and also the Ottoman claim to the Caliphate was questioned. So they made up these stories in anger.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Pashtunwali has nothing to do with Arab culture. It predates Islam.

This is no way a slight against Islam.

Pashtuns became Muslims willingly because they realized the superiority of the faith.

Pashtuns are Bani Israel, and all tribes derive from that.

In addition, Prophet (pbuh) objective was with Islam was also to correct the Arabs who at the time had wrong cultural practices. (Watch the Message) He criticized all their cultural practices (burying female children, having 100 wives, idol worship, and inequality)

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You are wrong. All your info come from Wikipedia, and its a laugh.

This information of yours comes from Wikipedia. Your knowledge is limited to the internet and books, nothing else.

Persians and Turks hate Ghilzai because they challenged their authority. Persian empire was routed and also the Ottoman claim to the Caliphate was questioned. So they made up these stories in anger.

Turk and Turks hate other Turks for challenging other Turks; Even if what you assert were true, which it actually isn't (The Turks only had a problem with Ashraf, who by the way murdered Mahmoud Khan Hotak, so he does not represent the normative Hotak relationship with the Turks) It wouldn't demonstrate anything; only that your world view of how things work is rather childish and over simplified

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Pashtunwali has nothing to do with Arab culture. It predates Islam.

This is no way a slight against Islam.

Pashtuns became Muslims willingly because they realized the superiority of the faith.

Pashtuns are Bani Israel, and all tribes derive from that.

In addition, Prophet (pbuh) objective was with Islam was also to correct the Arabs who at the time had wrong cultural practices. (Watch the Message) He criticized all their cultural practices (burying female children, having 100 wives, idol worship, and inequality)

Now that's pure nonsense not supported by any anthropological or scientific evidence.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You are wrong. All your info come from Wikipedia, and its a laugh.
.

says the guy who thinks Pashtuns are descended from Jews.

[KGODB]

Again show me one single Pashtun Mashar in Afghanistan who says any of this.

Feed him for a week, and I can get a Maser to say Bobs my Uncle. Irrelevant.

Lar Aw Bar must die

[KGODB]

Amir Abdur Rahman Khan; WAS the cancerous limb, genius. And not all of us are of Iranic Stock; Many of the Tribes of Today were originally Turkish and eventually were assimilated into the Pashtun culture through marrying Pashtun women. For example my tribe, Hotak, our origins are Ghilzai and everyone knows Ghilzai comes from "Khalji" who were turks.

Amir Abdul Rahman Khan was the best leader we had since Abdali.

He looked at the Pashtun lands east of the Durand, already occupied, already stolen, no effort made to resist, and said "Shiit I might as well save what I can"

I thank him for that decision

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Feed him for a week, and I can get a Maser to say Bobs my Uncle. Irrelevant.

Lar Aw Bar must die

irrelevant eh? somehow your narrative is relevant right, but the perspectives of the people you're speaking about who identify with a totally different paradigm that you do is irrelevant on some nebulous speculation that you can bribe him with food.

Amazing logic there.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Amir Abdul Rahman Khan was the best leader we had since Abdali.

He looked at the Pashtun lands east of the Durand, already occupied, already stolen, no effort made to resist, and said "Shiit I might as well save what I can"

I thank him for that decision

You're delusional if you think that; this man promoted enslaving Hazaras, forcefully converting people who were living perfectly fine in their own way of life and not disturbing anyone else into Islam (which by the way is forbidden Islamically) and on top of that he allowed his nation to become an annex of the British Empire; and I'm not referring to the "lar khwah"; I'm talking about Afghanistan proper; we were a "client" of Britain; which is just a fancy way of saying we were under their domination.

If that's what you're thankful for then all this hot air you push about afghan sovereignty is clearly disingenuous.

[Toramana]

Havi,

I tried to answer the discussion in a logical/analytical way and generally try to play the devil's advocate... but I will answer on the emotional level.

