A proud Pakistani Pakhtun feeling???

[haviZsultan]

That's absurd; the word Afghan has changed meanings over time; Today Afghan is a national identity which encompasses many ethnicities who are not Pashtun, including Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazaras, and none of these are Pashtun. In 2012 Afghan has little to do with being Pashtun.

If Ahmad Shah Abdali were here today. he wouldn't say anything, he wasn't a Pashtun Nationalist; he had Tajiks, Balouch , Pashtuns, Uzbeks, Brahuis, Turks, Qizilbash who fought with him and under him. He was originally apart of the Persian army under Nadir Shah Qoli; and he fought the Ghilzai Pashtuns who ruled Qandahar at the time. He actually originally invaded India at the request of Indian Muslims; so there's little to believe he had any animosity against Punjabis. That is a modern attitude, not one that existed in his time.

I knew there was a reason I always liked your posts. See given the right environment you are proving you are not a racist like the others.

Very sensible post. Proves that Pashtun is not=Afghan. The same logic can apply to Pakistanis. If understood correctly your comment means 70% of Pashtuns are Pakistani Pashtuns.

The moment I saw you bravely fighting against Wahabis and their mentality I knew you were a great poster just prone to the overall environment of Pakistan-bashing.

[Toramana]

That's absurd; the word Afghan has changed meanings over time; Today Afghan is a national identity which encompasses many ethnicities who are not Pashtun, including Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazaras, and none of these are Pashtun. In 2012 Afghan has little to do with being Pashtun.

If Ahmad Shah Abdali were here today. he wouldn't say anything, he wasn't a Pashtun Nationalist; he had Tajiks, Balouch , Pashtuns, Uzbeks, Brahuis, Turks, Qizilbash who fought with him and under him. He was originally apart of the Persian army under Nadir Shah Qoli; and he fought the Ghilzai Pashtuns who ruled Qandahar at the time. He actually originally invaded India at the request of Indian Muslims; so there's little to believe he had any animosity against Punjabis. That is a modern attitude, not one that existed in his time.

Ask this question a Punjabi e.g., a bearded one to the east of Wahga as well as one from Lahore. And they will tell you Ahmad Shah Abdali was the one who plundered Punjab and was a vilain and an enemy. Ahmad Shah Abdali established an empire and ended up giving it the name of Afghanistan. Why? Why not an ethnically neutral name? There are many non-Russian nationalities in Russia (like many other countries), this doesn't mean the word "Russian" doesn't represent any specific cultural or ethnic entity. There are many other analogies.

As for the word "Afghan" having lost its meaning, which Tajak or Hazara or Uzbak so far has volunteered to give up his/her Tajak ethno-name and replaced it with an Afghan ethno-name? For them, the word "Afghan" is a political label just like the word "Pakistan" is that implies only citizenship.

Please, think and explore before you shoot from your hips like an American or an Arab or a falcon, or (a camel ).

[haviZsultan]

Greetings, you said:The only thing you are reminding me of, and displaying is your hypocrisy, alongside your obvious insecurity. Nearly everybody who you’ve had discourses with on this board is from Pakistan, the vast majority being from Swat valley, to be precise. Havi, do you remember what the proud Pakistani Army did there? Nobody has a problem with Pashtuns loving Israel, or Pakistan, that’s their individual choice. I, however, have a problem when you begin shoving down the throats of others your beliefs, such that they have to love this Banana republic. That includes your shameless attempt of serving as our representative. Vast majority says this, or that. Who are you to speak on behalf of us? The reason why I say this is because you seem to constantly mention Pashtuns of Pakistan feels this way, or that way, even when some Pashtuns of Pakistan here are debunking what you are saying, you still want to live in your own fairy-tale imagination of how all Pashtuns of Pakistan are somehow loving citizens of the banana republic, denying everything in hope of this is all being a nightmare. Despite us being killed and suffering the most, you still wish to believe Pashtuns have hope in the Pakistani government.No Pashtun has to respect ‘your country’; respect is something that is earned. A* nation that sells its self for some US dollars, that kills its own ‘citizens’ for some aid needs not respect. Such a meaningless nation deserves to be criticized, alongside Afghanistan. Both are failed nations, but you see your problem is you wish not to believe in this. Your verbal attans are not going to work, no matter how many pseudo Pashtun-related books you author. Notice have I haven’t praised Afghanistan either. I hope you have enough skills to realize that.You see, I understand Pashto isn’t your first language, which I understand you can learn, and I honestly hope you learn your language, but being an author, I’m surprised at how terrible of an analytical thinker you are. Holy cow. Where in the world did I say ‘all’ the evil is Pakistan? Don’t mistake me for yourself wrora. Let me tell you this in Urdu, since clearly English and Pashto is not getting in that head of yours, merai aap ka rag-tag Pakistan ke sat kuch lena dena nahein hain paaji. Mein nein kabhey nahein bola hain ke aap ka banana republic evil hain. Sirf ya bola hain ko Pakistan ko paiso ke chakar hain. The fact that you area hiding our discrimination under the carpet is amusing. Pashtuns have been slaughtered, and the Pakistani government has not done a thing about it aside from harboring and supporting terrorism, and opening LUMS equivalent of training camps in our land for their ‘strategic depth’. Interesting Havi, when we speak up, we are told we are evil? And how we view the nation as evil? What kind of silly, childish logic is that? Do you need evidence Havi? Before you respond, you have to prove that I said your nation is the cause of “ALL” evil. If you don’t, you owe an obvious apology for lying. Something which given your past track record, I don’t find alarming.****I don’t know what he said, or where he said this. Provide proof. Aside from that, what does that have to do with me, as an individual? When two grown men are talking, don’t get someone else involved. That’s not how ‘we’ Pashtuns acts.*Malgara, let me make this in simple terms for you. Clearly, you still don’t get it.Pashtun = Afghan. If you know a thing or two about Math, you should know what the aforementioned means. This is historically proven, and even*today*Pashtuns who are inhabitants of modern day Pakistan view themselves, and are considered by the government as ethnic Afghans. Since you are clueless of ground realities, ask Shehbaz Khan or Luffy. So stop working so hard to cause this “Afghan Pashtun this, Pakistani Pashtun that”. All Pashtuns are Afghans, it’s their ethnic group. Our language, Pashto, even went as far as being referred to as Afghani by international scholars. You can never hide from this obvious fact Havi. This isn’t a theory, it’s a known thing. Read a book or two about Pashtuns, and you will understand why Pashtun and Afghan are interchangeable.*This is evidence for what I said right above. Do some research Havi, the Pashtun culture and history did not begin when Pakistan was given birth by the British, we have a culture, and history. Pashtun and Afghan are not intertwined, they are the same thing! So what you said above makes no sense at all.*Unrelated. Laughing is something you are really good at, when we get blown up just lol Havi, lolserz power!*There I admit that I do not have the raw energy needed to respond to your posts whichFinally you’ve made your agenda clear, so it’s my drums huh? Well listen to me carefully pal, I will aways bang the drums of Pashtun unity. Sorry if that offends you, I really do apologize if I have hurt your feelings while I bang my drums, as you mentioned. Pashtun unity and oneness, something which you mentioned above, will always be my priority. You are right in a sense, that I haven’t (thank god) been brainwashed with Pak studies, the way many have been.You must be a comedian. If I didn’t accept “opinions” you wouldn’t be posting here. Anybody can vouch that our administration accepts all kind of members provided that they follow our rulebook. I think you are an insecure, brainwashed pseudo intellectual, but I respect your opinion. You see, that was my opinion. You might think I am some sort of Godzilla, but that’s your opinion. To be frank, I’ve been criticized, and I’ve debated many of your likes before, and never have I ‘banned’ them because I couldn’t handle their opinions. The entire board can vouch for this. You don’t have to stoop so low for no reason. If you are going to post something, I will quote you, and share my opinion on it. You can either ignore it, or respond with a rebuttal. I’m sorry if you weren’t taught this, but this is how we roll here. We don’t ban members if they have opposing views, like some Pakistani forums. Also, here we go again with the Pakistani Pashtun this, Afghan Pashtun that. It’s almost as if you are a broken radio, for the sake of whichever God you believe in, visit our Kitabtoon and read some books – please educate yourself before you speak on our affairs.**May

