Time to Talk about the Hazaras

[Shah-i-Kot]

afghans aren't fooled by slogans, you can call the government a republic or emirate or whatever, what matters is the results on the ground. i can tell you with certainty that most minorities hate the taliban and would like to see them destroyed. that doesn't mean they wouldn't want peace talks to end the war but don't think that these people want to see the return of taliban rule on their land, because they don't. the taliban didn't invent peace and security, there was security whenever a leader consolidated their power and defeated their rival. it was true in the north and in the south.

I think most generally want security, and the only way to security is through withdrawal of NATO. This is the barrier to peace.

I dont think it matters what the few want, especially if it is a Western oriented democracy that is alien to the vast majority of people.

I think in Sharia, there is no such thing as pluralistic democracy

[NokiaWnW]

what will federalism do? the biggest supporters of federalism and the parliamentary system are the ones who barely show up for parliament sessions to begin with. afghanistan has never really had a strong central government to begin with, so i don't get the hype of division.

what was the monarchy era? What was the Taliban era? What was the dictatorship era? The socialist-era? Are you kidding me? Do you know why centralism failed? Because socialism was not in favour of Taliban and monarchy was not in favour of socialists and paradoxical all these eras were facist-like governments, specially against hazaras. Pashtun tribalism will never change it´s face no matter under which state we live, except such as federalism which give the different people the opportunity to chose their own men among their own to rule their own regions. However, federalism or something like that will come no matter what Karzaipackage or Taliban wants. The new agreement between Karzai and US proves it. That is the only solution that will keep Afghanistan alive. No Hazara would ever dare to pick up a stone against a savage Kuchi and no Kuchi would take a stone to throw it against a Hazara of Kandahar. Federalism means the Hazaras will have their rights to chose their own men. A PASHTUN from Zabul will not be allowed or have the chance to go to Bamian and become the governeur. That is federalism. Giving different people in a state a special autonomy. Pakistan, India, Germany, and many more states are run by federalism.

[NokiaWnW]

Well, you are actually flat out wrong, it seems you want to pin the bad effects of "freedom" on Pashtun, and at the same time cast Pashtuns are the backward evil Islamic fundamentalists.

Pashtun tribal practices have nothing to do with the problems of rape, murder, pimping and prostitution in the North. It is restricted to Mazar i Sharif, and the rest of those non-Pashtun areas.


In the North, sexually transmitted diseases have gone up.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/...17365820080519

Prostitution can be found everywhere in Afghanistan. But the fact is that most of them have, specially in the north, ethnical reasons, specially because of the anti-sentiments of Uzbeks against Pashtuns in Kunduz or Takhar or Faryab or the anti-sentiments of Tajiks against pashtuns in Baghlan. Who tells you that those prostitutes in the north are not Pashtuns, too? As I wrote earlier, many Pashtun women were kidnapped or raped or sold to prostitution, specially those who lost their male members of the family or husband. Also Bachabazi is based on ethnicity created by bloody haramzada shaitans. Unlike the south, the North is open to the media. If you want to know more about prostitution in the south you just need to listen news from the border regions or the news of groups like Women for Change. Non-Pashtun areas does not mean there is no Pashtuns. Kunduz for example. Just take the situation of Pashtuns from Takhar and Baghlan or Paghman. You will know more. You know how the situation of sold girls and boys from Tribal areas is in states like Pakistan. Marginalization has many dirty faces. If you go to Khair Khanah you will see how many of the prostitutes are really from the ''North''. Stop bluffing and lying. Even your Taliban promoted prostitution in secret.

[randolph85]

I think most generally want security, and the only way to security is through withdrawal of NATO. This is the barrier to peace.

I dont think it matters what the few want, especially if it is a Western oriented democracy that is alien to the vast majority of people.

I think in Sharia, there is no such thing as pluralistic democracy

and most people in the north are secure now, whether you want to believe it or not. when the taliban were in power, most people were secure in the south but were waging a war in the north. shariah or not, the only thing thats different now is that the president is elected, there was an elected parliament in place quite a while before the wars. no one was fighting during zahir shahs time and it wasn't exactly a shariah enforcing government but almost all afghans look back at those days as the good times.

[NokiaWnW]

and most people in the north are secure now, whether you want to believe it or not. when the taliban were in power, most people were secure in the south but were waging a war in the north. shariah or not, the only thing thats different now is that the president is elected, there was an elected parliament in place quite a while before the wars. no one was fighting during zahir shahs time and it wasn't exactly a shariah enforcing government but almost all afghans look back at those days as the good times.

