pakistan handing over osama's wives.

[Toramana]

You seem confused to me.

Why are you so anti Pakistani?
And also Anti Afghan?
Anti Arab?


Technically speaking, you are pakistani.

Correct me if I am wrong but you believe that "real" pashtuns live in the Peshawar Valley?

You praise the British for building up Peshawar when they ruled it.

You despise Islam and think of it as an Arab imperialistic ideology used to rule others.

And your praise for western progress murmurs in your heart and heard loud and clear.

So really it seems that your wish is finally coming true. The west in time will soon invade Pakistan full scale. And rule over Peshawar once more. Then you will see it return to the same way it was under the British Raj.
And there is some realism to this aspiration of yours.
As it is quite clear to you that Pashtuns in Pakistan are more indian-like than Pashtuns in Afghanistan are Iranian/Tajik-like.

All this indicates to me that outwardly you are indian, inwardly you are western. You capture the historical struggle of a people from 100 years ago, and internalize that problem of two distinct cultures - british and india- that emerges and you wish to break free from both into something new - yet old. The Old Gandaharian? The new Pashtun Ultranationalism where for the first time in history all pashtuns will unite against all the rest. This new pashtun society will be totally divorced from the Arab/Islamic aspirations that much of pashtun society today is transfixed on - and enacted by the Taliban. Maybe you will even invent a new script for pashto so as to not leave any trace of Islam or arab influence on your new society. Then I suppose you would have pashtoons not practice even Islam anymore. They ought to then emulate the western life style, as have the Indians. Naturally, you don't expect them to be living in the stone age forever?

I am sorry.
I just don't see that happening.
It is not even realistic anymore.
You have about the same sort of aspirations as hitler.
At times I don't even know what you want...

so really ...what do you want?

I am immensely proud as all Pashtuns should be of the elegant civilization my forefathers i.e., the great kushan (Yeuchi) once built and that extended from Taxila to Kandahar of which the Bamian Budha was one of the symbols. Furthermore, if you look at the map, you will find that Motamar Durand made no distinction with regad to Ghandharian and non-Ghandarian background of the trbies when drawing the Durand Line. Consequently, you find the same tribe to both sides of the Durand Line e.g., look at Shinwaris who are partly in Ningarhar and partly in Khyber (even in Dir)---

Same is true of Momands, Mashwanis (scattered around Dir-Kunar border---some are even in Haripur Hazara), Safis (you can find them in Kunar as well as Momand Agency), Toris (Parachinar-Kurram, Paktiya), Mangals (Kurram-Paktiya), Wazirs(Wazistan-Paktiya), Urbuz (Waziristan-Paktiya), Zazais (Kurram-Parachinar-Paktiya), Zadran (Kurram-Parachinar-Paktiya), Kakar (spread from Herat to Quetta---some are even in Peshawar and Charssada), Achakzi, Niazis (Laghman to Kohat, Mardan, Bannu, Mianwali), Wardags (who are in Wardak-Maidan Shahar but also in Dir/Swat some families of whom are my own relatives ---many influential families are in Chach-Hazara and Attok on Punjab side of the river Indus), Lodhis (my relatives who are in Mardan, Lundkwar, Dargai, and I have heard also in Kabul), even the Yousafzai, my own people and the most easternly Pashtuns, have also some clans to the west of the Durand Line.


Besides, we speak the same language (100% mutually intelligible both written and spoken), and uphold the same set of values called Pashtunwali. That is why at the time of Afghan War, millions of Pashtuns of Afghanistan along with Persian speaking Afghan citizens moved from Afghanistan to KPK and Quetta (followed by 2 millions pure-Persian speaking inhabitants of Kabul in 1992 at the time of the fall of Najib govt)...That is because they felt home there.

Many of them have and will return to Afghanistan but I am sure few hundred thousands will stay back and settle permanently in Pukhtunkhwa because that is their home.

So you can see the degree of commonality and homogeneity in us despite the DL.


Now I can understand as an outsider i.e., the Parso-Arabic background, you might not know this detail (or should I assume what you say is intentional?)...No Pashtun of either Afghanistan or KPK or Quetta has a clue of this Gandharian and non-Gandharian sub-categorization and you and SE all of a sudden have come out with this great revelation i.e., Gandhrian and non-Gandharian subclassification exists defined by the Durand Line----bravo....bravo again---

[Toramana]

But anyhow, if the Gandharan (or Indian or South-Asian) and non-Gandharan (Pasro-Tajak) distinction exists and really is important, then I am no one to insist on a more tight relationship between the two categories of Pashtuns.

