Pakistan debate

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

@ Sayyaf Khan wror, you do not give evidence for any of the claims you make. Please cite them so we can confirm them ourselves, kana. For instance:

here is evidence:

http://pakobserver.net/200904/02/news/topstories08.asp

http://next-world-war.blogspot.com/2009 ... orism.html

You're not implying, I'm sure, that India is the only country that funds terrorists groups, right? And that Pakistan doesn't support terrorism, right? (Ignore what they tell us in the media; look into its distribution of the funds it receives.)

Pakistan has never funded terrorists, we funded Mujahideen during Afghan Soviet war, and later on we funded Taliban against Northern Alliance and Ahmed Shah Masood. After 9/11 these guys became terrorists and we cut our ties off with these groups.

India was funding BLA, Northern Alliance against Pakistan.

I have no problem with Afghans, your my brothers and sisters, but ever since Afghan governments in the past began to intervene in Indo-Pak conflict we had no choice but to resort to supporting groups such as Taliban.

This is unclear to me. Please re-phrase it when you have time; I really want to understand what you mean and don't wanna make any assumptions.[/quote]

Najibullah and his gov allowed india to operate in Afghanistan against Pakistan, and even during Afghan civil war (1990's) we had to support Taliban against Northern Alliance (who were supported by india/iran).

Pakistan is trying its best to stabilize Afghanistan today

Evidence for this?

here is your evidence:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14662878

http://www.sananews.com.pk/english/2009 ... tan-malik/

we want both Karzai, Northern Alliance, and Taliban to merge together and form a strong and friendly Afghanistan that will stay neutral in Pakistan-india conflict. We can't have a Afghanistan that the indians will use against us because this will force us to fight on two fronts, Afghanistan and on the other front india's million man army. We don't have resources and economy to fight such a war.,

Who's "we"? Who are you speaking for? The average peace-seeking Pakistani citizen/resident, or the government of Pakistan?

[/quote]

Refer to the links o provided you above.

India doesn't care about Afghan blood, they only want to destroy Pakistan

To the Pakistan-loving being, it's "India hates Pakistan and wants to destroy it."
To the anti-Pakistan Pashtun, it's "Pakistan hates Afghans/Pashtuns and wants to destroy us, whether we're in Pakistan or Afghanistan!"

Yes, i agree, Pakistan gov did make mistakes in the past, after all we're not angels, we're human beings. I too hate many of the Elite embers of Pakistan's gov.

Regarding india, i've already explained regarding india in my previous posts.

We've discussed Pakistan's role in the creation and nurturing of Taliban in another thread; it's a commonly accepted fact that Pakistan, through funds from the U.S., nurtures Taliban and created them as well. I will provide evidence if I need to.

[/quote]

Of course, Pakistan did "nurture" Taliban, who's denying? But we never knew they would turn out to be women beating monsters? No one knew what would be the outcome, not even Taliban themselves! Everybody supported them in the beginning, even Afghans welcomed them because they were tired of the civil war.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

Oh, and as they say, History is recorded by the victorious.
That means whatever we read is always biased. ALWAYS. It's always one-sided, and to find a neutral perspective on historical records, you have to look really, really hard but even often in vain.

Now, since it's always someone's perspective and someone's interpretation of certain events, and we know that what we read about Pakistan's history is *always* pro-Pakistan (in our schools in Pakistan, I mean), let's try to take some time out of our lives to read other perspectives of Pakistani history as well. There's a book called Facts are Facts (also titled Facts are Sacred) by our own Khan Abdul Wali Khan. It's the untold story of India's partition, another version of a history related to the Pashtuns.

I've heard it's available in Urdu, Pukhto, and English, and I read it in English. It's accessible online, too, and I'm tryina find it. If anyone else finds it before me, please give the link here. Thanks in advance.

The book offers a *completely* different outlook on Pakistani history, and your impression of the very much revered Qaid Azam might change as well. He provides evidence for whatever he says, too, so that makes it more credible and trustworthy.

i know enough about my country and i'm thankful to Allah for it, though that doesn't mean i hate Afghans or Pashtuns. We are all Muslims.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

Pakistan loves its Afghan brothers.

