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Time to Talk about the Hazaras

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  • Time to Talk about the Hazaras

    I have seen a few debates here maligning Pashtuns about injustices toward minorities. I have also seen Pashtuns rebuke other Pashtuns withour really much evidence at hand. The rebuke usually is some swan song along the lines of: Come on we have to admit we did wrong and just not do it again.

    I think contrition is a good thing. But I think discussion followed by contrition is preferrable.

    In the last decade, National Geographic has churned out a series of articles detailing Pashtun (not Taliban alone) atrocities against the Hazara people.

    http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/pa...attack-0022197

    Al Jazeera joins the discussion above.

    The issue with the AJ Stream documentary is that it committs the same error that the Geographic issues committ when discussing the Hazara massacres. Beyond this, all the guests on the show are Hazara activists.

    If you actually read Hazara literature the Hazara nationalist websites generally dont just leave the discussion to the Taliban but actually concentrate heavily on the Kochi Nomads as well. That is an example of how glaringly unrepresentative these articles and shows are. The current trend is to associate Hazara deaths with Taliban when a major journal discusses the issue; yet in reality the history and the nuances are the devil in details. As I noted, simply take a look at a Hazara nationalist website to see the vigor with which Kochi Nomads are verbally assaulted.

    Here are my qualms with this unbalanced discussion currently:

    1. History: The complete history of the Hazara and the Pashtun people are ignored.

    2. Recent History: The recent history of Hazara militant movements such as Ali Mazari's are completely ignored.

    3. The Hazara issue in Pakistan is discussed separately from the Hazara issue in Afghanistan and its made to seem that the Hazara are cute care bear dolls who are walking Buddhas and some big bad hairy Pashtun comes along and blows up a teddy bear. Yet just as the Pashtun belt and cross border issues are paramount; the Hazara issue is also a cross border one.

    Historically:
    1. Read any Hazara website about the roots of the Hazara people. Their claim to fame is that they carry some Y chromosome that provides a basis to their claim of being descendents of the Great Khan (Genghis) or one of his forward operating bases.

    This is very important. Folks in the US have a 200 year memory. They forget that many parts of the world have a memory of a millenium. We see this in the Persian Arab; Turko Arab; Sunni Shiite; Sunni Pashtun - Shiite Iranian, French English, Irish English, Scottish English, Eastern Euro Russian Bosian Serbian motifs that continue to this day.

    I referred to this previously here when I discussed Stephen Tanner's famous Military History of Afghanistan.

    Tanner refers to the direct evidence, John of Plano Carpini's interview with Mongol vets 19 years after their Afghan disaster. The Mongols according to these vets traveled to that region after they laid waste to the other parts of Afghanistan, and even after they raided Peshawar, and Bajaur fruitlessly. The Mongol soldiers found a man and his wife and they were bough to Genghis. When he asked them where the people lived they replied "underground beneath the mountains." Genghis sent the couple to order the people to appear. "But then according to the Mongols 'these men gathered by ways hidden beneath the earth and came against the Tartars to do battle and sprang suddenly upon then and killed many."

    Tanner goes on to say:
    "What the Monk heard from Mongol veterans is strikingly similar to the stories Soviet soldiers told following their war in Afghanistan in the 1980s."

    Tanner ends with this:
    "It is interesting that Genghis Khan's baggage train, left behind north of the hindu kush when he began pursuit of Jalal ad Din was repeatedly raided and plundered in his absence. The sedentary communities of Afghanistan had fallen but the nomadic hill tribes remained free and were still dangerous."

    ***In summary, if we concede to the Hazaras their claim that they are representatives of the Great Khan and are basically the remnants of his permanent military bases on Afghan soil... we have direct historical evidence that Genghis and his men were the aggressors and the Pashtuns of the hills were there to do pitched battle and guerilla raids against him from the very moment they decided to invade Pashtun lands. He responded with ruthless aggression and archaeologically confirmed destruction of irrigation systems of these Pashtun ancestors. Basically, history shows that they threw the first punch.***

    Why does this matter? Well, my suspicion is that our guest NokiaWnW is a Hazara based on his tone and speech and occasional anti sunni diatribes. He pertends to be a Tajik, but doesnt play one very well. His and the other Hazara power player responses are generally similar when Pashtuns complain about marginalization in the current government and with respect to NATO raids: his response is "tough luck you guys screwed us and now you are going to get it."

