A real and united Afghanistan better than beeing slave of anyone

[MostafaM]

You people miss the point of the discussion completely except for Khostai.

A nation state that wants to be a strong nation state needs one identity.
The Afghan/Pashtun identity has already achieved to assimilate the non-Afgan/Pashtun ethnicities culturally.
The codes of Afghanyat are understood and lived by the Tajiks, Usbeks, Hazaras etc.
If we compare the Usbeks of Afghanistan and those of Usbekistan, we will see a huge difference.
If we compare the Tajiks of Afghanistan with the Tajiks of Tajikistan, it´s like comparing Russians withn Afghans.

Culturally, Pashtunization is almost complete.
Linguistically not.
The sole reason is that the founding fathers of modern day Afghanistan weren´t ideologically driven people with a Pashtun agenda.

Today minorities try to change the power balance of Afghanistan by trying to implement this narrative of "Farsi is a rich language, Ferdowsi-Rumi etc.".

Let me remind you people that nation states are not build around poets, philosophers or historians. It´s build around an identity that is shared by all.

Afghanyat/Pashtunwali is that identity and everyone who tries to undermine it with fabricated "Khorassan-e Buzurg" talk will achieve one thing: a civil war where you people end up on 10% of the soil in Badakhshan and cry for your lives.

Pashto is not just a language. Pashto is the core of an Afghan/Pashtun identity. "Doing Pashto", the cultural and ethical dimension of the language, is what we should talk about.

Comparing a Farsi, a non-indigenous language in Afghanistan (it originated in the Fars Sattrapi of the Persian Empire and is a WESTERN Iranian language) that replaced indigenous languages like Khwarezmi, Soghdian etc., with a culture is like comparing apples with oranges.

Pashto is the cultural backbone of our land.
Farsi is a language with rich history.


To give you an example:
Germanie´s kings and royal courts always prefered to talk in French untill 1848.
Germany didn´t unite because of poets and the richness of the German language; in fact German has never been a lingua franca or a internationally recognized language.
German was accepted by Dutch, Danish, Swedish, French, Polish, Russian etc. inhabitants of Germany because it was implemented wisely and effectivly as a uniting factor giving all the people in Germany one identity.

I don´t have a problem with Afghanistan being a multi-lingual country but Pashto is the national language. It´s the first official language and it´s what defines Afghanistan.

[MostafaM]

Regarding "Pashtunization":

1. Abdurrahman Khan´s policy of placing Pashtun tribes in the north was done because of the Panjdeh Incident.
Russian forces sized Afghan territory and the inhabitants of Panjdeh didn´t resist a second.
He transfered Pashtuns to the north to counter Russian invasions because he knew his own people.
You people may read his memoires.

2. There was no linguistic Pashtunization campaign unfortunatly.

3. The conflict with the Hazaras was based on the contest of his reign.
He killed alot of Shinwaris, too.
Should we imply that he had an "De-Pashtunization" campaign going on when he killed revolting Pashtun tribes?

When we debate, we should stick to the realities of the time we talk about and not neglect the political and social circumstances.
Abdurrahman Khan himself had his own power base among the Usbek and Turkmens because he had spent much of his life in Bukhara in exile and he had brought them with him back to Kabul after he sized power.

Royals do what they have to do to stay in power.
Interpreting their intentions wrongly is dangerous and makes people like NokiaWnW have a tool to implement his political views by polarizing past events as a propaganda tool for the uneducated youth.

We are not dumb, Nokia.
You can write BS like this to your Shamaliwaal. ;-)

[khushal]

you cant do that without literature mostafa. if there is a lack of literature, than pashto will be in the background in reality no matter what the official language is. The durrani kings couldnt speak pashto because the truth is farsi is richer in literature.
During the pashtunization of the governmnet in Afghanistan from the 50s-70s. It was so retarded that most of the educated class were farsiwans or pashtuns that did not speak pashto like the durranis. They needed translators for even the clerks.
The Germans were successful because they created literature in German.