Actually to be totally truthful I've done a short analysis of the productivity of our discussions. And I am sad to find out there is none.

You accuse me of being illiterate about Pashtuns... indirectly say I am a weak Pashtun and have been brainwashed by Pak studies. Same 2 points:
1) criticize the poster
2) Deny what is my reality

Our debate seems pointless. Nothing is to be achieved out of this and I waste valuable time which could be used writing my book.

I qouted someone in one of my post to make a point... to describe the overall views on the forum but you believe a conversation should be only between us. However that makes it impossible to describe the overall atmosphere of the site which is only visible in peoples comments. I was going to qoute more people to explain to you that hatred for Pakistan exists which is ignored.

I also don't see how you even believe that "I" am the one trying to shove patriotism down the throats of others. Weren't they the ones calling me a traitor and dal-khor? This is very wrong admin. When I seek to reply to these people with my views I am trying to impose my beliefs? I admit I have presented the Pakistani perspective and that's part of the debate. However I have only done so when they have 1) started a debate with me or 2) criticized me for my views (overwhelmingly its 2). I doubt you have not noticed that I am one of the most criticized and hated members of this forum. The mullahs, the "Pashtuns are one" fanatics, everyone hates me. I have only presented my views to them and told them how I or the Pakistani Pashtun sees them. You can disagree with 'Pakistani Pashtun' label but I refuse to abandon it for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

And I never said you claimed all Pakistan is evil. But you don't need to because thats the vibe I get from you. Its obvious that you have no love for Pakistan... that is certain and like other Afghans blame it for 90% of the problems in Afghanistan and for Pashtuns.

Then your claim that I claim to represent Pakistani Pashtuns when some Pakistani Pashtuns deny what I say. Here you fail to recognize the presence of the Pashtun that is both patriotic to Pakistan and a proud Pashtun-Arooj, son of mountains, expaxai and the other members that were kicked out due to abuse or according to you ran away due to their inability to debate or analyze skillfully represent such Pashtuns. Now on Pashtunforums there may be for some reason ( I believe its bias towards the Pakistani Pashtun) more Pashtuns who want separation from Pakistan and they obviously are happy. This cannot mean that the second kind of Pashtun does not exist. Get my point homie?

I think I am coming to the center of the problem here. You probably serve an organization or group of Pashtuns and there the dominant view is that Pakistan is the cause of all problems or Pashtuns have suffered because of Pakistan. In such a case its easy to believe that such people are the majority and make up the only ones in the world when they are not. You haven't been on the ground to see for yourself what Pakistani Pashtuns really feel.

Anyway If I have guessed correctly then you can thank me. If not you can spare me the personal attacks. Only Allah is all-knowing. I only say this because I have served such an organization and it becomes easy to believe that all people in the world identify with the views of members of the organization. Perhaps in light of this it was good that I quit. Only thing is I am not building schools or helping my people in anyway anymore.

Hmmm... So you claim to tolerate them in a way as all forums are supposed to... but still find it difficult to provide a conducive environment for their views. Because of which most Pakistani posters quit... checking out the member history I am surprised by the fact that every Pakistani patriot eventually escaped the forum. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Lastly Admin Khan, I think you are making a huge mistake blaming the Pakistanis that quit this forum for having an inability to debate constructively or their "Pak studies"... have you noticed how not a day used to pass (until Luffy came) when Pakistan was not insulted? How are you ignoring that? (Even when Luffy is here it continues) In fact such an environment had been built that it was cool to insult Pakistan, cool to call Punjabis black pimps etc. Even good debaters did this just because it was cool and others were attacking Pakistan.

You won't understand how big a part the overall environment plays in welcoming a certain group. No one is going to come here to hear insults to Pakistan daily. I have said this before and say it again... the Pakistani Pashtun is treated as an unwanted commodity on this forum which mirrors the overall attitude of the Afghan towards his British slave southern neighbors. This treatment is not necessarily applied by the management but by the members. The crime of the admins and mods is not that they are actually a part of the same system (Even though they do have anti-pakistani views which is clear) but its that they turn a blind eye to the Pakistan-bashing that takes place around them.