    OK then that by that level of moral relativism, when Abdur Rahman was doing his business over a century ago and when the Kochyaan were doing what they did when the Ishaqzai tribesmen took some Hazara lands one could say: "tough luck... you guys are the remnants of permanent bases and now, so many hundred years later you were left stranded in hostile territory."

    2. Recent history: Read about Hizbe Wahdat and Ali Mazari. Hizbe Wahdat was like the Afghan equivalent of the Sadr Mehdi Militia. The key leaders including Mazari were educated and indoctrinated in Iran. The time honored post civil war accusation by Hazaras has been: "Pashtuns are lucky to be allowed in Afghanistan as their original doctrines, ideologies, and ancestoral home all emanate from Pakistan." Basically, all Pashtun muj fighters, and even Karzai, are labeled as Pakistani interlocuters and agents. Yet Mazari gets a "out of jail free" card on the fact that he had sustained links to Iran and looked out heavily for shiite interests. When he started to demonstarte ethnocentrism he caste aside religious affiliation for a brief period and pared up with the communists around the borders of Kabul and alienated his rural Hazarajat population. During a period of time, the Hazara were heavily involved in the communist era military when it suited their interests. This entailed massacres and attacks on other ethnic groups as well, yet this component of history is glossed over.

    That is not to say it was all monolithic; just as there were patriots in the other organizations who were looking for working solutions; Wahadat had its own patriots that wanted to have sunni/shiite working relationships. Mazari's alliance with Dostum shot a bazooka through such efforts though and this is exactly why Akbari forged links with the Taliban. This evidences that if nothing else; the Hizbe Wahdat leadership itself warmed up to the urban Kabul leftists and former Parcham/Khalq members.

    3. The Hazara issue in Pakistan: As per above the Hazara issues in Pakistan and Afghanistan are linked. It is utterly magical thinking to assume that in both the Pashtun regions straddling the durand line and in Quetta/Chaman that an imaginary border would somehow limit violence from spilling over. Historically, it never has and it never will. In the Al Jazeera program Major Nadir Ali makes some valid points about how some early political assassinations predated the NATO intervention. The pace however picked up as radicalization of all ethnic groups has escalated. If Pakistan is playing its own cards, Iran is certainly still utilizing its own links and leverage through its former Wahdat commanders. In fact the shiite marriage rape law is evidence enough of the fact that shiite theocratic goals are still in the back of the Wahdat players minds.

    Now the kicker:
    Folks are going to read the above and start to get emotional without thinking through what is factually listed above. This is not a basis for the Taliban to have a get out of jail free card and go to town on the Hazaras. Just as there may have been animosities between Red Indians and Caucasians, we dont expect or accept violence now hundreds of years later. Just as there is a debate about affirmative action and whether anyone is owed anything in the post slavery era; there is a debate here as well.

    There should be mutual respect for ideologies, life, liberty, and property on both sides of the ethnic and religious divide, but playing the innocent card all day and all night and then telling the Pashtuns that their marginalization is simply historical blowback borders on ignorant and assinine. If such is the case, then AbdurRahman could simply have burned down Hazarajat and said "blowback."

    And the educated Pashtuns should also have some patriotism and ethnical devotion to the facts. Simply kow towing the world's apparent propaganda based view against your own people is not doing our language, history, and people any service whatsoever. As I said, go read Hazara websites and books. The emphasis up the Taliban era fell predominantly on Kochi Nomads being called brigands. Taliban basically, their literature, is synonomous with Pashtun.
    Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 05-06-2012, 04:42 PM.
    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

  • #2
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10776654

    Here is an example of how leading intellectual of the post invasion Wahdat, Khalili is directly called out for serving Iranian interests as well. So as noted, this is not a case of big bad hairy ugly guy (Pashtun) capturing the cute cuddly Care Bear and torturing it. Its much more intricate, much more detailed, and requires a more valid and history based discussion to ensure Pashtuns are not disenfranchized.
    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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    • #3
      On this matter I will say this, while historically there have been tensions between Afghanistan's different ethnic group, the last decade has seen the demonization of Pashtuns within Afghanistan and Pakistan for that matter- and this narrative is pushed forward while Pashtun children, women, and elderly die from NATO airstrikes, night raids, and drone attacks too. So the absurd nature of talking about Pashtuns wanting to maintain Pashtun supremacy is ridiculous. It truly is remarkable when one considers the many ironies of this last decade of NATO war. You have Awami National Party joining in the chorus with the PPP-Army nexus to reopen the NATO supply lines to NATO/Karzai. The religious right have truly put this issue to rest- it will not be opened.