Rest about religion, I think I didn't say any thing about religion.

[ScimitarXEdge]

He is an Pan-Arabist, he moans all day long about Imperialism but on the other hand he supports Arab Imperialism upon the Pashtun people by posting fabricated disinformation about the Pashtun people being related to Arabs.

He is desparate to prove his point and by doing so he labels me with false names which quite funny because who cares lol!

He lives in America comfortably with his Yemani family protected by the American government, and he has the nerve to call the Sons of the Hewad as Paki Nationalists just because they strongly support the Pashtun identity and refuse to Arabify it and end up like these identity complex Punjabis who still dance in the name of Baghdad lol!

Ay khudaya maseed; I can tell you're clearly very frustrated

Pakistani UltraNationalist; Don't worry, I understand the psychological dissonance and tactical damage you're going through right now so what you keep insisting on is simply Orientalist scapegoat is all you have as a counter defense, but it's all lies and fabrications. So your argument itself has no merit

What irony you claim others are trying to Arabify and live under protection of the American Government to pretend that you're standing up for Pashtun identity; when it's always you who's running to service American soldiers as if you're a Vietnamese Prostitute begging for asylum. it's always you who are telling Pashtuns that they need to emulate Western societies women to get brainwashed to behave like harlots by Imperialist Brainwashing that Westerners are a superior, more advanced race than Pashtuns and hence Pashtuns must follow them. All while living in the land of the British Raj, who created Pakistan.

you can save this phony act of trying to save Pashtun identity and resisting, because you're clearly more than willing to surrender to Europeans thinking you can somehow fool Pashtuns by telling them it's in our best strategic interests LOL. The evidence shows that in reality it's you who's Neo-Imperialism of Europe and it's you who have Inferiority identity Complex of wanting to emulate anything European. Just as Pakistan's Government does; hence you're a Pakistani UltranNationalist

It takes more than pomp and empty claims of being a "Son of Hewad" to prove how Pashtun you are. It's your actions that show otherwise.

you should realize this is a circular battle because every accusation you've levied here I have already debunked.

If I was anything close to a Pan Arabist or Arab Nationalist then I would never admit Pan Arabists like Saddam were stooges of Western Powers. Yet I have said that even within this thread. And if you're trying to align Pan-Islam with Pan-Arabism; then your argument is false once again, An Afghan named Jamaluddin Afghani inspired modern Pan-Islamic Movement.

You can only cry wolf so many times before people realize it's a deception.

[Toramana]

You seem confused to me.

Why are you so anti Pakistani?
And also Anti Afghan?
Anti Arab?


Technically speaking, you are pakistani.

Politically and adminstratively yes but not ethincally and culturally ---just like you being an Afghan politically and administratively but not ethnically or culturally....

Correct me if I am wrong but you believe that "real" pashtuns live in the Peshawar Valley?

Never said that...I am above that and define nation based on common culture, history, territory, language, etc. I don't make any such distinction.

You praise the British for building up Peshawar when they ruled it.

I praise them for certain things e.g., institution-building, infra-structure development and land-development (e.g., canal system that converted Peshawar Valley from barren into fertile land or Jabban/Dargai hydroelectric power generation facility or road on Malakand pass with that tunnel, etc.)---You may argue they did it for their own imperial interests but ultimately, we were and are the benificiary...So nobility and gentleman-ness demands I mention that in good words...They had the power and could have kept us as we were....

You despise Islam and think of it as an Arab imperialistic ideology used to rule others.

I have an issue with political Islam used for pursuing national agenda of one group or another but as a religion or way of life as in our tradtional society I have no problem with it...

And your praise for western progress murmurs in your heart and heard loud and clear.

I don't praise it in entirety but there are some aspects of it that are really praise worthy and we can learn from them...If that were not the case you would be in Mecca instead of this Western country...

So really it seems that your wish is finally coming true. The west in time will soon invade Pakistan full scale. And rule over Peshawar once more. Then you will see it return to the same way it was under the British Raj.
And there is some realism to this aspiration of yours.

I didn't wish anything of that sort...You are making assumptions....

As it is quite clear to you that Pashtuns in Pakistan are more indian-like than Pashtuns in Afghanistan are Iranian/Tajik-like.