[tor_khan]

What I am reading here is the surfacing of a ‘division’ that is traced back to non-Pashtun intervention in our lands. If we accept that this has happened – then the arguments here, whilst having some validity, also begin to fall away. Not just the British, but other imperial powers have tried to domestic us by interfering in the older (tribal) structures to which we were historically loyal, and creating replacements – the state of Pakistan or groups like the Taliban would be an example of that. But because at the core we are still essentially a tribal, independent people, it is not surprising that there are some who would fight against these replacements and it is not surprising that rejection of Talibanism or Pakistan might lead to some being called ‘secular’ or ‘ungrateful’/‘ghaddar’ . The truth is Pashtuns didn’t want the changes that were forced upon them and so ended up in exile, as migrants or refugees so to answer Luffy’s point – rejection of Pakistan or the Taliban is easier to do in the west than when you are sitting in the middle of Pakistan or in and amongst the Taliban. But yes, people could choose their words with more care so that you don’t feel that you are being poked in the eye.

Personally, I think there are alternatives to tribalism, however, if we take the examples of the Americas, Australia, the middle east and Africa, those tribes that united were most easily able to resist the designs of imperial powers so what I agree with is that Pashtuns need to think about promoting their interests as citizens of a nation than at the tribal level, since the latter is more easily divided. Throughout history tribal divisions have led to a heavy, long-term costs and the aftermath has been followed by a patterns of economic subjugation and erosion of heritage, language and culture.

Every time we come up with this debate of who is Pashtun and who is not and who is pro-Pakistan versus those who are not, then simply half the Panjabi inheritors of power in Pakistan claim origins/pedigree from Central Asia, as do Urduiite Mohajirs etc. For some this creates a very wide definition of Pashtun, however, based on my own observations, when those claiming to be Pashtuns from Pakistan undermine Pashtun national unity is often when there is a clear disassociation between themselves and Pakhto (language/culture). As for the preservation of Pakhtunyat, I don’t believe that our ‘salvation’ will come from outsiders, so whilst Pashtuns are a very hospitable people and will make honour and respect people like HaviZSultan, I do not think that his intentions are to benefit us, no matter how much he says he is a ‘friend’.

Kept in ignorance within an education system that produces parrots and extremists, Pashtuns can be kept servile (to a point) but exposure to a balanced education system make Pashtuns more competitive and drive them to question the status quo. When Pashtun youth in Pakistan today are expected to be institutionalised it is not surprising that they show loyalty to Pakistan, but once they are allowed to think freely (often they need to travel beyond Pakistan to do this), once they have access to free media and internet and an alternative version of history, they begin to question Pakistan. I have seen this over and over amongst educated Pashtuns.

Nationalists have long challenged the colonial boundaries so the blind-Pakistan patriotism that HaviZSultan espouses is alien to the majority of Pashtuns who are still loyal to nationalist parties such as the ANP (irrespective of whether parties in Pakistan are clean or not). So whilst there are Pashtuns who challenge the ‘domestication’ of the ANP and are free to do so, the ANP website hosts literature that would still be considered deeply unpatriotic and contrary to Pakistan’s self-defeating theories of nationhood. HaviZSultan, despite what you say about Pashtun love for Pakistan, if the lower literacy levels of Pashtuns was raised just marginally and they were able to read some of the messages at the heart of the party they are tied to in an almost tribal fashion, would you still try to convince yourself that Pashtuns were ready to be as blindly patriotic as you would hope them to be, or is your patriotism the result of the majority not being able to know any better?

[haviZsultan]

You know Tor bro... every day I think today I am going to write this many pages of my book... then you know what I end up doing? I end up sitting on Pashtunforums and arguing with Afghans all day.

But I've noticed in my quest to reply to a thousand posts that view me as Firaun (only some of which I manage to reply to) I haven't managed to reply to many of yours. Your post was also of the chivalrous kind... so it would be not so noble of me to not reply.

What I am reading here is the surfacing of a ‘division’ that is traced back to non-Pashtun intervention in our lands. If we accept that this has happened – then the arguments here, whilst having some validity, also begin to fall away. Not just the British, but other imperial powers have tried to domestic us by interfering in the older (tribal) structures to which we were historically loyal, and creating replacements – the state of Pakistan or groups like the Taliban would be an example of that. But because at the core we are still essentially a tribal, independent people, it is not surprising that there are some who would fight against these replacements and it is not surprising that rejection of Talibanism or Pakistan might lead to some being called ‘secular’ or ‘ungrateful’/‘ghaddar’ . The truth is Pashtuns didn’t want the changes that were forced upon them and so ended up in exile, as migrants or refugees so to answer Luffy’s point – rejection of Pakistan or the Taliban is easier to do in the west than when you are sitting in the middle of Pakistan or in and amongst the Taliban. But yes, people could choose their words with more care so that you don’t feel that you are being poked in the eye.

I do not necessarily think this is non-pashtun intervention that has caused a division in Pashtuns. The British have tried to interfere but that does not mean they succeeded. The real division was caused by the actions of Pashtuns themselves... from the view of the Pakistani patriot Pashtun the Northern Pashtun or the "Afghan."

Why? Abdur Rahman Khan selfishly gave up the southern lands to the British just to save the northern lands from being invaded. You get my point. Afghans often claim they have always remained free but had they not committed that lowly act of treason against the Pakistani Pashtun and sold him into slavery to the British there would be no division. Nor would there have been an Afghanistan at all.

After they made a mistake they are coming back now saying "oh my (british slave) brother, all Pashtuns are Afghans lets be one again." They were no where when the Pakistani Pashtun struggled to kick the british out.

I'll admit there is no lack of dreamers too though- as Toramana proves. Probably 400 years old Tormana which is why he can't accept a 60 year old child country like Pakistan? You know? Just kidding.

Pashtuns need to strengthen their own position both in Pakistan/Afghanistan but Pashtun unity died during this time because after it our histories were totally different. For example Afghans simply don't count the struggle of Pakistani Pashtuns to form Pakistan as their struggle. Even though Pashtuns sacrificed a lot for it. During the time I mentioned Pakistani and Afghan histories and inevitably their future took different paths. It will be different forever now.