      You have the Karzai Ambassador to Australia saying that the international community must demand that Pakistan reopens the NATO supply lines. This is blatant evidence for their pro-Pakistan views when Pakistan is critical for their existence and the war (how ironic it is?)
      SITTING in his quiet office thousands of kilometres from his war-torn home, Afghanistan ambassador Nasir Andisha says Australia...


      Instead of discussing the issue of closing the Pakistan air supply lines which are still open, they are asking to reopen the ground lines. It truly seems that Pashtuns have enemies all around them. A smart balancing act by those who want peace is required to put an end to this madness. I know this is off topic, but I believe it is related. For all the "Paki this, Paki that" in failed attempts at trying to foreignize opposition to the NATO occupation/Karzai regime, the truth is these people actually really love the current set up in Pakistan where a leadership/Army that is subservient to the US is on their last stand in power. Who is pro-Pakistan, again? The Karzai regime is after all because without those NATO supply lines, they dont exist.

      To the credit of most of the rural Hazaras, Tajiks, and Uzbeks in my opinion, I doubt they go along with this mostly pro-war crowd thats sit in either Europe or the United States churning out their pro-war views. Most notable in this regard is Ahmad Shuja who speaks on AJ Live a lot, and distorts reality severely.
      Last edited by Shah-i-Kot; 05-06-2012, 05:12 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        you are saying afghan minorities are not against the war against the taliban? they are probably more pro war than the western public is in regards to the taliban.
        There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

        Sayyid Qutb

        Comment


        • #5
          SG, what are origins of Kuchi-Hazaras conflict?
          دلته دم او قدم دواړه په حساب دي - پل په لاره غلط مه ږده بې حسابه

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by randolph85 View Post
            you are saying afghan minorities are not against the war against the taliban? they are probably more pro war than the western public is in regards to the taliban.
            I agree. The dollar flow to the NGOs and the commentaries in Western News channels more than validates your statement here. Thanks.
            "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shadowgoverner
              hezbi wahdat is the most vicious criminal organisation ever.
              me and my parents escaped two times in kabul city when we were pulled over.
              they used to ask people to say the word Qorooth.
              a Pashtun who wouldnt be good in farsi would say qwareth or something and they would take them out of the car and assemble them or shoot them right away.
              they even imprisoned and killed many hazaras as well.

              when we were leaving kabul in the height of civil war my whole family were on a couple of lorries on the way to leave kabul,we were in hundreds packed on the lorries when we got stopped at kabul/jalalabad road by hezbe whadath a guy came with a sword in the hand saying come down we have killed your pashtuns you are next.
              thats when one of my family memebers bribed him with all the money he had.
              so we escaped death the second time and this time my whole family.

              they were involved in the dance of the dead(cutting people's heads and watching them die their bodies jumping like headless chicken)
              sawing people and cutting Pashtun women's ..................toba khudaya i cant say that.putting nails in people's heads.


              that doesnt mean hazara population didnt suffer because of these waring groups.
              for example masood and sayaf laid siege to hazara neighbourhood killing many.

              i think these groups like massodies are now claiming to be representing certain ethnic groups to protect themselves from punishment the same way hezbi wahdath is saying they represent hazaras.

              yes you are right BA
              they do hate kuchis the most because they cant stand kuchis like all over the country also wonder around hazarajath.

              here is a videoclip where a kid is used to spew anti kuchi hatred
              pashtuns kill hazara people in maidan wurdak! - YouTube
              here is a stage show in quetta a place where pashtun give them refuge they are making this drama where they kill an afghan king while being handed over diplomas.
              Khaliq Shaheed Part 4/7 - YouTube
              Thank you. I think this is very good information that more than validates what I am saying. Its become all the vogue and the rage to say:

              1) Innocent American boys have to be shipped off to war to help build Afghan women schools and ensure they vote
              ---> Now that thats been shown to be unrelated the next series of anti Pashtun garbage has been:

              2) Pashtuns with black turbans and big beards are out trying to find cute Hazara babies to throw them into valleys and then celebrate with green tea and cashews. We have to have western intervention and send innocents to go and fight there to stop this. Enter Shuda and Nidal Ali and others.

