Fake and real future MAPS of Pashtunlands

[ComradePashtun]

Graver, not every one is your league to not understand things.

[ComradePashtun]

By the way this is the same guy "parsiwan".

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Here we go, so they claimed to be Pashtuns? And what about the Kandahari commanders who fought for Massoud? In Afghanistan solidarity is based on locality and region, and not too much on ethnicity particularly in mix areas. That doesn't prove you outrageous claim for self soothing. Remember Abdullah and Karmal still stuck in your aas.

Did I said anything about Pashtun commanders who were allied with Massoud? You just invent new claims. Abdullah is half-Pashtun and Karmal was a Farsiwan but he did not claimed beeing a Pashtun. He had Pashtun and Tajik relatives and he never told that he is a Pashtun or Tajik. When his father worked for the old elite, he introduced himself as a Pashtun. Why ethnicity is so much important? You get your identity through a language and a culture, not through your ethnical or genetical origin. An Arab can became a Turk in Anatolia if he accepts Turkish and the regional culture. ->INTEGRATION
Now you guys accuse me beeing this User and than that User. The one call me Paristani, the other Parsiwan and again another one call me a spy.

[ComradePashtun]

Abdullah is son of Qudus e Panjsheri. His mom married the same barrister who got her divorce from Abdullah's real dad. So he was raised by Kandahar kakooo. Yes of course Karmal claimed to be Pashtun, his father also did. What shame, you still want to argue that his father did but he didn't. As I said it before you are a cheap dullard. Ethnicity is important for you and lying that Pashuns claim to be Tajiks. lol When the very "Tajik" is a myth.

[ComradePashtun]

You got some beats Kadozadah, shame.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Abdullah is son of Qudus e Panjsheri. His mom married the same barrister who got her divorce from Abdullah's real dad. So he was raised by Kandahar kakooo. Yes of course Karmal claimed to be Pashtun, his father also did. What shame, you still want to argue that his father did but he didn't. As I said it before you are a cheap dullard. Ethnicity is important for you and lying that Pashuns claim to be Tajiks. lol When the very "Tajik" is a myth.

Stop inventing any pervert myths about Mr. Abdullah. Provide your claim with some good sources. From where do you know that his father was a Panjshiri or a Tajik? I think you are between 20 and 25 years old. You need some more years to understand the issues of the past. You self wrote you have not much clue about the issue. Keep on.

If Tajik is a myth why it is used in every page that´s about Afghanistan? Tajiks are reality and they stand behind your doors houses. They are in Kandahar, Hilmand, Herat, Kabul .... everywhere. You can not deny them. Tajiks or Uzbeks in Kunduz also don´t deny that Pashtuns exist there. Even if that word would be a myth, at least 11mio people alone in Afghanistan identify themself with that ''mythical'' word. Even Dari should be called as Tajiki because it´s originally the language of Farsiwans (Tajiks) such as Pashtu is called after Pashtuns. You are the guys who are ethnocentrics and always were. If someone had to hide his identity in the past than because of your tribal and ethnocentric system but those days are gone. Just look what you write about non-Pashtuns in this forum. You permanently write about Tajiks here and there.

[khushal]

All your arguements are beaten, Khushal. Broken down and then thrashed aside. ;-)

lol. When did you prove that Hazara and Tajiks are ethnic Afghans. According to your stupidity the Americans are also "Afghan."

[khushal]

Khushal,

In Afghanistan we are not imposing nothing on no one. Afghanistan is a free country.

Your funny, what free country? Are you a comedian or something. Afghanistan is locked in war caused by ethnic issues. The majority of the disenfranchised are pashtun. Leave this Nationalist ideology, it will destroy you without realizing it.

[khushal]

Well that is the case, but ultimately we are political being, and mine and Tajik person's thinking is almost the same as it is that thinking that governs our lives and wellbeing. It becomes veery innate. I am not denying that Pashtuns have ethnic and liguistic bonds, that being there, we also have a national culture in Afghanistan and a Pakistani Pashtun can hardly relate to that as it would be the case with a Pashtun from Ghazni for whom a Pashtun like Shahbaz Khan would be a stranger and his "teek da jeee teek da" are alien words. Shahbaz can relate more to a Panjabi than you notwithstanding what your blood group is. He could hardly give a sh!t! That is why if it is in Shahbaz's interest to destroy Afghanistan to serve the interest of Pakistan, he would not hesitate it. From Ayub Khan Pashtun to the very forward operating agents of ISI have proven their supreme allegiance and loyalty to the state of Pakistan.