I am not sure whether you are a Pashtun or not. You may be, you may not be... its irrelevent really. If you are, then what bought you here is what bought the other Pashtuns here. Otherwise, what bought you here may have been what bought Faye and others here: to learn about us.

There is something that binds the Pashtuns across time, across distance, across lines, across nationalities, across absurdities, across ideologies. I cannot define it. I wish I could name it. Its deep. We simply live it.

Our eternal dance of rivalries and internicine affairs are something that no amount of book learning, no amount of moving and living with the population, no amount of studying us, no amount of archaeological digging can ever really explain to our satisfaction. Why? Because we seek eachother through them.

This idea of UN defined nation states named Pakistan and Afghanistan, are tangible realities that exist by fiat and force. After all, nation states do exist for these reasons right?

But the Pashtun, he is a natural critic and skeptic... knowing full well that the masharaan izaat is paramount but that his nature is to forge his own way again and again and again. So when he is told there is a line... he wants to know how to step over it. Its almost as if this contrarianism is embedded in us. That durand line is no Rubicon to a Pashtun. Why? Because when we cross it we dont think of it as "no turning back" but rather as returning to what always was and will be.

I cannot even define why Afghan is Pashtun and Pashtun is Afghan for you because I just know and feel it as I know the face of my own father. I usually provide references for buttressing proof... but for us this is more of a state of belief or a spiritual thing. It fits, glove and hand. Why even Arooj hesitate and has yet to deny her forefathers and strip herself of the title Afghan, is because she cannot... because somewhere deep inside this is to fight the self. She will blush before she denies this title we hold on par with the sacred. Khushaal Baba threatened whoever tried to rend asunder the people and their title with the sword. And you know Havi, Khushaal Baba actually was adhering to Omar Bin Al Khattab's own instruction of: Know your fathers! Its not an issue of pride of race... but rather we are fascinated with the world's attempt to try and continuously separate us from our namesake.

Sometimes there is even a guilt with this nature of ours. Leave Islam itself aside which tells the believer that the whole community is bonded in brotherhood... I think most humanistic philosophies tell us to consider each man's worth. Despite this, the Pashtun has this natural affinity so deep for his own land (land is sacred like the mother) and the people that walk it... and away from it he always longs for his people and feel incomplete. So then, when we are away from it and we hear our beloved language being spoken in the midst of a crowed we seek out the speaker and listen intently so that we can find ourselves again. When we find that speaker and we find out that he is from a village on this or that side of the line, it matters not an iota because its as if we found our own lost brother across time and place.

Even those of us here... watch us, Soldat, Toramana, Shadowgoverner, Manzarah, Myself, Lavanaay, Luffy... we stand on diametrically opposite poles in terms of some of our views (e.g. role of religion, statehood, heroes, philosophy). We lock horns, but this is not borne of hate for the other. Rather its because its like the bantering of brothers in a family-sometimes violently so. And even sometimes we are passionate at it as if we are saving the other or trying to convince our own brother away from what we see as ruin. But we expect nothing less from eachother... its our nature.

Look at even how Soldat has such a divergent viewpoint and yet I am telling you that I would not even consider it a gamble to say that both he and Graveyard of Empires would not ever admit it openly (no our pride doesnt permit it) but they long for unity and brotherhood and a common understanding. They simply cannot hate eachother because of this unique bond that we all have. Why do you think that Maiwand and Soldat take the time to post videos at this forum? Many of these folks have said that the forum was being overrun by Islamists or secular militants alike as a counter charge. Yet they keep coming back. They keep addressing eachother... they are not off at some other ethnic forum or ideological forum... they here amongst their own craving interaction with their own across ideological and physical boundaries.

You even use your example of Luffy as a loyal Pakistani, but look at how easily Luffy slips into parlance common to both him and Admin Khan. There is a bond there that cannot be broken with borders, party affiliation, or even geographic location in the here and now.