[MostafaM]

you cant do that without literature mostafa. if there is a lack of literature, than pashto will be in the background in reality no matter what the official language is. The durrani kings couldnt speak pashto because the truth is farsi is richer in literature.
During the pashtunization of the governmnet in Afghanistan from the 50s-70s. It was so retarded that most of the educated class were farsiwans or pashtuns that did not speak pashto like the durranis. They needed translators for even the clerks.
The Germans were successful because they created literature in German.

Identity has nothing to do with literature, Khushal.

People come together based on what they are and on how united they want to be.

Nations have been born out of the ashes of wars, conflicts and occupations and they didn´t need any literature to unite them.

What you describe as "Pashtunization" was the process where state employees had to learn Pashto. There is nothing wrong with learning the language of the majority in a country where you are a state employee.
Calling it Pashtunization leaves a bitter taste in general.

Pashtunization would mean that everything is replaced with Pashto by force. That has naver been the case.

When Germans came together, the had German language in common, they were subject to division into hundreds of small principalities with no rich linguistic presence.
Germanie´s rise came after it was created into one nation state when philosophers like Nietzsche, Heidegger appeared and almost all major noble prices went to Germany in pre-WW-I times.

[NokiaWnW]

Jawed Sharif´s real name is Jawid Durrani.

He should be able to speak Pashto fluently. ;-)

Jawid Sharif´s mother is a Durani Pashtun. He is half half

[Khostai]

Pashtunisation or farsiwanisation or deislamisation are all oxymorons.
Afg culture is predominantely pashtun but not solely pashtun.
For example the national sport is of uzbek origin we have food from all ethnicities.
All the ehnicities wear turbans,pakols,waskat,patoe etc.
Attan is considered the national dance.
The only future is Islamic and Islam is the only thing that unites Afghans.
Offcourse Pashto should have its rightful place,not because some have superiority complex but
because otherwise majority kids will otherwise need to learn a different language than their mother language which is not wise.
So the only thing we can agree on is Islam and that will guarantee everyone the rights.

the last 200 years of tring to bring sharia and Islamic law failed, its time for a secular and democratic Afghanistan. Islam will not unite the country, other wise it would have done it.

[NokiaWnW]

You people miss the point of the discussion completely except for Khostai.

A nation state that wants to be a strong nation state needs one identity.
The Afghan/Pashtun identity has already achieved to assimilate the non-Afgan/Pashtun ethnicities culturally.
The codes of Afghanyat are understood and lived by the Tajiks, Usbeks, Hazaras etc.
If we compare the Usbeks of Afghanistan and those of Usbekistan, we will see a huge difference.
If we compare the Tajiks of Afghanistan with the Tajiks of Tajikistan, it´s like comparing Russians withn Afghans.

You must joking. ''Afghaniat'' is an idealized thing that everyone have, honour, pride etc. You made out it just something ''special'' by giving them a name like 'Afghaniat'. Culturally Afghanistan is strongly diverted but Pashtuns are always those who have to become integrated in their own country. All those Pashtuns who live away from the Pashtun belt adoptet the culture of the non-Pashtuns, their language, their kitchen and many more. You live in a strange world. Those Paki Pashtuns are today different than those in Afghanistan. By culture and language they are closely related with Panjabis. But people in Central Asia like Tajeks or Uzbeks are maybe devided, too, but at least they know eachother and work for a better coexisting and a closer relationship. Russian military power caused nearly 100years different mentalities but with the downfall of the Soviets people turn back to their original roots, culture and identity.

Afghanyat/Pashtunwali is that identity and everyone who tries to undermine it with fabricated "Khorassan-e Buzurg" talk will achieve one thing: a civil war where you people end up on 10% of the soil in Badakhshan and cry for your lives.

The case is when those minorities smashed the dictatorship of fascists and dictators and took their weapons back on their shoulders, Pashtuns´ power decreased to their traditional homelands, eastern and southern Afghanistan, where they make in whole Afghanistan maybe lesser than 40%. According to their demographic per centage and strange, they got their part of the cake. Of course it was planned to use Pashtun identity as Afghanistans´identity but they failed because Pashtuns have not the cultural and historical richness others have.