However I will maintain that Pakistani government and army needs to tread carefully so as to make sure it does not alienate the Pashtun. I have made this clear a number of times before. Let the existing Tribal setup deal with things, don't give the impression Punjabis r interfering and for godsake repeal the old British laws such as the collective responsibilities act which are not allowing the Pashtun particularly in tribal areas to integrate.

Personally, I think there are alternatives to tribalism, however, if we take the examples of the Americas, Australia, the middle east and Africa, those tribes that united were most easily able to resist the designs of imperial powers so what I agree with is that Pashtuns need to think about promoting their interests as citizens of a nation than at the tribal level, since the latter is more easily divided. Throughout history tribal divisions have led to a heavy, long-term costs and the aftermath has been followed by a patterns of economic subjugation and erosion of heritage, language and culture.

Some nice thoughts. Arabs lost their tribalism years ago. Its time for the tribal setup to give way to a new setup. Ie Proper courts and law.

However the Pashtun has to accept them first. I fear it will be a long time before the Pashtun abandons the old tribal structure.

Every time we come up with this debate of who is Pashtun and who is not and who is pro-Pakistan versus those who are not, then simply half the Panjabi inheritors of power in Pakistan claim origins/pedigree from Central Asia, as do Urduiite Mohajirs etc. For some this creates a very wide definition of Pashtun, however, based on my own observations, when those claiming to be Pashtuns from Pakistan undermine Pashtun national unity is often when there is a clear disassociation between themselves and Pakhto (language/culture). As for the preservation of Pakhtunyat, I don’t believe that our ‘salvation’ will come from outsiders, so whilst Pashtuns are a very hospitable people and will make honour and respect people like HaviZSultan, I do not think that his intentions are to benefit us, no matter how much he says he is a ‘friend’.

How do you know I am an outsider. Who knows? I might have family links to Pashtuns if I consider myself one. Maybe the links are weak. Still doesn't change the fact I want to be called a Pashtun.

Kept in ignorance within an education system that produces parrots and extremists, Pashtuns can be kept servile (to a point) but exposure to a balanced education system make Pashtuns more competitive and drive them to question the status quo. When Pashtun youth in Pakistan today are expected to be institutionalised it is not surprising that they show loyalty to Pakistan, but once they are allowed to think freely (often they need to travel beyond Pakistan to do this), once they have access to free media and internet and an alternative version of history, they begin to question Pakistan. I have seen this over and over amongst educated Pashtuns.

I have always advocated education... but this isn't solely "Pakistans" fault. The overall attitude needs to change. I had a friend running a polio campaign in Pakistan (Usually never ends up being successful and we're still struggling with polio.) and I used to be told in Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan few people let their children take the drops. They can't let their kids drink drops of polio medicine, are they going to send their girls to school?

People have to look within to solve their problems too. I learned this when I worked for PNA. We have to work to solve the problems within. Terrorism will NOT end if Pakistan ends. I guarantee that. Look at Somalia, Yemen and Nigeria. They have no neighboring Pakistan-the so called exporter of terror. This has become a Pashtun problem.

Nationalists have long challenged the colonial boundaries so the blind-Pakistan patriotism that HaviZSultan espouses is alien to the majority of Pashtuns who are still loyal to nationalist parties such as the ANP (irrespective of whether parties in Pakistan are clean or not). So whilst there are Pashtuns who challenge the ‘domestication’ of the ANP and are free to do so, the ANP website hosts literature that would still be considered deeply unpatriotic and contrary to Pakistan’s self-defeating theories of nationhood. HaviZSultan, despite what you say about Pashtun love for Pakistan, if the lower literacy levels of Pashtuns was raised just marginally and they were able to read some of the messages at the heart of the party they are tied to in an almost tribal fashion, would you still try to convince yourself that Pashtuns were ready to be as blindly patriotic as you would hope them to be, or is your patriotism the result of the majority not being able to know any better?

People mistake the fact that ANP was voted in power to mean that Pashtuns want separation. ANP has never declared it wants seperation for Pakistan. On the other hand it has done everything to improve the state of the Pashtun which is why people still vote for it.

Education is the key for success. Their inevitably may be some who don't know whats good for them or Pashtuns but I doubt that education will lead to some lack of patriotism because they will also be able to read about the now or never movement or Abdur Rab Nishtar or the even Jinnah.

These kids as Luffy puts them are westernized people who think its cool to be rebels-to hate Punjabis or Pakistan to appear Western. Eventually they will become western citizens, their kids will grow up like white kids not Pashtuns and forget Pashtuns actually exist.

[Admin Khan]

Havi, allow me to take some time out to explain the reasoning behind my posts. If you are going to accuse me of things like,

But you will not understand this. For you the cause of all evil is Pakistan.


As if I am some sort of a kid, who points his finger at you even if my ice cream drops, expect me to respond and say a few words or two. Now if my response, in any shape or form, got you emotional, I apologize. I can't just sit there and allow you to take such veiled attacks, something you've been doing, which isn't permitted on any other board. I don't mean to selectively quote you, but if your also going to say something along the lines of Afghan this, Pakistani that, it's natural for me to step in and exercise some free speech by educating you on the basics. Which is Pashtun = Afghan, and Afghan = Pashtun. You however, with your obvious agenda, may choose not to believe it but you can't stop me from speaking the obvious. This isn't Pakistan where journalists get abducted for speaking their minds. There is a difference between listening and hearing, in our case all you've been doing is hearing. I've actually paid attention to your posts, thought about your perspective but when I see you saying things like Afghans don't have courage, things along the lines of;

The condition of the Pakistani Pashtun would be far worse if ruled by the Afghan. I warn my people not to commit suicide.