I have nothing in common with Luffy, Shahbaz etc. although I respect them. I do have in common with BLS, Khyal, tor-khan etc. but not mainstream Pakistanis.

See how little you know about the pashtuns in Pakistan. Ayub Khan was not a pashtun. He worked against pashtun causes in Pakistan, he imprisoned many pashtun poets and scholars including Bacha khan. He was a Hindiko from the Hazara district in KP. His son is currently working to separate the Hazara district from KP and create a separate province. He is about as anti pashtun as you can get.
There are pashtuns that are loyal to Pakistan but they are only the feudal elites, they are a minority who have managed to sway the population their way.

Loopy is not a pashtun, shahbaz is brainwashed or just does not care about his people. He is seeking self interest projects.

[khushal]

Kabulzada,
You are about as dumb as they come. First you claim that Tajiks are ethnic Afghans/pashtuns and now you claim that Afghan/Pashtuns claim they are Tajiks. You leave me no choice but to give you the "stupidest guy on the forum" award. Dont be flattered, its not a good award.
I have given you numerous sources and the world knows us as "Afghan" while you are just babbling idiot.

Either give sources or shut the hell up.

[Admin Khan]

Greetings,
I hope you are in good health.

I know that Indians used the word Patan for Pashtuns. That´s well recorded but how can Mr Abdullah Abdullah be your enemy?

Perhaps English isn't your first language. Let me reiterate, no where did I imply that Abdullah^2 is my enemy. I do however know that he not only takes pride in his 'Kandahari roots' but he openly claims he has Pashtun blood running through his veins. You might want to look it up. What I did say is many people consider him a sell out, for being an obvious rishwatkhor[for which he was called out by an honorable woman].
YouTube - ‪Afghan Election fraud Dr Abdullah Abdullah bribed $10 million to not contest Karzai CIA US Puppet‬‏

Hmm, $10million.

My question with Pathan was how many Pashtuns from Pakistan acted against Afghanistan and it´s people.

Many. There are Dari-speakers like Nick Khan who advocate a loy Afghanistan, and there are some Pashtuns who are against Afghanistan, let alone Loy Afghanistan. It's common sense brother. It's basic combinatorics.

My intention was never to insult or defame anyone. Neither directly nor undirectly.

I've read some of your posts where you were inadvertently associating homosexuality with Pashtun poets. Perhaps you are unaware that some Persian poets were notorious for that as well? As you can see, we both can play that game but that would be pathetic of me to stoop down to your level. If you don't know Pashto, it's sort of pathetic of you to tell us what Khushal Khan said in his poetry. Study poetry, and Pashto first before you pass such comments.

Sometimes I feel that our Pashtun brothers think Pashtuns are the people of heaven who do not have any sins and failures.

Whoever thinks that way is wrong. Nonetheless, I sometimes think some of our Tajik brothers are blind, or perhaps lack the ability to logically think. Let me make this easier for you, since it's obvious that you selectively quoted me here. Afghanistan, the land of Afghans, has a lot to do with Pashtuns. And it's common sense as to why it would. For starters, they are the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan, and the worlds largest tribe[patriarchal]. Afghanistan, since it's modern inception into global politics, has been ruled by Pashtuns. The minute you start studying Afghan history, you stumble on Pashtuns. Not to mention, nearly every aspect of your history revolves around spera Pashtuns. In fact, not having a Pashtun king or president is just as weird as England not having a white prime-minister. However, don't quote me out of context. If I see an honest, humble Uzbek, I would love to have him as my president. As you can see, I'm big on who can provide better opportunities for Afghans. Unlike you, I am not a chauvinist and don't care if a Pashtun or Uzbek is in the presidential palace. An honest man, who promises equality is in the interest of all Afghans. Someone who views all Afghans as equals, and recognizes Pashto and Dari to be on par.

If you talk about some negative aspects of our society they believe I want to insult them by naming negative things.

You are welcomed here personally by me. I am honestly glad you are here. But, you need to know that by posting a bunch of "lols, show me Pashtun influence or history lol lol". It's obvious that the aforementioned is something one would expect by a troll, who's primary objective is to infuriate the community.

We need to talk and discuss about every negative aspect of Afghanistan to change for a better future not only for ourself but also for our parents, children and other people who might want to settle in Afghanistan.