              Sadats own daughter (half Pashtun) told me that many of the lucrative phone line contracts and other business ventures in Afghanistan have been purposefully doled out to these minorities and basically made the Pashtun business persona non grata in their own areas. I asked her what the response is when the Pashtuns protest and she said that generally they are told that: Its our turn now.

              I agree though that innocents in all ethnic groups were suffering. This however doesnt mean that Pashtuns have to remain silent while NGOs and these folks talk about marauding murdering Pashtuns.
              "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

              Comment


              • #8
                There should be mutual respect for ideologies, life, liberty, and property on both sides of the ethnic and religious divide, but playing the innocent card all day and all night and then telling the Pashtuns that their marginalization is simply historical blowback borders on ignorant and assinine. If such is the case, then AbdurRahman could simply have burned down Hazarajat and said "blowback."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by randolph85 View Post
                  you are saying afghan minorities are not against the war against the taliban? they are probably more pro war than the western public is in regards to the taliban.
                  this is the case, but I dont think that a villager in Badashkan really cares for that matter.

                  I would say it is called being politically correct. I think the only future for Afghanistan is a Sharia Sunni government that accommodates all ethnics, keeping in line with the preachings of Islam.

                  Ethnic militias, Hazara, Tajik, Pashtun, and Uzbek are the cause of the divisions in the first place. << this is the civil war that brought the rise of the Taliban.

                  These ethnic militias have even been abusing their own people. In the North, many women/girls are beaten into prostitution by their own fathers/husbands in many cases.


                  This is the problem. The crime and disorder which is now in much of the North has been considered by some writers to be one the reasons the Talibans reach is starting to extend into the North, a mostly non-Pashtun region.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lynx View Post
                    this is the case, but I dont think that a villager in Badashkan really cares for that matter.

                    I would say it is called being politically correct. I think the only future for Afghanistan is a Sharia Sunni government that accommodates all ethnics, keeping in line with the preachings of Islam.

                    Ethnic militias, Hazara, Tajik, Pashtun, and Uzbek are the cause of the divisions in the first place. << this is the civil war that brought the rise of the Taliban.

                    These ethnic militias have even been abusing their own people. In the North, many women/girls are beaten into prostitution by their own fathers/husbands in many cases.


                    This is the problem. The crime and disorder which is now in much of the North has been considered by some writers to be one the reasons the Talibans reach is starting to extend into the North, a mostly non-Pashtun region.
                    Ethnical motives are the cause of devision in Afghanistan caused by militia men and commanders. You know that mostly those girls in North are kidnapped or sold Pashtun girls? In the last cases like in Baghland and Takhar both were Pashtun girls kidnapped and beaten or forced by Uzbek b****. You know that such things happen in the south all days? Selling girls and women for prostitutions in Pakistan or near the borders? You ever was in Paktia among the Zadran or Shenwaris? In the south they do it in the Pashtun way and mostly people or medias keep quite and only some of them can send their reports to the international medias. It´s not only girls who get forced to prostitution but also boys and kids. Pashtun tribal devision is a suicide for Pashtuns. They kill eachother, kidnape their neighbours daughters and drug barons like the Sadat family are well-known for kidnapping girls and unmarried women in eastern and southern Afghanistan to sell them in europe or Pakistan.