You might wanna rethink that:

February 2010 - 40 Pashtun laborers killed in Karachi by MQM workers.
April 2009 - 30 Pashtun laborers killed in Karachi by MQM.
May 2007 - 25 Pashtun activists killed by MQM.

And these are just the major incidents. Every week, these MQM (A, H and other factions) thugs gun down Afghan boys who collect recyclable stuff from garbage dumps to make a living... Quetta-wal Chai shops are forcibly closed down in Mohajir areas and noncompliance is answered with bullets. The ANP does nothing.

Ask any Karachiite what the status of Pashtuns (aka Afghans) is in Karachi and he'll tell you how it is.....

MQM ****s don't represent every Pakistani, BTW MQM are Mohajirs from india and bengladesh, their not native Pakistan, though their present generation was born in Pakistan.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

Sayyaf no one is accusing to be an ISI stooge you are equally part of PF.

Thank you my sister, its good to know there are sensible and understanding people on this forum like yourself. For some reason its hard for other to digest that i'm on this forum :?:

[zrasway]

Re: Pakistan debate

^I saw your thread, I think everyone embraced you with love here.

lets keep this debate healthy,

I am new her and I think the Government of Pakistan is corrupt and I love Afghans and Pakistani, Especially Pashtuns(Afghans).

[tor_khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

I think the fundamental point that Sayyaf is avoiding is why almost the entire Muslim world might choose to cooperate politically/trade with India.

Surely they don't have the same level of "India-Hang-Up" syndrome.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

I think the fundamental point that Sayyaf is avoiding is why almost the entire Muslim world might choose to cooperate politically/trade with India.

Surely they don't have the same level of "India-Hang-Up" syndrome.

i'm not avoiding anything, i don't have enough time to refute and answer everyone's questions. i'll be back, i have others things to do in life.

BTW, speaking of syndrome, isn't that what you have? Hatred for Pakistan and its creation?

[Admin Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

Healthy debates are always encouraged, Interesting posts here.

[tor_khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

i'm not avoiding anything, i don't have enough time to refute and answer everyone's questions. i'll be back, i have others things to do in life.

BTW, speaking of syndrome, isn't that what you have? Hatred for Pakistan and its creation?

Actually, you're not being fair and there's a danger that your blind patriotism could cloud some of the discussion here.

I catergorically state that "I don't hate Pakistan" in a previous posting, but yes, I ask logical questions about its creation/purpose/direction. I believe strongly that no country or flag or idea is worth being followed without some consideration of what it is all about, but that's less the issue here.

I still make the point that most Muslims outside Pakistan (the majority of the Muslim world), actually, does not have a problem with India.

[Sayyaf_Khan]

Re: Pakistan debate

Pakistan is a good country, but I have noticed my Pukhtun brothers are treated very,very bad in Pakistan.

I read some interviews of Pashtuns from Pakistan in BBC and they all said they were considered bad, and all the Pakistani's here seem to conclude me to the fact that they are horribly treated.

I think Pashtuns only enjoy political elite status in Afghanistan where they have been in rule since its inception.

although i do agree with you somewhat, but you can't say Pashtuns are treated bad everywhere in Pakistan!
In Karachi those MQM b@st@rds have always been hell bent on creating problems for our people, but that doesn't mean its like that everywhere!

Pashtuns have a very prominent role and place in Pakistan's society. Pashtuns make up 36% of Pakistan's armed forces, Pakistan's previous presidents have been Pashtuns (Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan), Pakistan's famous nuclear scientist and National Hero Dr. Abdul Qadir Khan is a Pashtun, and every Pakistani dearly loves him

[Roshina]

Re: Pakistan debate

But, Sayyaf wror, that's an extremely one-sided view. I REALLY don't see who it's trying to represent, and I still don't know who the "we" is in there.

(Besides, if the government can't be liked or appreciated and the army can't be respected, what exactly IS there to like about a country? If the people, they can be liked regardless of where they live -- whether in that country or elsewhere. If the beautiful valleys, rivers, mountains of it, then those aren't really in the country's hands to begin with; they're natural, and they were there BEFORE the country was ever placed on the map, and they'll be there long after as well. So, really, what to hate or like in a country?)