If a century or more from Abdurrahman's time could not make us forget then a century or two more will not make a dent in our collective memory. The truth cannot be hidden. As a man grows in intellect he wants to know where he came from and where his fathers derived from. As literacy increases, it will not be an issue of Westerners with pipe dreams but rather natives seeking their own roots. No amount of signal beaming and curriculum designs from Islamabad or Kabul to hoist artificial identities will be able to stop this process. Rather, their efforts will simply accelerate an awakening. What the outcome of that will be, I am not even sure but I know it will be momentous.

Thanks Barakzai. Eloquently expressed. All this started when Niazi posted that article by a Swati boy that decried the constant stereo-types propagated by the Pakistani state-controlled media about Pashtun. I experienced this first hand when I was working at a Pakistani institution. And that turned me a Pashtun nationalist.

Recently, as I was checking in for a flight and my luggage was being checked by custom people, I experienced this. My luggage was opened and thoroughly checked by the lower custom staff. To the end of the custom lane was standing the boss in white uniform. Although, my luggage was okayed by the staff but as I reached the end of the custom lane and was about to leave it, the boss called me and asked me to open my bag once again. Then he satirically asked me,

"I mean do you have any intoxicant in the luggage e.g., NASWAR, etc. " putting on a smile on his face as he uttered the word "Naswar". Obviously, he recognized me to be a Pashtun from my appearance.

[haviZsultan]

Just came here to reply to all this. Not to have the last word. Just make one point

Havi,

I tried to answer the discussion in a logical/analytical way and generally try to play the devil's advocate... but I will answer on the emotional level.

I am not sure whether you are a Pashtun or not. You may be, you may not be... its irrelevent really. If you are, then what bought you here is what bought the other Pashtuns here. Otherwise, what bought you here may have been what bought Faye and others here: to learn about us.

There is something that binds the Pashtuns across time, across distance, across lines, across nationalities, across absurdities, across ideologies. I cannot define it. I wish I could name it. Its deep. We simply live it.

There is a beautiful, intricate indescribable bond between Pashtuns no matter where we are from or what we do. I cannot deny that even if I want to. But this bond isn't/shouldn't be about the quest to grab the others lands up to the indus.

The bond should be one of brotherhood regardless of which country one serves. Afghans are trying to destroy this bond.

Our eternal dance of rivalries and internicine affairs are something that no amount of book learning, no amount of moving and living with the population, no amount of studying us, no amount of archaeological digging can ever really explain to our satisfaction. Why? Because we seek eachother through them.

This idea of UN defined nation states named Pakistan and Afghanistan, are tangible realities that exist by fiat and force. After all, nation states do exist for these reasons right?

But the Pashtun, he is a natural critic and skeptic... knowing full well that the masharaan izaat is paramount but that his nature is to forge his own way again and again and again. So when he is told there is a line... he wants to know how to step over it. Its almost as if this contrarianism is embedded in us. That durand line is no Rubicon to a Pashtun. Why? Because when we cross it we dont think of it as "no turning back" but rather as returning to what always was and will be.

You ever think of writing a book on Pashtuns. You can do it actually barakzai.

I cannot even define why Afghan is Pashtun and Pashtun is Afghan for you because I just know and feel it as I know the face of my own father. I usually provide references for buttressing proof... but for us this is more of a state of belief or a spiritual thing. It fits, glove and hand. Why even Arooj hesitate and has yet to deny her forefathers and strip herself of the title Afghan, is because she cannot... because somewhere deep inside this is to fight the self. She will blush before she denies this title we hold on par with the sacred. Khushaal Baba threatened whoever tried to rend asunder the people and their title with the sword. And you know Havi, Khushaal Baba actually was adhering to Omar Bin Al Khattab's own instruction of: Know your fathers! Its not an issue of pride of race... but rather we are fascinated with the world's attempt to try and continuously separate us from our namesake.