Yes, but you can't accomplish that by refusing to recognize Pashto as equivalent to Dari in Afghanistan. You need to recognize, embrace, and accept Pashto as your left eye, and Dari as your right eye, or vice-versa. Pashto influences your life in Afghanistan. Which I am sure if you are humble you are aware of. Like I stated, if you don't know Pashto in Afghanistan, you can't be a businessman, and will suffer. And I went on with several examples. As far as unity is concerned, we can only sit on the table when you begin to admit the great accomplishments of Pashtun figures such as Ahmad Shah Baba, Sher Shah Suri, Mirwas Hotak, Shah Mahmood Hotak, etc. Like I said before, the ball is in your court because it is you who questioned our history and influence. I have yet to even provide my own opinion on the matter because I am busy posting refutations to your outrageously absurd claims. You even went as far as saying we create our own history. As if we pulled Bacha Khan, and Sher Shah Suri, out our behinds.

If I say that Taliban are by majority Pashtuns than what is wrong with that assumptation? Why I become an enemy of Pashtuns while I repeated myself 100 times that I am half-half and I do not care about ethnicity and religious belief of someone.

If you are half, you shouldn't be rubbing myths and nonsense about Pashtuns in the face of the members here. Spread unity, not disunity. You were even questioning the influence of Pashtuns, as if you are perhaps unaware that nearly every ruler of Afghanistan is a Pashtun, and the modern nation that you defend was founded by a Pashtun. Also, don't get me wrong, I am also against Pashtuns who are ethnocentric. We have to recognize minorities like Tajiks, and give them their proper rights. Tajiks are not our slaves. They are our brothers, along with innocent Punjabis, Romanians, and Greeks. We are humans at the end of the day.

That was what I wrote. Original meaning of Afghan is Pashtun and vice versa but the meaning has changed. Pakistani Pashtuns have no right to call themself as Afghans.

There is a difference between nationality, and ethnic group. A Pakistani citizen has no right to claim he is an Afghan national, but a Pashtun from Pakistan has every right in the world to claim he is an Afghan by ethnicity. It's sort of like being German. Just because you were born in Germany does not mean you are German, but you are however, a German national. By your logic, if a German is born in Ohio, he is no longer a German? As you can seen, your logic has obvious holes. To make this a bit elementary for you, Pashto is historically known as Afghani, and Pashtuns whether they are from Mars or Jupiter are known as Afghans. Look at Sher Shah Suri, he is idolized in India for his great accomplishments, but at the end of the day Indians refer to him as an Indian Afghan, or just an Afghan. Every single Pashtun of the world has an alternative word for himself, Afghan. In fact, a serious proposal for NWFP[now Pashtunkhwa] was Afghania. I wonder why. Could it be because the majority of Pashtunkhwa are humans of Afghan ethnicity? I'll let you figure it out.

They are Pathans, Pashtuns or Rohilla but no Afghans.

This tells me you are largely unfamiliar with Pashtun history, and that might perhaps explain your self-defeating logic. Pashtuns of Pakistan, similar to Afghan Pashtuns, come in all different tribes, shapes, and sizes. Let me give you a few quick examples, there are Noorzais, Achakzais in Kandahar, and the same exact tribes are also found in Quetta. They have married one another, and for obvious reasons they don't recognize the line because it divides their families. When Musharraf proposed to seal the border, the Pashtuns of Pakistan fiercely opposed it. Don't compare the Pashtun situation to the Tajik situation, where a Tajik in Afghanistan has no association with Tajikistanis. Pashtuns of Pakistan and Afghanistan are cousins. In some cases, the aunt lives on one side of Durrand, and the uncle lives on the other. You mustn't forgot that Pashtunkhwa was once part of Afghanistan. Please re-read my previous posts for a better understanding.

Can you bring some evidance for that claim? What have Shir Shah Suri and Abdul Ghaffar Khan to do with Afghanistan or the region that is today called as Afghanistan?

Oh my, Google is your friend. Ask the Indians as to how much they love and respect Sher Shah Suri, the Afghan/Pashtun leader who was arguably one of the best social-reformers and leaders in Indian history. His accomplishments are one of a kind. With all due respect, I don't have time to teach you the basics. It's evidently visible that you are not fluent in Afghan/Pashtun history, and I urge you to read some books from our library, known as the Kitabtoon. The Kitabtoon is a free resource, and It will certainly guide you in your quest for gaining knowledge, pertaining to Pashtun/Afghan affairs.

Specially Tajiks and Iranians had the most influentable history in the region and noone can compare it´s history with them.

When you have this kind of attitude, you will never witness Afghan unity. I never denied that great Parsiwaan figures existed. I never denied that Newton was a great scientist. Why are you passing me the ball? The ball is in your court because you questioned our history and influence, and I gave you a handful of examples, scenarios of Pashtun influence, of which you had no rebuttals for thus far. There are tons of great Tajiks, Americans, and Germans! But there are also great Ahmad Shah Baba's, Sher Shah's, Bacha Khan's, etc. You live in a country founded by a Pashtun, perhap you should make a dua for Ahmad Shah Baba in your prayers for giving you your Afghan identity. Khudai de wabakshi. Ameen.