Zahir Shahs days were peaceful because the cold-war protagonists had no interests in Afghanistan. But the country was still poor, ethnic devision existed, civil wars were ongoing (more than 19 in the last century) etc. The north is compared to the south more secure but not at all. The Taliban are crushed down there but the danger of them still is existing since they have pockets there.

[randolph85]

what was the monarchy era? What was the Taliban era? What was the dictatorship era? The socialist-era? Are you kidding me? Do you know why centralism failed? Because socialism was not in favour of Taliban and monarchy was not in favour of socialists and paradoxical all these eras were facist-like governments, specially against hazaras. Pashtun tribalism will never change it´s face no matter under which state we live, except such as federalism which give the different people the opportunity to chose their own men among their own to rule their own regions. However, federalism or something like that will come no matter what Karzaipackage or Taliban wants. The new agreement between Karzai and US proves it. That is the only solution that will keep Afghanistan alive. No Hazara would ever dare to pick up a stone against a savage Kuchi and no Kuchi would take a stone to throw it against a Hazara of Kandahar. Federalism means the Hazaras will have their rights to chose their own men. A PASHTUN from Zabul will not be allowed or have the chance to go to Bamian and become the governeur. That is federalism. Giving different people in a state a special autonomy. Pakistan, India, Germany, and many more states are run by federalism.

the only support federalism has in afghanistan are washed up northern alliance politicians who have no jobs that meet with republican lawmakers every 6 months. where was massouds bro to talk about federalism when he was vice president, what about saleh when he was intel chief? what about abdullah 2x when he had a job in the government?

why didn't rabbani implement a federal republic when he was president? your northern alliance leaders are idiots who have no ideology. its all about western $$$ for them. the people who still be killing each other if they weren't brought together with american suitcases full of cash.

since people like you have no interest in an afghanistan, splitting up the country is of no consequence to you.

[Shah-i-Kot]

and most people in the north are secure now, whether you want to believe it or not. when the taliban were in power, most people were secure in the south but were waging a war in the north. shariah or not, the only thing thats different now is that the president is elected, there was an elected parliament in place quite a while before the wars. no one was fighting during zahir shahs time and it wasn't exactly a shariah enforcing government but almost all afghans look back at those days as the good times.

thats definitely not the case anymore with much of Northern Afghanistan anymore, as warlords are in power there, and are permitting an atmosphere of lawlessness, crime and disorder. This is a fact.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/campaign/ground/warlord.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,643537,00.html

http://www.economist.com/node/7855533

It is a well known fact that these warlords are oppressing people in the North just as they do elsewhere.

[randolph85]

thats definitely not the case anymore with much of Northern Afghanistan anymore, as warlords are in power there, and are permitting an atmosphere of lawlessness, crime and disorder. This is a fact.

yes, but it is absolutely nothing like the civil war era of lawlessness and crime.

[NokiaWnW]

the only support federalism has in afghanistan are washed up northern alliance politicians who have no jobs that meet with republican lawmakers every 6 months. where was massouds bro to talk about federalism when he was vice president, what about saleh when he was intel chief? what about abdullah 2x when he had a job in the government?

why didn't rabbani implement a federal republic when he was president? your northern alliance leaders are idiots who have no ideology. its all about western $$$ for them. the people who still be killing each other if they weren't brought together with american suitcases full of cash.

since people like you have no interest in an afghanistan, splitting up the country is of no consequence to you.

well, if they want they can turn Afghanistan within hours to a federal state but unlike the savage group to which KharZoya belongs they are civilised. They have the power and the ideology but why should they go for war when they can turn all the failures of kaka kharZoya within weeks to correct acts? It would also just cause more violation. We wait for our time.. the next election. The only consequences here is if federalism come up you guys will have no more saying in Afghanistan, at least in 70% of the country. It will be your end as terrorists. That´s all. Is Pakistan is a splitted country or France, Germany, India? Stop fooling yourself. Federalism is the only solution for the survival of Afghanistna otherwise Afghanistan will be splitted into new states, That´s very easy. But you seems to be to stupid to understand that. i know you prefere the monopoly of one group on other groups but that will be failed. Kaka Kharzaoya will soon find himself and his criminal family in grave running toward hell, either from the hands of the Afghans or the Taliban. Let´s wait for the next election. An administration-change will come, soon. Kharzai has no chance to win this game.