As if we are on some North vs South Korea nonsense. Now you and I both know this is blatant lie, which tantamounts to interference in our brotherly affairs, yet you not only stop there, but you begin to cheerlead despite people telling you that I don't wish sadness amongst ordinary peace-loving Pakistanis, my problem is with anyone who wishes to cause division amongst us Afghans. You don't stop there, you then go and say;

Maybe u guys can spare me when u come to kill us (as you said before). I am a Pf'er

Now honestly, at this point the only reason why I'm responding to you is your credibility as an author(which at this point you've lost in my eyes). When I saw that response, I was simply disgusted and didn't even think I'll type this to you, but again you are attempting to manipulate and post false information to dichotomize the Pukhtun nation with the 'Afghan' Pashtun this, 'Pakistani' Pashtun that nonsense. This cheerleading game has been played in the past, and all I expected was a quality response, not you making Pukhtuns appear as if we are barbaric creatures. I've heard a lot of this in Pakistan, with the whole making fun of how we speak Urdu, to how we are Akharouts, and how we get angry easily, etc. But you don't just stop there, on top of all this, you go ahead and state:

Pakistan while you continued banging the drums of Pashtun unity and oneness


Now surprise, surprise Havi, you are spot on. That's exactly what I wish for, and once again, judging by your past attitude and the context you posted that in, I apologize if it offends you but I won't give that up because it offends you. I will bang those drums forever, as you would call it.

Actually to be totally truthful I've done a short analysis of the productivity of our discussions. And I am sad to find out there is none.

You accuse me of being illiterate about Pashtuns... indirectly say I am a weak Pashtun and have been brainwashed by Pak studies. Same 2 points:


1) criticize the poster
2) Deny what is my reality

Havi, if you are going to say which you did above, like I've repeatedly said, of course I am going to criticize you. What's wrong with criticism? My Professors would criticize me if I came up with an inefficient algorithm. If I were to do something that could be done in O(logn) in O(n^2) timing, my professors would constructively criticize me, and rest assured I won't pull the same attitude that you did. With the whole, don't kill me, etc,etc.

Our debate seems pointless.

Of course it will Havi. You see, when I began my discussion with you my goal was to learn. Clearly, your goal wasn't the same. It was somehow to disprove me, and as soon as your goal is to prove your interlocutor wrong, the debate will be pointless if the other party has evidence against you. I argue that ethnic Afghan = Pashtun, members based, and who are posting from Pakistan agree with me yet you don't. Which is fine, you don't have to agree but please don't cause division either.

I qouted someone in one of my post to make a point... to describe the overall views on the forum but you believe a conversation should be only between us. However that makes it impossible to describe the overall atmosphere of the site which is only visible in peoples comments. I was going to qoute more people to explain to you that hatred for Pakistan exists which is ignored.

Hate is a strong word. Nobody "hates" a resident of Pakistan. Pashtuns vehemently oppose what the ragtag government shoves down our throat, and reject those causing division. Think how Pashtuns that inhabit Pakistan spoke up against the fencing. There are people living on both sides of the line. People whose uncle have Afghan nationality, yet their other uncle has Pakistani nationality. Even today, a Pashtun of Pakistan is considered an ethnic Afghan by his Pakistani government. Why you try to deny this might be a psychological issue, but I rest my case.

Weren't they the ones calling me a traitor and dal-khor?

I haven't seen anyone call you that, but look and pay attention to these words. If anybody, and I mean anybody insulted you -- I apologize on their behalf. Nobody should insult you, or your family, or your hair just simply because of your half-baked views.

I doubt you have not noticed that I am one of the most criticized and hated members of this forum. The mullahs, the "Pashtuns are one" fanatics, everyone hates me. I have only presented my views to them and told them how I or the Pakistani Pashtun sees them. You can disagree with 'Pakistani Pashtun' label but I refuse to abandon it for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

I understand you have an agenda to not recognize that all Pashtuns are ethnically Afghans, etc. However, nobody "hates" you. That's a very strong word, in fact, I can almost promise you that nobody hates you here. This is the problem with most Afghans, and Pakistanis who have been educated in the Af-PAK region, they simply can't have a conversation without feeling hated or threatened when their interests are questioned. The same way you mention Pakistanis have left, Afghans have left in bigger crowds because they couldn't handle the heat from some Pakistanis. It's both of their faults for not being able to have a conversation. We are here to enforce the rules, but we can't educate you on the basics. It's really a shame but allow me to repeat myself, I'm sorry that you feel that way but clearly that's not the case. I, for one, enjoyed talking to you and never have I had any kind of "hatred" in my heart towards you. Heck, if you are up for it, I'll even meet up with you in person the same way I have with a bunch of others on the board. I have nothing to hide, and I'm sure we would have fun discussing this topic over some Afghan Mantu. The point here that I am trying to make is, just because two people can't agree on something shouldn't mean one party should feel that they are "hated" by the other.

And I never said you claimed all Pakistan is evil.

Yes you did, but that's fine. I already discussed, and elaborated on what you said.

Its obvious that you have no love for Pakistan... that is certain and like other Afghans blame it for 90% of the problems in Afghanistan and for Pashtuns.

I'm sorry, but you can't force me to love the Afghan, or Pakistani government. I view them both as corrupt. I view Pakistan as a banana republic, and the whole nine yards that I've mentioned before in my previous posts. We've already discussed this Havi. It would be foolish, childish and silly of you to assume that what I just said means I hate the entire 200+ million people reside in the AF-PAK nations, I have nothing against an innocent rickshaw driver that drives his customers from Gulshan Iqbal to Saddar. I do have a problem when a son of a military commander is training Pashtuns to blow themselves up, while he is helping son choose between CpE and CS. Problems exist, and don't hide from them.

I think I am coming to the center of the problem here. You probably serve an organization or group of Pashtuns and there the dominant view is that Pakistan is the cause of all problems or Pashtuns have suffered because of Pakistan.

No Havi, cut the rubbish. I don't serve any "organization". That's what I meant by the typical Zaid Hameed nonsense. First it's I serve an organization that anti-Pakistan, and by your next post your going to accuse me of probably being a RAW agent. When I debunk this, you will mention the whole unwelcoming diatribe. I am not a part of any "organization" that hates "Pakistan". So stop these conspiracy theories that your creating in part to make yourself feel better about the situation. It's not going to work with me Havi, I'll catch you in your bluff if you post such nonsense.

In such a case its easy to believe that such people are the majority and make up the only ones in the world when they are not. You haven't been on the ground to see for yourself what Pakistani Pashtuns really feel.