Comparing a Farsi, a non-indigenous language in Afghanistan (it originated in the Fars Sattrapi of the Persian Empire and is a WESTERN Iranian language) that replaced indigenous languages like Khwarezmi, Soghdian etc., with a culture is like comparing apples with oranges.

Pashto is the cultural backbone of our land.
Farsi is a language with rich history.

Pashto is full of Farsi words. Up to 70% if not to 80% (including pashtunized Farsi words). EVen if Dari/Farsi is not native to Afghanistan, so the people are. Pashto is also not native to Afghanistan and not all Pashtuns are original Pashto-speakers. The Ghalzai Turks adoptet Pashto, as well as Jats, Hindus, Sikhs and other pashtunized groups. Pashtu was once spoken mainly around the sulaiman mountains. How can Pashtu become the backbone of AFghanistan when at least 80% of all institution is in Dari, the medias are dominated, the schools and univeristies, even universities in eastern Afghanistan, Nangrhar or Jalalabad get their materials from Iran and translate them into Pashto and use afterwards both versions. Culture among Pashtuns is Pashtunwali and somehow Talibanism while non-Pashtuns like Balochs celebrate their own culture like Nauroz, Jashan Mayzan and other stuffs. If Pashto is the core of your identity why so much of you guys adopt non-Pashtun languages, culture, listen to their music, movies, read their books etc. ? If that would be the case today everyone would accepting Pashto as it´s mother-tongue but the language is spoken only by 35%. Politics of the past does not reflects reality of the society. Pashto is maybe described officially as first language but reality differs from your world and view. It´s the non-Pashtuns, mainly Farsiwans and Hazaras, who dominate the country in it´s culture, history, identity and glorious. You type Afghan culture and you get informations on Pashtuns just something about Pashtunwali but 90% of the rest are about hundred of traditions, history and history that is close related with Dari or Farsiwans. You are in fact proud of the heritage of non-Pashtuns that you falsefuly claim as yours or as ''Afghan'' in the sense of ''Pashtun''. Type Afghan language and most you get is Dari. Type AFghan music and what you get Dari music, movies and entertainment.

Language and culture, even if your an African, can give you another identity. That was the case on Turks, Mongols, Arabs, Jews, Indians and Pashtuns and the same when the 4 groups were become absorbed by Pashtun confederancy. But in the 21th century expansions are over. Today eitehr you get assimilated or you assimilate.

So all in all, you can assume that maybe 20% of what you define as ''Afghan'' culture or identity is related with Pashto or Pashtuns. If you open a western book about ''Afghan personalities and heroes'' mostly names of non-Pashtuns occures.

[NokiaWnW]

Just look to the Pashtuns in Pak or Pashtns in Afghanistan who live in the non-Pashtun majority regions. Afghanistan get smaller, so the number of Pashtuns. You can help yourself only if you start to promote your own culture, first among your own.

[MostafaM]

Jawid Sharif´s mother is a Durani Pashtun. He is half half

I really don´t know what your problem is.
He lives in Bonn, Germany and I know him because he has been invited to almost all of my families wedding ceremonies.

His name is Ahmad Jawed Sharif Durrani and that name was written on the contracts that we made with him.

http://www.virtualafghans.com/music/ahmad_jawid_sharif/

[khushal]

Nokia,
Those common words that pashtuns and farsiwan use are not farsi words, they are actaully arabic words. Farsi has been arabized, more than 50% of farsi in Iran and more than 35% of farsi in Afghanistan use arabic words and arab root words. You cant even say "thank you" in farsi without using arabic.

[khushal]

Identity has nothing to do with literature, Khushal.

People come together based on what they are and on how united they want to be.

Nations have been born out of the ashes of wars, conflicts and occupations and they didn´t need any literature to unite them.

What you describe as "Pashtunization" was the process where state employees had to learn Pashto. There is nothing wrong with learning the language of the majority in a country where you are a state employee.
Calling it Pashtunization leaves a bitter taste in general.

Pashtunization would mean that everything is replaced with Pashto by force. That has naver been the case.

When Germans came together, the had German language in common, they were subject to division into hundreds of small principalities with no rich linguistic presence.
Germanie´s rise came after it was created into one nation state when philosophers like Nietzsche, Heidegger appeared and almost all major noble prices went to Germany in pre-WW-I times.