Well, that´s true. The national anthem is in Pashtu, and many names of state´s constitution and the children speak some words Pashtu but will that change anything? Btw, the military ranks are not in Pashtu. Half of them are in english or french and half is in Dari or Arabic. Askar, Sarbaz, Turan ....

I never said it will change anything. Me giving you currency examples, and the Pashto words example was my attempt to show you that you live and breath Pashto without even knowing about it. Tajik ministers proudly say "The Loya Jirga did ........and Masharano jirga did this...". Pashto influence in Afghanistan is all over the place. It's a national language, the same way Dari is the official language. Pakistan is a whole different ball game, where I sadly admit that Pashto has little to no role at all. It's all Urdu in Pakistan. Honestly, overall, I am glad you admitted that what I said was true. The last thing I wanted was for you to tell me Kabul does not have Pashto influence, and that Pashtunistan square and all those meenas named after spera Pashtuns don't exist. Oh and military ranks are not in Pashto? So words like Dagarwal are now Dari, and French? As you can see, you are once again advertently denying the influence of Pashto.

Dear brother, who are those enemies who want a further devide of the nation? Isn´t it Karzai and the more and more Pashtuncentric government who invites the Taliban to the parliamentary and call them ''sons of Afghanistan'' or ''brothers''?

Taliban foot soldiers are Afghans, and they are the sons of the nation obviously. Whether they have deviated or not is another discussion, but yes they are the children of Afghanistan who have picked up guns because they have probably witnessed torture of some sort by either a NA official, or Nato official. The aforementioned is just one example of the Taliban. As we know, the term Taliban is way too broad, and nowadays it's applied to anyone who voices frustration against Northern Alliance corrupt war-lords.

Didn´t the Taliban self devided the country between Pashtun and non-Pashtun? Just, Daudzai claimed Pakistan and ISI are not backing Taliban and are close friends of Afghanistan. Haven´t you read or heard that? You may mean Abdullah or Saleh or Atmar but those guys are very nice guys.

I have yet to voice my political stance. And I'd rather keep it to myself. So if you think Saleh, or Atmar are nice guys, that's your opinion which I respect. I don't wish to discuss politics with members. I'm just debunking your claims which I feel hold no water.

You just need to meet them and talk with them. I met Saleh. All of them have only one aim. Cutting off Taliban and Pakistani´s hands in Afghanistan.

Good for you.

How and why should I deny that undeniable fact? I can´t. But I don´t understand in which context this statement stand. I did not say anything about non-Pashtuns in south that could not speak Pashtu. They have to speak and integrate themself into the southern society. If they wnat to survive they have to be one of the southern people. And that´s happen everywhere. A minority enter a majority and have to accept integration. Btw, from where are you? Where do you live currently? You speak German?

I am a Pashtun.

Change the question and ask yourself why it is only in Pashtu when Pashtu and Dari are equally national and official languages of Afghanistan.

Pashto is the language of the Afghanistan's largest ethnic group.

Non-sense. Please provide an accurate reference to that quotation that is nowhere mentioned in any non-Afghan sources. Can you please provide one source for that claim? Then, Pashtuns did not exist. The nation of Pashtuns formed itself during the islamic conquest and modern Pashtuns are not the same as their ancestors possibly were because modern Pashtuns have adoptet/assimilated more foreign elements from other origins, too. You just repeat the same fake quotations you once found on any Pashtun websites or any book that was written by self claimed Pashtun historians. Even they could not use any reference for their claims and sayings, except writing something to make people feel proud. It´s like creating a positive lie about Muhammad pbuh.

Oh my, once again you are searching for ways to persuade people that Pashtuns never existed, and how we magically arrived from Jupiter. For the 2nd time, Pashtuns are known for their history and physical strength. From the Indians, to the Persians, to the British, to the Greeks, to the Russians. Our marks can be found all over the place and our resistance has been felt by all dominating empires of their respective time. In fact, Britain considers Pashtuns as a martial race. I can't spoon feed you with information that is common sense. Pashtuns have respect and history under their belts. That, however, does not negate the possibility of other ethnic groups shining. I made my stance ultra-clear in my previous post about non-Pashtuns.