Then you also repeat that you hate India but forget that when others say they hate Pakistan, they don't necessarily mean the average Pakistani person; but I wanna know what *you* mean when you say you hate India. Chances are, for the same reasons you hate India, I and many other Pukhtuns hate Pakistan. Exact same reasons, actually.

Further, you consider hatred for Pakistan a certain syndrome. May I ask if you'd consider hatred for India also a syndrome? If not, why not?

As for Pakistan's creation, ANY Pakistan-born individual who knows how Pakistan was created and has read more than one side of the story will oppose it; I'm 10.8% sure on this. That, especially if she/he is Pashtun.

When I suggested that you -- and all other Pukhtuns and Pakistanis -- read Wali Khan's book, I didn't mean that you don't know anything about Pakistan's history. Sorry if that's how it sounded, but I didn't at all intend that. I recommend and STILL recommend that book because it's a Pashtun version of the creation of Pakistan. You'll learn SO much from it, and I can fully guarantee you that you'll realize that there's more than one side to this whole Pakistan debate thingie and that people actually have perfectly legitimate reasons for hating/disliking/denying Pakistan.

And, c'mon, bro It's not hard for anyone to digest you're on this forum; you're not the only pro-Pakistan Pashtun around here, man. Just because some of us strongly disagree with you doesn't mean we don't accept you or find it hard to believe that you're here, lol.

[Roshina]

Re: Pakistan debate

although i do agree with you somewhat, but you can't say Pashtuns are treated bad everywhere in Pakistan!
In Karachi those MQM b@st@rds have always been hell bent on creating problems for our people, but that doesn't mean its like that everywhere!

It's never, EVER "everywhere," bro. Neither is it ever "ALL." I doubt anyone here's implying that ALL Pakistanis mistreat ALL Pukhtuns, or that Pukhtuns are disrespected ALL over Pakistan.

Pashtuns have a very prominent role and place in Pakistan's society. Pashtuns make up 36% of Pakistan's armed forces, Pakistan's previous presidents have been Pashtuns (Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan), Pakistan's famous nuclear scientist and National Hero Dr. Abdul Qadir Khan is a Pashtun, and every Pakistani dearly loves him

One question: What is the main job/profession that Pashtuns have in Karachi and other non-Pashtun areas of Pakistan? Depending on what you answer, my response will be based on my Karachi friends who regularly visit back home as well as Pashtuns who have lived in Karachi before and some who still live there today. (I myself have never been to Karachi.) Understand that life is never the same for ALL people; it's silly and unjust to assume that because your own life is good/bad, all other people of you faith/race/color lead the same life, or that just because you're treated well/badly by a certain group of people, all your other people are treated in the same manner.

[larawbar]

Re: Pakistan debate

Although the Government needs to improve, as an Afghan I love and respect Pakistan.

[napkineater]

Re: Pakistan debate

Pakistan government is full of thugs, I have nothing against its citizen I love them equally just as much as Afghans, I agree with Karzai saying they are twins. But the Government is non-Muslim in my eyes.

[pir_Rokhan]

Re: Do you hate Pakistan?

I agree with most of you here regarding the corrupt and selfish government of Pakistan, but that doesn't mean every Pakistanis is like that.

1)Now regarding Afghanistan and India, you see when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, India was fully supporting the Russians, and in fact there was Indian intelligence presence in Afghanistan.

2) India was secretly funding, supporting the terrorist organization BLA in Pakistan's Baluchistan province, India was once again playing the same game it played before during the 1971 war, they basically wanted to break away Baluchistan from Pakistan by supporting a separatist insurgency. So this is why we Pakistanis get worried when india comes into Afghanistan, we shouldn't forget that it was india who funded the terrorist group "Mukhti Bahini" in East Pakistan and then finally violated and crossed the international border of East Pakistan with its army.So you tell me, how can we let this same enemy into Afghanistan? Especially when india funded BLA in 1980's?

3) And this same india funded MQM criminals and thugs.

4) Today BLA has once again been brought back from the dustbin of History ever since America allowed india into Afghanistan. Many sophisticated weaponry and communications devices have been captured from TTP and BLA insurgents, now where are they getting enough cash to buy all this? simple, their indian agents in Afghanistan have got them covered.