Havi, I've been on the ground. That's I'll have to say.

Lastly Admin Khan, I think you are making a huge mistake blaming the Pakistanis that quit this forum for having an inability to debate constructively or their "Pak studies"... have you noticed how not a day used to pass (until Luffy came) when Pakistan was not insulted?

Pakistan and Afghanistan are in the center of todays media. It's natural for them to get criticized. They aren't special creatures. Nor do they have any kind of immunity from criticism. Pakistan will continue to get criticized, whether you like it or not. You can't force someone to respect a nation, respect is something you earn.

How are you ignoring that? (Even when Luffy is here it continues) In fact such an environment had been built that it was cool to insult Pakistan, cool to call Punjabis black pimps etc. Even good debaters did this just because it was cool and others were attacking Pakistan.

Calling Punjabis pimps is absolutely wrong, I condemn such posts. Every time you have reported them, I've deleted them. Don't kid yourself here. You and I both know I do not tolerate racial attacks. I welcome all Punjabis, and have no problem with those who seek to coexist with is peacefully. The same applies to Tazeks.


Best,

[R3SISTANC3]

If the British could read this thread, they'll be laughing their butts off and most probably would be proud of their accomplishment. Why argue over things that none of you had control over. You are the product of your circumstance. Try putting yourself in the shoes of each other. You might not agree with the differences in your perspectives but you'll understand that each from it's own point makes sense. There are Pakistani Pashtuns, there is a country called Pakistan and some 40 million Pashtuns including 3 million from Afghanistan live there, call it home, and hold Pakistani nationality. Your personal opinion dont matter. International laws recognizes this.

Afghan means ethnic Pashtun, it was used to denote Pashtun and Pashto speakers by Arabs, Indics and Persians. Today because of the creation of the state Afghanistan not all Afghans are Pashtun but all Pashtun are Afghans. It is part of their heritage there is no escaping it. Your personal opinion dont matter. International encyclopedias recognizes this. Mixing personal politics with historical and internationally acknowledged facts is not a good idea.

Denial will delay solutions and acknowledging would encourage understanding paving the way forward.

[Toramana]

You know Tor bro... every day I think today I am going to write this many pages of my book... then you know what I end up doing? I end up sitting on Pashtunforums and arguing with Afghans all day.

But I've noticed in my quest to reply to a thousand posts that view me as Firaun (only some of which I manage to reply to) I haven't managed to reply to many of yours. Your post was also of the chivalrous kind... so it would be not so noble of me to not reply.

I do not necessarily think this is non-pashtun intervention that has caused a division in Pashtuns. The British have tried to interfere but that does not mean they succeeded. The real division was caused by the actions of Pashtuns themselves... from the view of the Pakistani patriot Pashtun the Northern Pashtun or the "Afghan."

Why? Abdur Rahman Khan selfishly gave up the southern lands to the British just to save the northern lands from being invaded. You get my point. Afghans often claim they have always remained free but had they not committed that lowly act of treason against the Pakistani Pashtun and sold him into slavery to the British there would be no division. Nor would there have been an Afghanistan at all.

After they made a mistake they are coming back now saying "oh my (british slave) brother, all Pashtuns are Afghans lets be one again." They were no where when the Pakistani Pashtun struggled to kick the british out.

I'll admit there is no lack of dreamers too though- as Toramana proves. Probably 400 years old Tormana which is why he can't accept a 60 year old child country like Pakistan? You know? Just kidding.

Pashtuns need to strengthen their own position both in Pakistan/Afghanistan but Pashtun unity died during this time because after it our histories were totally different. For example Afghans simply don't count the struggle of Pakistani Pashtuns to form Pakistan as their struggle. Even though Pashtuns sacrificed a lot for it. During the time I mentioned Pakistani and Afghan histories and inevitably their future took different paths. It will be different forever now.

Let me say a reply to this.

First, we all know it is a universal principle of power that no state or geopolitical entity likes to sell its territory to another power for that is not only against a state's or country's national pride/sovereignty but also its strategic interests and security (for the hegemonic state may be tempted to demand more). States and country's rather (universally) try to expand their territories and power. A country or a ruler surrenders territory to another power when forced. This is exactly what happened in the case of Amir Abdur Rahman Khan who was forced by an imperial power with domination on most of the globe to sign the Durand Line agreement.

In other words, any person who has an understanding of power/geopolitical dynamics will accept that every ruler without any exception tries to preserve and expand his/her power and territory let alone lose or sell it to another power until forced. If a ruler is forced by a hegemonic power to surrender its territory, he/she tries to surrender as less as possible (and, conversely, tries to retain as much as possible). This is almost the natural instinct of rulers. And that is exactly what Amir Abdur Rahman Khan did, a pragmatic and smart move for in the part retained i.e., Afghanistan in this case, Pashtun/Afghan power could be re-consolidated and identity and culture preserved and promoted----and ultimately a campaign launched to take back the part lost to the hegemonic power.

In fact, this lays at the heart of Pakistan's policy towards Pashtun and Afghanistan and the issues between the two states (compounded by the fact that Pakistan is a little Punjabi-Mahajar Empire than any pluralistic federalist state representing the aspiration of all the component nations i.e., Baluch, Pashtuns, Sindhis, etc.).

The Muhajir-Punjabi elite of Pakistan is living under the perpetual fear that should Afghanistan become stable and powerful, that would arouse nationalistic sentiments in Lar Pashtuns. Not only this; the Indic rulers also fear that should Pashtuns in Afghanistan or Pakistan become economically prosperous and educated, and develop/promote their culture and language, it would lead to the awakening of Pashtun national sentiments. They have, therefore, conspired to keep Pashtuns weak and erase Pashtun history and consciousness from the minds of Pashtun youth through state-controlled/designed education and curricula, official history, and media propaganda .