Of course- Mainly Tajiks (Nuristanis, Uzbeks, Hazaras, Turkmen) ''drove'' Tajiks out since majority of the Mujaheddins from south and eastern were either attacking constantly innocent people in Kabul, raping and killing their families, destroying any villages or cities of any opposition they did not take part in the direct fighst against Soviets. They could not even really entre the main battlefield which was northern and central Afghanistan.

Once again, nonsense. Do you read what you write? The South is the most dangerous part of Afghanistan. Go ask NATO. Ask a NATO official to compare how they feel in Kandahar, and how they feel when they enter a northern province. For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan." Let me guess, the quote is about Tajiks? The British got whooped by Tajiks 3 times? NATO is witnessing resistance by the Tajiks? Pashtuns are known to be physically stronger, so it's natural to see Pashtuns on the battlefield. This is a commonly accepted fact.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Asalamu alaikum

Perhaps English isn't your first language. Let me reiterate, no where did I imply that Abdullah^2 is my enemy. I do however know that he not only takes pride in his 'Kandahari roots' but he openly claims he has Pashtun blood running through his veins. You might want to look it up. What I did say is many people consider him a sell out, for being an obvious rishwatkhor[for which he was called out by an honorable woman].

He never made a secret beeing a Pashtun. No matter full or half.

Many. There are Dari-speakers like Nick Khan who advocate a loy Afghanistan, and there are some Pashtuns who are against Afghanistan, let alone Loy Afghanistan. It's common sense brother. It's basic combinatorics.

Nick is maybe a Dari-speaking Arab or whatever but he is not accepeted among Dari-speakers. That´s why he ran to this forum. In real life he is posibly a very pathetic person.

I've read some of your posts where you were inadvertendly associating homosexuality with Pashtun poets. Perhaps you are unaware that some Persian poets were notorious for that as well?

i did not deny that. I brought the issue of homosexuality in Pashtun literature because one accused Tajiks beeing gay or gayms belong to north, only to north.

If you don't know Pashto, it's sort of pathetic of you to tell us what Khushal Khan said in his poetry. Study poetry, and Pashto first before you pass such comments.

My Pashtu is not good, even bad, but my grand-father bought me his poems translated to Dari and I bought one with German translations. I am very related with some of his poems.

Afghanistan, since it's modern inception into global politics, has been ruled by Pashtuns. The minute you start studying Afghan history, you stumble on Pashtuns.

But Afghans history began outside Afghanistan in modern Pakistan. Even Ahmad Shah Abdali´s era to the time of Dost Muhammad can not be counted as Afghanistan. Afghanistan exists in it´s current border because of UK and Russia and it´s history started with Abdurahman Khan. To the same era we can say that the propaganda that Afghanistan is a Pashtun state was starting from that time when Pashtun nationalists rised. But reality differ from novels and fantasies. We see it everyday. Dari is here and there, Dari culture is shown here and there, education in Dari is here and there and Dari books are provided to provinces where Pashtuns are 100% dominant. The claim Pashtuns are the majority of Afghanistan is based on the basic of Pashtunization of Afghanistan during Nader Shah Musahiban who called the state in the public as a Pashtun state. But non-Pashtusn proved him and his children many times wrong. On the basic of culture, language, war, and many more. There are no majorities in Afghanistan.

When you have this kind of attitude, you will never witness Afghan unity.

But this is just a deniable fact. You are proud of Ghaznavids, Ghurids, Kart Maliks, Abu Muslim, Khorasan, Islam, Maulana and all of them were non-Pashtuns. Even India, Turkey, Uzbekistan .... praises them.

But there are also great Ahmad Shah Baba's, Sher Shah's, Bacha Khan's, etc.

I did saluted for them in my post. Just read it again brothr Jan

You live in a country founded by a Pashtun

A country founded by foreigners by drawing it´s borders, installing their own puppets, deviding many people to two or three fractions and more. Ahmad Shah Abdali was not the founder of Afghanistan. He just created a fundament of a future Afghanistan. That´s all. The claim he was founder of Afghanistan is the claim of nationalists from the 30s. There is not even a single book that would back such a stupid claim. Ahmad Khan self proclaimed himself as Amir e Khorasan o Mawarannar. His entire existence was based on his non-Pashtun generals, bodyguards and administrators. Ahmad Shah Abdali could rule over non-Pashtuns because of it´s non-Pashtun vazirs and administrators. Against warlike Hazaras (then) he couldn´t do anything and Hazaras kept their independance tough killing under command of Kamran Shah some 30 000 to 50 000 Hazara rebells. The Baluchs defeated him many times and became only annected throug diplomacy. Unfortunately, modern people draw their fantasy´s maps when they want to show us Ahmad Shah´s empire.

perhap you should make a dua for Ahmad Shah Baba in your prayers for giving you your Afghan identity

You mean Afghan identity in the sense of Pashtun identity? Actually, I adoptet through my father´s language and culture a non-Pashtun identity. The term Afghan self has lost it´s historical relationship in the last 45 years from Pashtun to all non-Pashtuns and Pashtuns only for the people who live within Afghanistan.