It has everything to do with literature. What good is my identity if I cant read about what my identity is. If you want to promote a language, there has to be an incentive. I know many pashtuns who would rather learn farsi, urdu or english as there main language because there is incentive for them to. I cant name one educated pashtun who is not bilingual, but I know many educated farsiwan who only know one language.

there is a joke here in America.
What do you call a person who knows three languages-- trilingual
What do you call a person who knows two languages-- bilingual
What do you call a person who know one language-- an American

The reason Americans dont learn another language even though America has no official language is because there is no incentive for them to. Once an incentive arises, people adapt. I now run into farsiwan who beg me to teach them pashto so they can get jobs as linguists, again incentive is the factor.

[MostafaM]

It has everything to do with literature. What good is my identity if I cant read about what my identity is. If you want to promote a language, there has to be an incentive. I know many pashtuns who would rather learn farsi, urdu or english as there main language because there is incentive for them to. I cant name one educated pashtun who is not bilingual, but I know many educated farsiwan who only know one language.

there is a joke here in America.
What do you call a person who knows three languages-- trilingual
What do you call a person who knows two languages-- bilingual
What do you call a person who know one language-- an American

The reason Americans dont learn another language even though America has no official language is because there is no incentive for them to. Once an incentive arises, people adapt. I now run into farsiwan who beg me to teach them pashto so they can get jobs as linguists, again incentive is the factor.

Khushal,

you and I know very well that we Pashtuns are an oral culture.
To this day the majority of Pashtuns don´t know how to read or write.
Do they still know that they are Pashtun, where they come from and who their ancestors were?
They sure do.

Your other point is correct.
There has to be an incentive.
Today Farsiwans learn Pashto because they want to work as translators or whatever.
There can be an incentive in form of octroyated state policy, too.
If all street names, traffic signs etc.pp. in day to day life is in Pashto, too, the incentive is there.

If the media broadcasts more in Pashto, then this goal can be achieved.

If certain (not all) subjects in school are taught in Pashto, not just Pashto classes, like history or biology, then people will have to adapt to the lingual part of Afghan identity.

[Khostai]

thats your opinion.

seculerism doesnt work in Afghanistan but it is good for europe where there is individualism and the majority is irreligious.

in Afghanistan over majority is muslim so whats the need for a system which is based to serve irreligious people?
So why would they put in pplace a system that disciminates against them and is only good for those irreligious bunch who believe religion should be put out of politics and education.
When the majority doesnt support such a system what makes you think it will work?

Just because it didnt work for the 200 years doesnt mean it will not work now.

Oke its your opnion but I don't think that way, only time will show us how Afghanistan will end, but I still bet on secular democartic state...

[khushal]

@ Mostafa,
Yes, but we must ask ourselves why Afghanistan can produce pashtun leaders such as Amin, Tarikai, Najib, Hekmatyar, Karzai, and even the ones before them that speak better Farsi than their own language and produce Farsiwan leaders such as Masood, Fahim, Khalili, Rabani, Dostom, and others that speak no pashto whatsoever.

It is because we are unable to educate ourselves in pashto becasue we lack literature and pashto based educational institutions, we must learn another language to educate ourselves.

[NokiaWnW]

I really don´t know what your problem is.
He lives in Bonn, Germany and I know him because he has been invited to almost all of my families wedding ceremonies.

His name is Ahmad Jawed Sharif Durrani and that name was written on the contracts that we made with him.

http://www.virtualafghans.com/music/ahmad_jawid_sharif/

Interesting, my cousins live in Germany, too and they are neighbours of him. According to them he is a Farsiwan and only his mother is a Durani Pashtun. However, I know virtual Afghan site. It´s a mainly Pashtun chauvinist site claiming Indian, central Asian and Iranian heritage as theirs. His uncle was famous in the government of the 80s. Do you have the contracts. Can you scan it and upload it here? I mean everyone like ''virtual Afghans'' can claim anyting and you just adoptet it. I just ask because those I know and who met him told he is a Farsiwan (roots to Istalif) by ethnicity with a Pashtun mother.