Here comes the only point I want to make in the post.

See, people like me would have no problem accepting Pashtun=Afghan and Afghan=Pashtun. We respect the writings of Khushal Khan Baba and Pashtun poets. However there are a number of problems with it.

1) What Khushal Khan Khattak said was at a time of total war with the Mughals. Afghans take this out of context. That was a different time and place and the geopolitical realities were far different. The Mughals treated Pashtuns as slaves (though it was not much different than how the northern Pashtuns taxed the southern ones and threw them to the British then began referring to them as dal-khors and british slaves)
2) If Pashtun was Afghan then it should only be "Pashtun". What are Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks doing in a country like Afghanistan. Perhaps the Afghans are just using the term for their own gains? In their quest to destroy Pakistan and unite Pashtuns in one state (which is what Afghans want not Pakistani Pashtuns. They just want love and peace to be maintained between them.)
3) When the Afghans threw the land away perhaps its time to accept a permanent division between the term Afghan and Pashtun.

And you are mistaking Arooj. She might blush at other things... lol but she has not blushed when calling Afghans and Pashtuns 2 separate entities which is why I truly admire her. She is not fooled by this.

However I will admit most Pashtuns however... including the patriots have difficulty arguing with Afghans because of this. Since I could not present the Pakistani perspective on this site alone due to lack of time which i need to put on my book I called upon some Pakistani patriot Pashtuns through my much deteriorated contact base (since I went through a few disasters) they gave the same argument. We will die for Pakistan but how can we deny we are Afghans?

The only thing this has done however is that Afghans easily come along, insult their country, abuse them, bully them, then go away pleased after having punished their victim just because of his patriotism. We don't say a word. We can't do anything.

There is something wretched about kicking and punching someone who cannot fight back against you or say a word against you but Afghans have done it for a long time and I have witnessed it firsthand on this site.

Afghans have long been blackmailing the Pakistani Pashtun by saying Pashtun=Afghan. Now a time has come when the Pakistani Pashtun, the smarter Pakistani Pashtun refuses to agree to this. You would have noticed initially I took insults to Pakistan without saying much. I didn't know what to say. But I realized some of these Afghans have such a lack of honor that they are hiding behind the term Afghan to protect them.

Perhaps in the 21st century its time to reassess the meaning of the term "Afghan". As revolutionthroughreason and KGOD beautifully put it a Pashtun does not have to be Afghan anymore, he can also be a Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek. Since you have incorporated them as Afghan its time to understand the word Afghan only stands for those living within Afghanistan... and Pakistani Pashtun for the Pashtuns of Pakistan.

Now we realize that Pashtun can never be= Afghan. Its a trick by the Afghan to emotionally blackmail us using the bond you have described. One which we definitely feel for them but they don't feel at all being the "Paki slaves" we are.

Sometimes there is even a guilt with this nature of ours. Leave Islam itself aside which tells the believer that the whole community is bonded in brotherhood... I think most humanistic philosophies tell us to consider each man's worth. Despite this, the Pashtun has this natural affinity so deep for his own land (land is sacred like the mother) and the people that walk it... and away from it he always longs for his people and feel incomplete. So then, when we are away from it and we hear our beloved language being spoken in the midst of a crowed we seek out the speaker and listen intently so that we can find ourselves again. When we find that speaker and we find out that he is from a village on this or that side of the line, it matters not an iota because its as if we found our own lost brother across time and place.

The real point I was to make has been made. You have described the bond. The Durrand line is not a real physical line... but Afghans are pulling up such a line in our minds. If we respect each other and each others values it will be much better.

Even those of us here... watch us, Soldat, Toramana, Shadowgoverner, Manzarah, Myself, Lavanaay, Luffy... we stand on diametrically opposite poles in terms of some of our views (e.g. role of religion, statehood, heroes, philosophy). We lock horns, but this is not borne of hate for the other. Rather its because its like the bantering of brothers in a family-sometimes violently so. And even sometimes we are passionate at it as if we are saving the other or trying to convince our own brother away from what we see as ruin. But we expect nothing less from eachother... its our nature.