I never said it will change anything. Me giving you currency examples, and the Pashto words example was my attempt to show you that you live and breath Pashto without even knowing about it. Tajik ministers proudly say "The Loya Jirga did ........and Masharano jirga did this...". Pashto influence in Afghanistan is all over the place.

Are you actually aware that loya jirga and all those other words are not native words? Loya Jirga comes (including the word loya self) from the altaiic languages and means greater tent. It was adoptet by Pashtuns from Turks.

It's a national language, the same way Dari is the official language.

I never deny that. I always support the dual-language system in Afghanistan. That´s alsoa reason why i am here. I want to deep my Pashtu experiences.

So words like Dagarwal are now Dari, and French? As you can see, you are once again advertently denying the influence of Pashto.

Dagarwal is not Pashtu. As it is not French. We can list all the ranks here and let´s see how many of them are taken from English, Latin, French, Arabic, and Dari. It has the same roots as ''Andiwal'', specific Dari charakters of eastern-Persian language. It consists of two words. One is Dagh and the second is wal ...for diwal..like in andival (friend, neighbour). My little brother serves in the army and he has close contacts with local army members.

Taliban foot soldiers are Afghans, and they are the sons of the nation obviously. Whether they have deviated or not is another discussion, but yes they are the children of Afghanistan who have picked up guns because they have probably witnessed torture of some sort by either a NA official, or Nato official.

I support your claim 100%. There are criminal elements among ANA but on the other hands the Taliban self are not innocent. They massacred civilians because of their belief or ethnicities. What these people do is nothing else than taking revange, Badal, that also exists in Pashtunwali. So a fair process. I am just against attacking innocent people. And in addition, why is ANA guilty when 80% of civilian deaths are caused by Taliban?

Oh my, once again you are searching for ways to persuade people that Pashtuns never existed, and how we magically arrived from Jupiter. For the 2nd time, Pashtuns are known for their history and physical strength. From the Indians, to the Persians, to the British, to the Greeks, to the Russians. Our marks can be found all over the place and our resistance has been felt by all dominating empires of their respective time. In fact, Britain considers Pashtuns as a martial race.

All powers ruled Pashtuns and replaced eachother. Which strenght? Mughals ruled the regions Pashtuns populate for centuries, Turks did, Mongols did, Iranians did, Arabs did, Greecs did. The british did not called only Pashtuns as a warlike people. Beeing warlike does not mean one is powerful or something like that. It means that people are ''wild'' closely to ''barbarian''. The Jats, Gujjaratis, Sikhs .... and many more were described as warlike people and at the same time they were ruled. They had not own independant ruler and were depending on the foreigners. Also Tajiks were once warlike but than they decided that won´t take them anywhere so stop leading wars and killing people instead trying to establish themself over the rulers and diminish foreign elemnts in their regions and lands. That was the time they began to work for science, art, culture, language, wrote books, translated 1300 years ago the Qoran and writing the first human dictionary.

Once again, nonsense. Do you read what you write? The South is the most dangerous part of Afghanistan.

war-like tribes. Pashtuns were thrown under Ahmad Khan Abdali´s rule with war-like kurdish sia-pirush tribes of the Qazalbashs and 4000 men of his own tribe. The north would be dangerous as well if everyone would carry 24h a weapon.

"the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan." Let me guess, the quote is about Tajiks?

non-Pashtus are high respected by Indians due their achivements and cultural beauty. They dropped off their war-like nature, except for some times. Today, some nationalists try to awake the old nature against the enemies of Tajiks. Such dangerous people are Saleh, Ata, Ali Mayzam, Mir Alam and many more.. criminals. They broke the neck of Taliban before 1996 before they got supported by Pakistan and if they reform themself again with modern equippments, they will surely again deal with Taliban, with new allies in Central Asia, with routes that provide them with money, men and weapons, establishing themself already in strategic important regions. I read alread all of their dirty secrets.

The British got whooped by Tajiks 3 times? NATO is witnessing resistance by the Tajiks?