Second, the hegemonic power which imposed the Durand Line on the Amir was the British Empire. And it had motives/agenda in doing so i.e., to counter the southward expansion of Tsarist Russia as there was imperial rivalry going on between these two empires in Central Asia at that time (named the Great Game). The division of Pashtun Land occurred as a result of Three Fold Frontier policy of the British Raj (strategy in the Great Game) which divided Pashtun Land as three layers/folds of defense against any southward expansion of Russia where the first layer was Afghanistan (with internal autonomy but not external), the second layer the FATA ( administered through political department of the British Raj), and settled areas (to be fully integrated into British India).

This leads to two conclusions; (1) British Empire was a hegemonic power that forcefully confiscated Pashtun Lands. As such, it did interfere (imposing on them an alien language e.g. Urdu, administration, etc.) in Pashtuns affairs. Evidence are the three Anglo-Afghan wars and the countless battles that Pashtuns fought with the British Empire in the Pashtun border land; (2) Pakistan claims to be a heir to British Empire. As such, it inherited that policy maintaining colonial hold over Pashtun Land and manipulation of Pashtun Culture and identity.

Third even if we assume (a sinister thinking though) Amir Abdur Rahman Khan sold Lar Pashtuns, we should ask ourselves a question; whether that decision was accepted by Pashtuns/Afghans of Afghanistan at large---and whether it is wise for the broader Pashtun fraternity to accept that division? History is witness to it, they never accepted that decision. Even today it is un-imaginable that any Pashtun leader would suggest accepting the Durand Line and Pashtun division.

Last, there is another dimension to this. Irrespective of what or who caused our division, our survival as a ethno-cultural entity and nation, and the preservation of our culture/identity depend on Pashtun unity of some sort and ending of the divisions e.g., it is better 50 millions Pashtuns standing for Pashto language than just 20 millions.

United we stand, divided we fall.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Havi,

I tried to answer the discussion in a logical/analytical way and generally try to play the devil's advocate... but I will answer on the emotional level.

I am not sure whether you are a Pashtun or not. You may be, you may not be... its irrelevent really. If you are, then what bought you here is what bought the other Pashtuns here. Otherwise, what bought you here may have been what bought Faye and others here: to learn about us.

There is something that binds the Pashtuns across time, across distance, across lines, across nationalities, across absurdities, across ideologies. I cannot define it. I wish I could name it. Its deep. We simply live it.

Our eternal dance of rivalries and internicine affairs are something that no amount of book learning, no amount of moving and living with the population, no amount of studying us, no amount of archaeological digging can ever really explain to our satisfaction. Why? Because we seek eachother through them.

This idea of UN defined nation states named Pakistan and Afghanistan, are tangible realities that exist by fiat and force. After all, nation states do exist for these reasons right?

But the Pashtun, he is a natural critic and skeptic... knowing full well that the masharaan izaat is paramount but that his nature is to forge his own way again and again and again. So when he is told there is a line... he wants to know how to step over it. Its almost as if this contrarianism is embedded in us. That durand line is no Rubicon to a Pashtun. Why? Because when we cross it we dont think of it as "no turning back" but rather as returning to what always was and will be.

I cannot even define why Afghan is Pashtun and Pashtun is Afghan for you because I just know and feel it as I know the face of my own father. I usually provide references for buttressing proof... but for us this is more of a state of belief or a spiritual thing. It fits, glove and hand. Why even Arooj hesitate and has yet to deny her forefathers and strip herself of the title Afghan, is because she cannot... because somewhere deep inside this is to fight the self. She will blush before she denies this title we hold on par with the sacred. Khushaal Baba threatened whoever tried to rend asunder the people and their title with the sword. And you know Havi, Khushaal Baba actually was adhering to Omar Bin Al Khattab's own instruction of: Know your fathers! Its not an issue of pride of race... but rather we are fascinated with the world's attempt to try and continuously separate us from our namesake.

Sometimes there is even a guilt with this nature of ours. Leave Islam itself aside which tells the believer that the whole community is bonded in brotherhood... I think most humanistic philosophies tell us to consider each man's worth. Despite this, the Pashtun has this natural affinity so deep for his own land (land is sacred like the mother) and the people that walk it... and away from it he always longs for his people and feel incomplete. So then, when we are away from it and we hear our beloved language being spoken in the midst of a crowed we seek out the speaker and listen intently so that we can find ourselves again. When we find that speaker and we find out that he is from a village on this or that side of the line, it matters not an iota because its as if we found our own lost brother across time and place.

Even those of us here... watch us, Soldat, Toramana, Shadowgoverner, Manzarah, Myself, Lavanaay, Luffy... we stand on diametrically opposite poles in terms of some of our views (e.g. role of religion, statehood, heroes, philosophy). We lock horns, but this is not borne of hate for the other. Rather its because its like the bantering of brothers in a family-sometimes violently so. And even sometimes we are passionate at it as if we are saving the other or trying to convince our own brother away from what we see as ruin. But we expect nothing less from eachother... its our nature.

Look at even how Soldat has such a divergent viewpoint and yet I am telling you that I would not even consider it a gamble to say that both he and Graveyard of Empires would not ever admit it openly (no our pride doesnt permit it) but they long for unity and brotherhood and a common understanding. They simply cannot hate eachother because of this unique bond that we all have. Why do you think that Maiwand and Soldat take the time to post videos at this forum? Many of these folks have said that the forum was being overrun by Islamists or secular militants alike as a counter charge. Yet they keep coming back. They keep addressing eachother... they are not off at some other ethnic forum or ideological forum... they here amongst their own craving interaction with their own across ideological and physical boundaries.

You even use your example of Luffy as a loyal Pakistani, but look at how easily Luffy slips into parlance common to both him and Admin Khan. There is a bond there that cannot be broken with borders, party affiliation, or even geographic location in the here and now.