I will tell you something---In Peshawar, we had a lot of Parsiwanan/Tajaks like you till recently---There was a family living in my neighbourhood, whom I would interacted with occasionally---One day I was talking with one of the elders and asked him where he is from Afghanistan ? And he said they are Pashtuns from Nangarhar although he was a Dari/Persian speaker---Out of courtesy, I said nothing although I knew he was making it up --After sometimes, I found the reason for his disguise because he told me Pashtuns are respected here...

On another occasion, I was passing a public park and found a young boy(from Khost) arguing with two men, who were apologetic...Later, I found the two men were sitting in the public opposite the house of that boy---The boy, who probably was new in Peshawar, considered it an affront to the privacy of his house ( women-folk) ... The two men really apologised to him...If it were a non-Pashtun speaker, he might not had any qualm about the two men sitting there---and the two men might have considered it an impingement on their right to use the public park the boy telling them to go away...

All these things were an indication of the fact that the two set of men understood Pashtun cultural protocols....I didn't need to say this but you are making up artificial things....

All this indicates to me that outwardly you are indian, inwardly you are western. You capture the historical struggle of a people from 100 years ago, and internalize that problem of two distinct cultures - british and india- that emerges and you wish to break free from both into something new - yet old. The Old Gandaharian?

Could you explain it please? And what about this outwardly Indian and inwardly Westerner thing? Is it some philosophical point you want to convey ...I think you çannot articulate it well.

The new Pashtun Ultranationalism where for the first time in history all pashtuns will unite against all the rest.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. I want Pashtuns to unite for themselves not against others as my many posts indicate. However, I can understand that your Tajak/Parso-Arabic insecurity in the consciousness or subconsciousness which sees the unity of a perceptably rival group with political wariness might be associating that meaning with what I say...

This new pashtun society will be totally divorced from the Arab/Islamic aspirations that much of pashtun society today is transfixed on - and enacted by the Taliban. Maybe you will even invent a new script for pashto so as to not leave any trace of Islam or arab influence on your new society. Then I suppose you would have pashtoons not practice even Islam anymore. They ought to then emulate the western life style, as have the Indians. Naturally, you don't expect them to be living in the stone age forever?

Tell me one thing, as a person of Perso-Arabic background, why are not you concerned with your own community ---I really have seen many Tajak/Farsiwanan in this Western country so ludicrously Westerners (in a very unnatural and gaudy way) that it makes you vomiting...Why don't focus on them...?

I am sorry.
I just don't see that happening.
It is not even realistic anymore.
You have about the same sort of aspirations as hitler.
At times I don't even know what you want...

so really ...what do you want?[/quote]

That again is over-interpretation and misplaced assumptions/misconceptions...Again I wonder why does it irk you when someone talks of Pashtun identity or transformation!

[ScimitarXEdge]

I am immensely proud as all Pashtuns should be of the elegant civilization my forefathers i.e., the great kushan (Yeuchi) once built and that extended from Taxila to Kandahar of which the Bamian Budha was one of the symbols. Furthermore, if you look at the map, you will find that Motamar Durand made no distinction with regad to Ghandharian and non-Ghandarian background of the trbies when drawing the Durand Line. Consequently, you find the same tribe to both sides of the Durand Line e.g., look at Shinwaris who are partly in Ningarhar and partly in Khyber (even in Dir)---

Why should ALL Pashtuns be proud of a civilization which the majority of them do not stem from? Yes I admit some Pashtuns are in fact descended from Kushan or Yuezhi. But the Bamiyan Buddha has nothing to do with Pashtuns at all. Pashtuns are a tribal people the Gandharans and Kushans were not. They were more like contemporary Tajiks. More than likely Gandharans and Kushans are more connected to Tajiks than to Pashtuns even though there are some Pashtuns who may have descended from them too.

As for the fact you find certain tribes across two sides of the border; this doesn't mean they're necessarily identical. Remember that when Pashtun tribes moved East from Qandahar, many clans ventured forth, became rulers of the region and by nature of power structure inherited many other groups into their tribal structure.

Besides, we speak the same language (100% mutually intelligible both written and spoken), and uphold the same set of values called Pashtunwali. That is why at the time of Afghan War, millions of Pashtuns of Afghanistan along with Persian speaking Afghan citizens moved from Afghanistan to KPK and Quetta (followed by 2 millions pure-Persian speaking inhabitants of Kabul in 1992 at the time of the fall of Najib govt)...That is because they felt home there.