Tajiks defeated them in Malakand and Kabul. Pashtuns killed 12000 civilians and 4000 Indo-British and poor equipped soldiers, once the Pashtuns promised them to let them go through Jalalabad back to their families. I already posted the references. And why should Tajiks fight the NATO? NATO fights Pakistan, Al-qaida, Taliban, the blood enemies of Tajiks. They prefere to join them and kill those enemies. They brought a lot of misery and damage to Afghanistan and non-Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are known to be physically stronger, so it's natural to see Pashtuns on the battlefield.

No, that´s not a fact. Pashtuns are just warlike people. That is all. They think beeing in war is like an adventure. They were many times defeated and many foreigners ruled them. Pashtuns revolted many times but were never able to break any rule. The foriegn rules were just replaced by another foreign rule and when Pashtuns were lucky the new ruler was trying to integrate them into his state...like the Mughals did. Tajiks are, unlike Pashtusn, just urbane people who do not care much about war (as long they are not threatend). They have other problems to care about. Education for their kids, good jobs, a better future for their descandants... and so on. That´s why the dominate Afghanistan cultural and political tough the government is led by a new Pashtun elite.

Thank you for this deep and interesting discussion dear brother.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Albani, i read your words, but you wrong. You think the Tajiks defeated all the empires, then why Tajiks not fighting now? I think most of time they did not fight.

why only the pashtuns are fighting? In history books, everyone knows the pashtuns are fighting warriors.

Read again and you will have the reason in front of your eyes.

I support your claim 100%. There are criminal elements among ANA but on the other hands the Taliban self are not innocent. They massacred civilians because of their belief or ethnicities. What these people do is nothing else than taking revange, Badal, that also exists in Pashtunwali legally. So a fair process. I am just against attacking innocent people. And in addition, why is ANA guilty when 80% of civilian deaths are caused by Taliban?

[khushal]

Kabulzada,
You make claims but you have no sources. You have to prove what you say. No one know s the Tajiks. Everyone knows the Afghans/Pashtuns. Here is your hero Ahmed Shaw Masood who Tajiks claim won the war against the Soviets.

The coward who wouldn't fight.
RAWA.ORG: The Afghan Who Wouldn't Fight (Ahmad Shah Massoud and links with Russians)

See how its done. This is called a source. Instead of grabbing things out of your aas. Go get an education and then come back and see how you do.

[Admin Khan]

Asalamu alaikum

He never made a secret beeing a Pashtun. No matter full or half.

You are now performing a verbal attan with your words. I never said he made it a secret. Please read through my posts, and try to understand the underlying message behind them.

Nick is maybe a Dari-speaking Arab or whatever but he is not accepeted among Dari-speakers.

That's an incredibly dumb statement. Who are you, to assume who is accepted as a Parsiwaan or not? For all I know, I don't accept you as a Parsiwaan. I might feel as if you are some sort of an external intruder, or perhaps you are a C++ program or a similar code. Oh, and for beginners, I've met Nick, I've hanged out with him. He is Afghan inside and out. We had a PF meet up, so a bunch of us met up. We aren't just keyboard warriors my friend. We, for the most part, know each other personally. Not that it matters.

That´s why he ran to this forum. In real life he is posibly a very pathetic person.

Shame on you. Please, do me a favor and don't live up to the stereotypes coined by your enemies. People say that most Tajiks simply accuse people of nonsense, without proof. And here you are, assuming Nick is pathetic in a lame attempt to defame him because his views aren't in alignment with yours. For the sake of whatever God you believe in, refrain from false-accusations. It's against Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

i did not deny that. I brought the issue of homosexuality in Pashtun literature because one accused Tajiks beeing gay or gayms belong to north, only to north.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because some lunatic said all Tajiks are crooks, does not mean you have to make up lies about Pashtuns in order to feel good. A sign of an educated, and civilized man is to not stoop down to someones level.

But Afghans history began outside Afghanistan in modern Pakistan. Even Ahmad Shah Abdali´s era to the time of Dost Muhammad can not be counted as Afghanistan. Afghanistan exists in it´s current border because of UK and Russia and it´s history started with Abdurahman Khan. To the same era we can say that the propaganda that Afghanistan is a Pashtun state was starting from that time when Pashtun nationalists rised.

We are going in circles once again. Let me make this crystal clear for you. You questioned the history and influence of Pashtuns in modern day Afghanistan, and I gave you a bunch of ways to make you realize that you live and breath Pashto. I don't understand why your going thousands of years back. What I said was ever since Afghanistan's inception into modern day politics, it has been ruled and controlled by Pashtuns. Tajiks refer to us as 'Big brothers'. That, like I previously said, doesn't mean the country is only for Pashtuns. It means that you have to recognize our role. One thing I have noticed, which I find extremely disappointing is you selectively quote me. First you propagated a lie as to how a Pashtun in Pakistan can't be an Afghan, but when I clearly debunked that argument, you offered it a cold-shoulder and began to open an unrelated can of worms.