                    According to officials in police headquarters Kabul, Fawzia Sadaat an active Afghan senator has links to a powerful kidnapping team. The police said on

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shadowgoverner
                      i dont know and dont think there was any of this about a hundred years ago or right before the civil war.

                      in the civil war different factions fought eachother for power while claiming to representing their ethnicity or religious sect.
                      THIS IS A LONG STORY I WILL EXPLAIN OTHERTIME


                      i think nowadays this anti kuchi campagne is part of the fact that there is already and ethnic cleansing of pashtuns going on so there people who mostly belong to those groups want to evict pashtuns from their areas.
                      the same is hapening in north AFG.

                      take a look at this documentary,this give a glimpse into the suffering of Pashtuns under the occupation.
                      People & Power - Return of the Warlords - 7 Oct 09 - Part 1 - YouTube
                      People & Power - Return of the Warlords - 7 Oct 09 - Part 2 - YouTube
                      maybe majority of Pashtuns should go back to the south or turn back to Kuchis which give them more security than living among non-Pashtuns. The hatred and devision is to deep in Afghanistan. I fear a shola that may be called against those innocent Pashtuns of the north who are not related with terrorists and terrorism once NATO and US are out. But in return we have to say non-pashtuns suffered under Pashtun occupation and oppression, too. One can say, yesterday Pashtuns had their time and rights and today non-Pashtuns demand for their time and rights. However, we can stop that things if we accept unitary system or federalism but not a presidential one.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        what will federalism do? the biggest supporters of federalism and the parliamentary system are the ones who barely show up for parliament sessions to begin with. afghanistan has never really had a strong central government to begin with, so i don't get the hype of division.
                        There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

                        Sayyid Qutb

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Yasmeenaah View Post
                          SG, what are origins of Kuchi-Hazaras conflict?
                          Yasmeen, I think it goes back farther than what this paper by the tribal analysis center says:

                          "The animosity between the two different ethnic groups continued. The animosity that developed between Afghanistan’s Durrani monarchs
                          and Pakistan’s rulers over the potential creation of Pashtunistan, a Pashtun homeland that would have been developed at the territorial expense of Pakistan, resulted in a shift in Pashtun Kuchi nomad migration patterns. As Pakistan closed its borders, annual Kuchi migrations stopped movement toward the east and shifted west into Hazara lands where violence often erupted as Hazaras were attacked and murdered by the raiding nomads. The animosity between Pashtun nomads and the settled Hazaras continued to the point that the Karzai Administration created a separate Hazara province, Daikundi, in 2004. The violence and animosity between the Pashtuns and Hazaras continues, however, in the transition zones lying between their adjacent territories."

                          http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/...ara%20Wars.pdf


                          The paper is a good paper in terms of the 1700 and post era. In fact, it provides excellent details.

                          For instance, Ahmad Shah Durrani's excellent Alexandrian leadership qualities are bough out:

                          "All of the Afghan rulers before Abdur Rahman attempted to bring the Hazaras under their control. Ahmad Shah Durrani forced the Mohammad
                          Khwaja and Jaghatu Hazaras under central control and the Behsud Hazaras southwest of Kabul soon followed suit. The Sheikh Ali, Dai Zangi, Dai Kundi, and Jaghuri were pacified and left under the control of their own mirs, the elders of the tribe. Before the campaigns of Abdur Rahman, only the Hazaras of south and southeast portion of the Hazarajat, Oruzgan, remained independent."

                          Like Alexander's preference to have prior leaders stay in power but under his tutelage, Ahmad Shah left the Hazara leadership intact and after subduing them allowed their heirarchy to continue internally without too many impositions. In fact Khwaja revolted a few times and despite bad defeats Ahmad Shah respected his elderly position and put him back on the throne.

                          The other issue here is that the paper assigns Kochis to a certain ere when in fact a huge number of the Pashtun tribes were migratory even in the Ahmad Shah era. So I think their attempt to ascribe the Kochi Hazara clash as recent is sort of unrealistic.

                          Besides not projecting back to Hazara roots in the region in the first place... the paper doesnt take into account another key clue to answer your question: When did the Hazaras convert in masse to shiitism?

                          According to their oral tradition it was when Imam Ali's syed relatives took refuge in area. But this unrealistic and if people are huffing and puffing and laughing at the Qaid Bin AbdurRashid theory of Pashtun conversion then they should laugh at this story as well since it was the sunni Arabs that opened up Afghanistan for the Muslims.