5) I have no problem with Afghans, your my brothers and sisters, but ever since Afghan governments in the past began to intervene in Indo-Pak conflict we had no choice but to resort to supporting groups such as Taliban.

6) Now regarding Iran, once again our problem with Iran is about regional strategic depth. Iran has helped india numerous times before, and even now they are a little doubtful of Pakistan. But Pakistan has been improving its relations with Iran lately, we helped them capture Jundullah leader and both nations are going to finalise the Iran-Pakistan-China oil pipeline.

7) Pakistan is trying its best to stabilize Afghanistan today, we want both Karzai, Northern Alliance, and Taliban to merge together and form a strong and friendly Afghanistan that will stay neutral in Pakistan-india conflict.

8) We can't have a Afghanistan that the indians will use against us because this will force us to fight on two fronts, Afghanistan and on the other front india's million man army. We don't have resources and economy to fight such a war.

9) India doesn't care about Afghan blood, they only want to destroy Pakistan, heck while Pakistan was helping to negotiate peace between Taliban and Karzai, india was begging America to stay in Afghanistan for few more years and not negotiate with Taliban.

Chowdry Sayyaf sahib


You have assumed that what ever you have studied in Pakistan studies is sacred revelation and any other genuine argument is like a blasphemy.


1) Indian support for Russia during Afghan war was very justified. India is a respectable member of N.A.M and has been anti imperialists so was the Dr Najib’s govt.While Pakistan’s support of USA was just for US dollars. Every one knows it and admits it. There is so much literature on it. What Pakistan gained from supporting US in Afghan war.Nothing.It was just Chowdry Zia act to strengthen and legitimise his regime. It gave death, destruction and Kalashnikov culture to Pakistan. Ask Punjabi journalists. Even they have admitted it. Ask Nazir Naji about Ojri camp. Ask your hero Hameed Gul.Ask that stereotype Brig Imam. All these criminals even admit that in the long run Pakistan dint gain anything. Have a heart in addition to a brain.


2) BLA is a freedom fighter organization against the illegal occupation of Punjab. Ever man of conscience should support it. Visit ww.Balochwarna.com to read about it. So your wrong assumptions and misconceptions are cleared.

Shaikh Mujib was the bone of contention in the eyes of then military and now his movement of freedom which succeeded is disliked by the peon of the military. Bengal is free now.Balochistan; Pakhtunkhwa and Sind are in line.



3) MQM was the product of your beloved ISI and army under Chowdry Zia to counter People's party.

4) Why is that you praise Taliban in Afghanistan as they are your puppets, the puppets of your military and ISI,of Naseerullah Babar and Col Imam type morons. You hate TTP because one faction among them has turned against your banana state. What double standards are these?. When Pakistan make Afghans orphan by doing terrorist activities then they are happy and when your Punjabi masters's families are affected you start ranting against TTP- who were your own product. What a shame?


5) Pakistan has always intervened into the affairs of Afghanistan on the contrary. What a devil's advocacy this is?


6) I agree Pakistan has improved relations with Iran and have also committed proliferation as you admitted yourself. This is what exactly world is concerned about. Iran’s theocratic govt is as fanatic as your fundamentalist parties like JUI, JI, Tablighi Jummat which have been the nurseries of extremism and terrorism.


7) No one has asked Pakistan to stabilise Afghanistan. It should first stabilise herself then should think about others. Have you established " Khilafata Rashida" of Taliban in Pakistan which you suggest to Afghanistan?.Afghanistan is not the client state of Pakistan.Afghanistan will decide for herself whether to become a party or keep nuetral in conflict according to her national interests.


8) Afghanistan is a sovereign state established 200 years earlier than Pakistan [revised version 1971].Pakistan has no right to dictate her policies or install their puppets like Taliban and Hikmatyar type of ISI stooges there.


9) India has helped Afghanistan in Infrastructure and other fields being the world growing economy and a world fastest IT resource hub for the whole world. Pakistan on the contrary is the hub of terrorists and suicide bombers and has been involved in killing and genocide of Pashtuns and Afghans for the last 30 years.