But reality differ from novels and fantasies. We see it everyday. Dari is here and there, Dari culture is shown here and there, education in Dari is here and there and Dari books are provided to provinces where Pashtuns are 100% dominant. The claim Pashtuns are the majority of Afghanistan is based on the basic of Pashtunization of Afghanistan during Nader Shah Musahiban who called the state in the public as a Pashtun state. But non-Pashtusn proved him and his children many times wrong. On the basic of culture, language, war, and many more. There are no majorities in Afghanistan.

Nearly ever source in the world proves that there are more Pashtuns than Uzbeks, more Pashtuns then Hazaras, and more Pashtuns than Tajiks. That my friend is a fact. We don't even have to get into ethnic composition. I don't understand why you are taking this route. Your arguments make no sense my friend. You have completely backed off from what you had initially said, and now you are just debating for the sake of it. I don't wish to discuss politics with you my friend. We have hundreds of educated Pashtuns who already have taken that role. I made my stance ultra-clear about the questions you are posing. Please re-read my posts.

I did saluted for them in my post. Just read it again brothr Jan

Thank you brother. :-)

A country founded by foreigners by drawing it´s borders, installing their own puppets, deviding many people to two or three fractions and more. Ahmad Shah Abdali was not the founder of Afghanistan.

Ahmad Shah Baba is the founder of modern day Afghanistan. He was the first unite the majority of the Pashtun tribes.

He just created a fundament of a future Afghanistan.

That does not make sense. Either way, you need to pay attention to your circular arguments.

You mean Afghan identity in the sense of Pashtun identity? Actually, I adoptet through my father´s language and culture a non-Pashtun identity. The term Afghan self has lost it´s historical relationship in the last 45 years from Pashtun to all non-Pashtuns and Pashtuns only for the people who live within Afghanistan.

Once again, Afghan is an ethnic identity, and a national identity. Nothing is lost, you are just telling your ears what it wants to hear.

Are you actually aware that loya jirga and all those other words are not native words? Loya Jirga comes (including the word loya self) from the altaiic languages and means greater tent. It was adoptet by Pashtuns from Turks.

Once again, you are denying the influence of Pashto. Whether you like it or not, or whether you care or not, today the word Loya is used by Pashtuns, and when someone hears that word it screams Pashto and Pashtuns. You are using it in parliaments because of Pashtun influence. That was my point. Let's not get into linguistics, cause if that's case then Dari is pretty much the child of Arabic these days. You might as well tell people you understand Arabic because 50 percent of Dari is Arabic. But I don't wish to discuss this with you. I'm not sure if you noticed, but nearly every claim you have made has not been backed up. I can honestly tell all PF'ers that not all Tajiks are anti-Pashtun. I know some very good Tajiks, and they speak both Pashto and Dari, and they never question the role of Pashtuns, or their culture, or their history in Afghanistan.

I never deny that. I always support the dual-language system in Afghanistan. That´s alsoa reason why i am here. I want to deep my Pashtu experiences.

And we welcome you here with open arms. :-)

I support your claim 100%. There are criminal elements among ANA but on the other hands the Taliban self are not innocent. They massacred civilians because of their belief or ethnicities. What these people do is nothing else than taking revange, Badal, that also exists in Pashtunwali. So a fair process. I am just against attacking innocent people. And in addition, why is ANA guilty when 80% of civilian deaths are caused by Taliban?

80percent of civilian deaths are caused by Taliban? I'll pass. I don't even want to discuss that.

With all due respect, the rest of your post was not worth responding too. You are once again hiding from history, and facts. I, in all honesty, don't want to repeat myself over and over again. Please read my previous with a sip of chai when you get a chance.

Thank you for this deep and interesting discussion dear brother.

The pleasure was all mine.

The purpose of a discussion is learning, it's not necessarily about proving someone wrong. Just keep that in mind, and don't be shy to admit that you made some outrageously absurd claims. If you really want to aim for Afghan unity, you need to read some books and educate yourself about the country's largest ethnic group, and the worlds largest tribe - the Pashtuns. For that, you have a great resource - the Kitabtoon.

Tajiks, Uzbeks, Punjabis, Sindhis are all our brothers. But if any of the aforementioned works against my people, not a single Pashtun will hesitate to repeat history. Tsk, Tsk, Isfahan.