Well said.

Look at even how Soldat has such a divergent viewpoint and yet I am telling you that I would not even consider it a gamble to say that both he and Graveyard of Empires would not ever admit it openly (no our pride doesnt permit it) but they long for unity and brotherhood and a common understanding. They simply cannot hate eachother because of this unique bond that we all have. Why do you think that Maiwand and Soldat take the time to post videos at this forum? Many of these folks have said that the forum was being overrun by Islamists or secular militants alike as a counter charge. Yet they keep coming back. They keep addressing eachother... they are not off at some other ethnic forum or ideological forum... they here amongst their own craving interaction with their own across ideological and physical boundaries.

You even use your example of Luffy as a loyal Pakistani, but look at how easily Luffy slips into parlance common to both him and Admin Khan. There is a bond there that cannot be broken with borders, party affiliation, or even geographic location in the here and now.

If a century or more from Abdurrahman's time could not make us forget then a century or two more will not make a dent in our collective memory. The truth cannot be hidden. As a man grows in intellect he wants to know where he came from and where his fathers derived from. As literacy increases, it will not be an issue of Westerners with pipe dreams but rather natives seeking their own roots. No amount of signal beaming and curriculum designs from Islamabad or Kabul to hoist artificial identities will be able to stop this process. Rather, their efforts will simply accelerate an awakening. What the outcome of that will be, I am not even sure but I know it will be momentous.

I still see Luffy as a Pashtun Nationalist who has probably been abused by some brainless Punjabi or Urdu speaker who don't understand how badly they are weakening Pakistan with their racism. I am noticing its the same story for some others on this site. I didn't respect Toramana much and just believed he was a racist but recently he explained the reason for his Pakistan bashing and I understand racism made him a racist. Cause and effect as my book states. One atrocity leads to an endless cycle of revenge related atrocities.

These people have to be won over not crushed after Punjabi fanatics pushed them on the edge in the first place... no one can do it better than <(Pakistani Pashtuns)> to whom belongs every Afghan empire (All leaders came from Multan. Hate it or love it.)

Tormana I will respond to one of your posts some time later. The one in which you responded to me and explain why what the Afghans did was totally wrong and why they have no right to claim the lands south of the durand line anymore.

Sorry guys I ignore some of your posts. You must realize I am one of the few Pakistani Pashtuns here and I have to respond to many anyway for which I barely have time.

There is also a lot of speculation about my background. When my book is launched I will make sure I tell everyone what I am. Till then try to support someone trying to do something good for Pashtuns-only an idiot can think I wish some sort of evil to befall the Pashtuns. Barakzai if our unity means this much then it should also ensure that a person is not abused because of his or her views.

The only thing I see is that we lock horns and we leave each other bloody and scarred. Instead of in the end sitting together and having a laugh about it. So make sure you press the thanks button.

[Khostai]

^so Toramana was right after all, You are not Pashtun mr. HavizSultan...
Why don't you say what you are, you don't have to say your adres or real name just say were you from what ethnicity you are....

[JattApache]

You're delusional if you think that; this man promoted enslaving Hazaras, forcefully converting people who were living perfectly fine in their own way of life and not disturbing anyone else into Islam (which by the way is forbidden Islamically) and on top of that he allowed his nation to become an annex of the British Empire; and I'm not referring to the "lar khwah"; I'm talking about Afghanistan proper; we were a "client" of Britain; which is just a fancy way of saying we were under their domination.

If that's what you're thankful for then all this hot air you push about afghan sovereignty is clearly disingenuous.

Exactly ! He forced the nuristanis to convert to islam ( He named it " kafiristan" ), we can say the same thing for ahmad shah abdali, he killed many hindus and sikhs in punjab because they weren't muslims
Savages.