                          The reality historically, for this conversion event lays in the same time era well known to Pashtuns. When we grow up we all see a few Pashtuns here and there who have very rigid anti Shiite views. These are in the minds and hearts of elderly people who are pre Saudi intervention in Afghanistan as well. The reason for this goes back to the Safawid dynasties attempts under Shah Abbas to subjugate Sunni Pashtuns and force convert them into Shiaism. Mir Wais Hotak reversed their momentum and they never recovered it subsequently as Nadir Shah Qoli Beg, Ahmad Shah's mentor was a Sunni in name.

                          However, in that same era the following evidences what I am trying to show with respect to his historical animosity have deeper historical roots than the mass media (e.g. The Kite Runner) allows for:

                          Here is a book called The Other Shiites from the Mediterranian to Central Asia by Monsutti.

                          It tells the truer story on page 175 and discusses how the word Hazar itself denotes the Mongol ancestory that spawned the regional conflict in the first place:
                          First it notes the same event in the Shah Abbas era that pissed off the Pashtuns at Iran and then it goes on to note:
                          "Beyond any direct legacy or influence, however, the conversion of Hazaras to Shiism may have been due to a long process of opposition to neighboring sunni populations, which has continued down to this day."

                          We saw this same phenomena occuring historically when Shah Ismail started the Safawid genocide of Sunnis in Iran and attempted to de-"Arabize" Persia by bringing back Avestan customs (including Nauroz). This is exactly why certain Arab tribes even in Iraq aligned with the Shiites or migrated from Iran proper after the forced conversion. Basically, many groups of the era took on a sunni or shiite label because their adversary ethnic or political affiliate took on the opposite label.





                          Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 05-06-2012, 06:35 PM.
                          "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lynx View Post
                            this is the case, but I dont think that a villager in Badashkan really cares for that matter.

                            I would say it is called being politically correct. I think the only future for Afghanistan is a Sharia Sunni government that accommodates all ethnics, keeping in line with the preachings of Islam.

                            Ethnic militias, Hazara, Tajik, Pashtun, and Uzbek are the cause of the divisions in the first place. << this is the civil war that brought the rise of the Taliban.

                            These ethnic militias have even been abusing their own people. In the North, many women/girls are beaten into prostitution by their own fathers/husbands in many cases.


                            This is the problem. The crime and disorder which is now in much of the North has been considered by some writers to be one the reasons the Talibans reach is starting to extend into the North, a mostly non-Pashtun region.

                            afghans aren't fooled by slogans, you can call the government a republic or emirate or whatever, what matters is the results on the ground. i can tell you with certainty that most minorities hate the taliban and would like to see them destroyed. that doesn't mean they wouldn't want peace talks to end the war but don't think that these people want to see the return of taliban rule on their land, because they don't. the taliban didn't invent peace and security, there was security whenever a leader consolidated their power and defeated their rival. it was true in the north and in the south.
                            There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

                            Sayyid Qutb

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NokiaWnW View Post
                              Ethnical motives are the cause of devision in Afghanistan caused by militia men and commanders. You know that mostly those girls in North are kidnapped or sold Pashtun girls? In the last cases like in Baghland and Takhar both were Pashtun girls kidnapped and beaten or forced by Uzbek b****. You know that such things happen in the south all days? Selling girls and women for prostitutions in Pakistan or near the borders? You ever was in Paktia among the Zadran or Shenwaris? In the south they do it in the Pashtun way and mostly people or medias keep quite and only some of them can send their reports to the international medias. It´s not only girls who get forced to prostitution but also boys and kids. Pashtun tribal devision is a suicide for Pashtuns. They kill eachother, kidnape their neighbours daughters and drug barons like the Sadat family are well-known for kidnapping girls and unmarried women in eastern and southern Afghanistan to sell them in europe or Pakistan.

                              http://www.khaama.com/afghan-female-...kidnapping-987

                              Well, you are actually flat out wrong, it seems you want to pin the bad effects of "freedom" on Pashtun, and at the same time cast Pashtuns are the backward evil Islamic fundamentalists.

                              Pashtun tribal practices have nothing to do with the problems of rape, murder, pimping and prostitution in the North. It is restricted to Mazar i Sharif, and the rest of those non-Pashtun areas.


                              In the North, sexually transmitted diseases have gone up.


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