[Shah-i-Kot]

yes, but it is absolutely nothing like the civil war era of lawlessness and crime.

The corruption there within the Police/Army is very high where they are creating a climate of disorder and fear for the local population, regardless of ethnicity. Bribes, whatever crime you can think of, exists there.

These ethnic militias never really had ethnic interests at heart, but really are just a bunch of criminal outfits.

I dont predict that there will be a civil war precisely due to the corruption and injustice of these war lords who will really present no threat at all in that respect.

Corruption tends to weaken the resolve of any organized grouping of people , political or non-political.

http://www.economist.com/node/7855533

"Locals claim that, like most commanders, Mr Rais levies a produce tax, which he calls zakat, after the Muslim tithe to feed the poor, according to his whim. They also say he grabs their water, which after four droughts in five years is a precious resource, and accuse him of the murder of six men in the town earlier this year. Mr Rais denies involvement in the killings and says he hasn't levied zakat for a decade."

[NokiaWnW]

thats definitely not the case anymore with much of Northern Afghanistan anymore, as warlords are in power there, and are permitting an atmosphere of lawlessness, crime and disorder. This is a fact.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...d/warlord.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...643537,00.html

http://www.economist.com/node/7855533


It is a well known fact that these warlords are oppressing people in the North just as they do elsewhere.

That´s the people´s choice. Go to Herat, Mazar or Parwan or even to Kabul and see people are happy they have their warlords. These warlords are the defender of them against evil Taliban and Pakistan and they will remain their defender. Talk about the south where one Pashtun fleshs the next Pashtun and one warlord or tribal leader is fighting the next tribal leader. If you hate those warlords why you have so moch love for warlords like abdurrahman khan or the pumkin head daud khan? They were also warlords... state´s warlords and further slaves of russians and brits. Hypocrisy. the only reason why you hate or fear those warlords is because you know they will smash you again, no matter if you come up with arabs or pakis together...

[NokiaWnW]

The corruption there within the Police/Army is very high where they are creating a climate of disorder and fear for the local population, regardless of ethnicity. Bribes, whatever crime you can think of, exists there.

These ethnic militias never really had ethnic interests at heart, but really are just a bunch of criminal outfits.

I dont predict that there will be a civil war precisely due to the corruption and injustice of these war lords who will really present no threat at all in that respect.

Corruption tends to weaken the resolve of any organized grouping of people , political or non-political.

http://www.economist.com/node/7855533

"Locals claim that, like most commanders, Mr Rais levies a produce tax, which he calls zakat, after the Muslim tithe to feed the poor, according to his whim. They also say he grabs their water, which after four droughts in five years is a precious resource, and accuse him of the murder of six men in the town earlier this year. Mr Rais denies involvement in the killings and says he hasn't levied zakat for a decade."

Can you Dajjali also post some new articles...not those old 2004 articles? Things changed. Trying to demoralize people will not work. They were pretty good Taliban-killers yesterday in 2004 and they are best today ... no matter what they were in 2006, no matter if they were drug addicted or not. :O

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That´s the people´s choice. Go to Herat, Mazar or Parwan or even to Kabul and see people are happy they have their warlords. These warlords are the defender of them against evil Taliban and Pakistan and they will remain their defender. Talk about the south where one Pashtun fleshs the next Pashtun and one warlord or tribal leader is fighting the next tribal leader. If you hate those warlords why you have so moch love for warlords like abdurrahman khan or the pumkin head daud khan? They were also warlords... state´s warlords and further slaves of russians and brits. Hypocrisy. the only reason why you hate or fear those warlords is because you know they will smash you again, no matter if you come up with arabs or pakis together...

Why do you hate Pumpkins? Have you ever had it? Its as good as squash, in fact I think its a sub species.

[Admin Khan]

Personally, I feel as if the Hazara vs Pashtun conflict has been blown way out of proportion. Sure problems exist, but I certainly feel as if neighboring countries have milked the issue for their own strategic interests. They very well know that by not dropping it, it will be detrimental to Afghan unity and peace. I can speak on behalf of Kandahar, and proudly claim that Hazaras are highly respected, and viewed as an essential & integral part of the nation. Discrimination in all forms or flavors is wrong, and so an ethnic group of 50 million should not be held hostage for the crimes of a few mickey-mouse warlords. If I was an Afghan national, I'd vote for Ramzan Bashardost, hands down.

[R3SISTANC3]

From what I have read about Ramazan Bashardost he seems to be a genuinely a great guy. Afghanistan need more people like him.