Many of them have and will return to Afghanistan but I am sure few hundred thousands will stay back and settle permanently in Pukhtunkhwa because that is their home.

That's not necessarily true; many Qandaharis claim, that they don't understand Peshawari Pashto. So you can't say it's 100% mutually intelligible. I would say mutual intelligibility is maybe 85% the Further you get from Qandahar. Now Quetta to Qandahar is pretty much like 99% Mutually Intelligible. However even SOME Linguistic experts say Pashto is really a family of languages rather than a language all its own.

So you can see the degree of commonality and homogeneity in us despite the DL.

You contradict yourself if you believe that Pashto culture is ever changing and in flux; something you have said in other threads, this idea of Homogeneity would not be likely. Albeit I do agree Pashtunwali is pretty consistent. But that demonstrates that Pashtuns for the most part have had a static society for the better part of the last 1000 years. Something you don't advocate.

Now I can understand as an outsider i.e., the Parso-Arabic background, you might not know this detail (or should I assume what you say is intentional?)...No Pashtun of either Afghanistan or KPK or Quetta has a clue of this Gandharian and non-Gandharian sub-categorization and you and SE all of a sudden have come out with this great revelation i.e., Gandhrian and non-Gandharian subclassification exists defined by the Durand Line----bravo....bravo again---

The only reason why I mention Gandahara is because YOU have mentioned it and you claim it's "our" ancestral heritage. Which is total nonsense

if Gandhara was our ancestral heritage; where did we get Pashto? Pashto is NOT related to Prakrit, at least not directly. It would be absurd that Pashto derived from Prakrit. Pashto is more intelligible with Kurdish than to Sanskrit or Prakrit. Granted that Pashtuns from your areas probably were at one time Gandharans, but Pashtuns from my areas were not. We're sada Pakhtano

The problem I have with your claims is you attempt to forge this Mythology of Pashtuns having these legacies and Empires which are Anthropologically inconsistent. As social organization becomes more complex ( Not complex does NOT mean MORE advanced ) people move away from Tribal Associations; Gandharans were clearly not tribal as stated. So it would make no sense for them to adopt tribal associations, especially being Buddhist.

[ScimitarXEdge]

By the way your ideology and political approah is more aligned with Pakistan foremost its right-of-center establishment and intensely nationalist religious-extremist movements and political parties. Your Siraj Haqqani, Mullah Omar (the caveman), Gulbuddin Hikmatyar, etc. are right now enjoying the security provided to them by their Pakistani mentors to attack Afghanistan, destroy schools, behead Pashtun elders in FATA, etc.

The same way Pakistanis call Afghanistan to be an occupied land similarly you call UN-mandated force in Afghanistan to be occupation force. You are waging the same propaganda as carried out by Pakistan to advance its strategic-depth agenda through Taleban proxies.

That proves who is more loyal to Pakistan politically and ideologically.

That's an illogical statement; just because two people who have have the same view on a certain subject doesn't mean they are allgned for the same Agenda.

Many Afghans in Afghanistan oppose America/UN and see it as an occupation and are against Pakistan

Malalai Joya for example, this is what she said

Afghan feminist: ?Kill team? photos reveal truth of occupation | Green Left Weekly

The disgusting and heartbreaking photos published in March by the media are finally bringing the grisly truth about the war in Afghanistan to a wider public.

All the PR about this war being about democracy and human rights melts into thin air with these pictures of US soldiers posing with the dead and mutilated bodies of innocent Afghan civilians.

I must report that Afghans do not believe this be a story of a few rogue soldiers. We that is part and parcel of the entire military occupation.

The photos are new, but the murder of innocents is not. Such crimes against civilians have sparked many protests in Afghanistan and have sharply raised anti-US sentiments among ordinary Afghans.

It would be totally illogical to tell us now that When U.S. soldiers kill Afghans on purpose and deliberately murder them; that it's not an occupation.

Even when Talibs suicide bomb it's not deliberately motivated to kill civilians. Just collaborators within Government or Local institutions.

are you going to tell us now these Afghans are doing so because they're aligned with Pakistan?

Just because Hitler was a vegetarian and Buddha was a vegetarian, doesn't make Buddha a Nazi nor Hitler a Buddha. Come on can you think LOGICALLY for once instead of using emotionalized propaganda Toramana. I'd like to believe you're an intelligent person but you make it very hard sometimes.