If a century or more from Abdurrahman's time could not make us forget then a century or two more will not make a dent in our collective memory. The truth cannot be hidden. As a man grows in intellect he wants to know where he came from and where his fathers derived from. As literacy increases, it will not be an issue of Westerners with pipe dreams but rather natives seeking their own roots. No amount of signal beaming and curriculum designs from Islamabad or Kabul to hoist artificial identities will be able to stop this process. Rather, their efforts will simply accelerate an awakening. What the outcome of that will be, I am not even sure but I know it will be momentous.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

In accepting Pakistan, lar Pakhtuns accept being Indians. We
Have to respect their wishes. They chose to be Indian Pashtuns. God bless them. We are Ariana Pashtuns

Ariana pashtuns? Please show me a single Mashar in afghanistan who calls himself an Ariana Pashtun

[Shah-i-Kot]

Second, the hegemonic power which imposed the Durand Line on the Amir was the British Empire. And it had motives/agenda in doing so i.e., to counter the southward expansion of Tsarist Russia as there was imperial rivalry going on between these two empires in Central Asia at that time (named the Great Game). The division of Pashtun Land occurred as a result of Three Fold Frontier policy of the British Raj (strategy in the Great Game) which divided Pashtun Land as three layers/folds of defense against any southward expansion of Russia where the first layer was Afghanistan (with internal autonomy but not external), the second layer the FATA ( administered through political department of the British Raj), and settled areas (to be fully integrated into British India).

This leads to two conclusions; (1) British Empire was a hegemonic power that forcefully confiscated Pashtun Lands. As such, it did interfere (imposing on them an alien language e.g. Urdu, administration, etc.) in Pashtuns affairs. Evidence are the three Anglo-Afghan wars and the countless battles that Pashtuns fought with the British Empire in the Pashtun border land; (2) Pakistan claims to be a heir to British Empire. As such, it inherited that policy maintaining colonial hold over Pashtun Land and manipulation of Pashtun Culture and identity.

Third even if we assume (a sinister thinking though) Amir Abdur Rahman Khan sold Lar Pashtuns, we should ask ourselves a question; whether that decision was accepted by Pashtuns/Afghans of Afghanistan at large---and whether it is wise for the broader Pashtun fraternity to accept that division? History is witness to it, they never accepted that decision. Even today it is un-imaginable that any Pashtun leader would suggest accepting the Durand Line and Pashtun division.

Last, there is another dimension to this. Irrespective of what or who caused our division, our survival as a ethno-cultural entity and nation, and the preservation of our culture/identity depend on Pashtun unity of some sort and ending of the divisions e.g., it is better 50 millions Pashtuns standing for Pashto language than just 20 millions.

United we stand, divided we fall.

I dont know who could disagree with the fact that the British sought to weaken the Pashtuns by imposing the Durrand line. Its the truth that the Durrand line was imposed to weaken Pashtuns, and was symbolic of British hegemony.


If you hold these facts as truth, then how come this same logic doesnt follow through in regards to the NATO war/puppet Karzai/Spanta regime in Kabul?

For the so-called Pashtun nationalists of the ANP and PMAP, this last decade was actually their chance to seize the moment, and put forth their nationalist ideology of freedom AND independence for Afghanistan. They and other "nationalists" threw this opportunity to push forth their political ideology out the window by supporting the NATO war/occupation/Karzai regime in Kabul. It appears they did not learn from past mistakes of supporting the Soviet war/occupation/Najib regime in Kabul.


There is no one to blame but the people you call your heroes. Asfandyar and Mahmood Achakzai are no Akbar Bugti.

Pashtuns resent foreign occupation and nothing can ever change this fact of life/nature. You cant stop snow or rain, likewise you can not stop or change Pashtun resentment to foreign occupation. Therefore, any ideological group that seizes the moment and taps into Pashtun resentment to foreign occupation will always have the upper hand. You know that this is the truth.

Lenin/Stalin were nationalist, murderers, but nationalist nontheless. Stalin fought a defensive war against Hitler's Nazi war machine, and successfully won, not because he was a Communist, but because he would not tolerate the foreign occupation of Russia. Russians may have not liked his Authoritarian rule, but in the moment of a war, that was not their pressing issue, fighting the NAZIs and forcing them to withdraw was.

Where is the Bugti for the secular nationalist Pashtun?

[KGODB]

Ariana pashtuns? Please show me a single Mashar in afghanistan who calls himself an Ariana Pashtun

We are Pashtuns of Ariana, of Iranic stock, from Central Asia

Lar Pashtuns are Pakistanis, Pakistanis are Indian Muslims, hence Lar Pashtuns are Indian Pashtuns

Do Afghan Pashtuns embrace being Indian? No. Why? Because our history and identity is West and Central Asian

[KGODB]

The Indus river was once the natural dividing lines between the Iranic and Indic worlds

Pakistanis generals want the Hindu Kush or the Oxus to be such a line today

Hence, like Amir Abdul Rahman Khan did over a century ago, we must amputate the cancerous limb, and make the Durand permanent.

Reinforce our position.

[Shah-i-Kot]

We are Pashtuns of Ariana, of Iranic stock, from Central Asia

Lar Pashtuns are Pakistanis, Pakistanis are Indian Muslims, hence Lar Pashtuns are Indian Pashtuns

Do Afghan Pashtuns embrace being Indian? No. Why? Because our history and identity is West and Central Asian

I dont know where you got this from. The only people in Afghanistan who talk of Aryan origins are the Tajiks.

Pashtuns are a unique ethnic group. There are no racial or linguistic ties to Iran.

You can find nearly all different Pashtun tribes on either side of the Durrand. Zadrans are present in Paktia as well as Bajaur and Orakzai. Yousafzais are present in Swat as well as Kandahar. Wazirs and Maseeds can be found not only in Waziristan but also all across Afghanistan, especially Nuristan and Kunar.

The "Aryan" narrative is that of the Tajiks, not Pashtuns. Pashtuns actually have rarely ever made such claims because they see themselves as superior to Iranians.

[KGODB]

I dont know where you got this from. The only people in Afghanistan who talk of Aryan origins are the Tajiks.

Pashtuns are a unique ethnic group. There are no racial or linguistic ties to Iran.

You can find nearly all different Pashtun tribes on either side of the Durrand. Zadrans are present in Paktia as well as Bajaur and Orakzai. Yousafzais are present in Swat as well as Kandahar. Wazirs and Maseeds can be found not only in Waziristan but also all across Afghanistan, especially Nuristan and Kunar.

The "Aryan" narrative is that of the Tajiks, not Pashtuns. Pashtuns actually have rarely ever made such claims because they see themselves as superior to Iranians.

A new narrative must be established, emphasizing the clear distinctions between us