Pakistan discussion

[Max]

Well the thing is BLS i dont wanna get into a debate over wether there was a rational for it or not.

Lets look at the reality right now, Israel is a reality even if we dont accept it..they bombed the sh**t out of all arab nations and all they can do is not accept it as a nation. Same thing for Russia its power might have diminished but its still running the show..As for Pakistan i think considering how many problems we're facing we're doing fine, any other state would have collapsed by now

but back to the rationale point, lets say that there wasnt a rationale for Pakistan's creation, but it did get created and we do have a country. So now what ? we do have to defend it since thats all we got, thats all we can identify with..and to be quite frank i think most of our people despite the hardships would still prefer Pakistan over Afghanistan..I know the meshuds and other tribes they are against Pakistan, but they are like 0.1% of the total population yara.

whats easier for us pashtuns ? start a civil war ? do we have enough numbers ? i dont think so..i know i wouldnt be in support of a civil war because there is no need

Some rights need to be given, but i think its something we will have to do on our own..We will have to educate our own people, we will have to go out of the villages and connect to the country..we will have to become more mainstream only then can we assert our influence over policy making

[Max]

Max for me your opinion matters more. I didn't ask you what Race you belong and I don't want to know it either. Because in the cyberworld one can be an Irani/Jewish/Pashtun/Hindu or American. If it moves likes like a Duck, talks like a duck it must be a Duck. You are Pakistani stick to that don't tell me you are Saraki/Sarhadi/hindko/Sindhi/Buhari/Afghan/Baloch/Punjabi/Kasmiri/Mahajur/Hazara.

Cause you can't speak for all Pashtuns.

There is a saying amongst Pakistanis themselves and we Afghans are aware of this as well in Pakistan there are 4 types of Pathans
Lost Pathans
True Pathans
Wannabe Pathans
Fake Pathans usually with the last name "Khan"

lol i'll ask the canadian government to write my tribe credentials on my next driver's license

anyways yara, Pakistan is a country of 160 million people, out of those only 28% are pashtun out of those 50% dont even live in pakhtunkhwa

in the end you got that 0.1% mehsud minority thats wavin its banner and killing innocents .. all for what ? if anything that has made everybody hate this ethnic sh**t even more

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Well the thing is BLS i dont wanna get into a debate over wether there was a rational for it or not.

Lets look at the reality right now, Israel is a reality even if we dont accept it..they bombed the sh**t out of all arab nations and all they can do is not accept it as a nation. Same thing for Russia its power might have diminished but its still running the show..As for Pakistan i think considering how many problems we're facing we're doing fine, any other state would have collapsed by now

but back to the rationale point, lets say that there wasnt a rationale for Pakistan's creation, but it did get created and we do have a country. So now what ? we do have to defend it since thats all we got, thats all we can identify with..and to be quite frank i think most of our people despite the hardships would still prefer Pakistan over Afghanistan..I know the meshuds and other tribes they are against Pakistan, but they are like 0.1% of the total population yara.

whats easier for us pashtuns ? start a civil war ? do we have enough numbers ? i dont think so..i know i wouldnt be in support of a civil war because there is no need

Some rights need to be given, but i think its something we will have to do on our own..We will have to educate our own people, we will have to go out of the villages and connect to the country..we will have to become more mainstream only then can we assert our influence over policy making

You are creating strawman arguments, not to mention you are jumping from one premise to another. That is not logical. First of all, if a country supposedly built on false rationale, then how can it concievably survive? Maseeds and those other tribes as you call them are not 0.1 % of the population, far from it.

We are not starting a civil war, and you are not getting the point. What I am saying is that Pakistan's policy towards Pashtun areas is not in our interests. What they percieved as strategic depth is strategic death for us. So why would I or any sane pashtun support that? What you are saying is that, we should carry along as the state apparatus ruins us....is that rational? And telling others that civil war is the natural option, well that is not true. There are things called political struggle, and if the army continues what they are doing, then believe me, our areas are ruined enough...how much more damage would a civil war do, when our areas are being bombed and have been bombed by f-16s?

[Max]

BLS yar i understand where your coming from..and im half stoned so my bad if the logic is a bit jumpy

But mayn look at it this way, political struggle's gotta come from someone who is capable of representing our interests and doesnt come of as some separatist dude.

We have had pashtun presidents didnt we ? army chiefs and what not..they didnt do much..so what political struggle..are we under represented ? na are we discriminated for powerful positions in governance ? na

So there has to be something else, and that something else like you mentioned in other thread is education yara..we need to bring people towards the new age..we're still stuck with our guns and havent been able to embrace the changing times as a race..with the oppurtunities we were given we could have become a political force.

as for Pakistan's strategic depth in afghanistan..its war bro, as much as i hate it if we dont fight we die..Afghanistan is responsible to an extent for its own troubles, they had oppurtunities and time and they let it all go. When you become weak then others can take over..law of the jungle

EDIT: For that mehsud tribe rep % i might be wrong cuz i am quoting someone i know, can you correct me on that ?

and the F16s mara what other choices we got

[BLS_1919v2.0]

BLS yar i understand where your coming from..and im half stoned so my bad if the logic is a bit jumpy

But mayn look at it this way, political struggle's gotta come from someone who is capable of representing our interests and doesnt come of as some separatist dude.

We have had pashtun presidents didnt we ? army chiefs and what not..they didnt do much..so what political struggle..are we under represented ? na are we discriminated for powerful positions in governance ? na

So there has to be something else, and that something else like you mentioned in other thread is education yara..we need to bring people towards the new age..we're still stuck with our guns and havent been able to embrace the changing times as a race..with the oppurtunities we were given we could have become a political force.

as for Pakistan's strategic depth in afghanistan..its war bro, as much as i hate it if we dont fight we die..Afghanistan is responsible to an extent for its own troubles, they had oppurtunities and time and they let it all go. When you become weak then others can take over..law of the jungle

EDIT: For that mehsud tribe rep % i might be wrong cuz i am quoting someone i know, can you correct me on that ?

and the F16s mara what other choices we got

Loll again you are setting up straw man arguments. Pakistan's policy was good for the people east of the indus, but for Pashtuns it was destructive. If it is the law of the jungle then let anyone who ruins Pashtun areas burn (Pakistan inlcuded). By your logic, we Pashtuns should turn against Pak army and pak state apparatus right? I mean it is working against us. Afghanistan's stability is in the complete interest of Pashtunkhwa. If panjab or sindh go into turmoil, Pashtuns may suffer some spillover, however if Afghanistan goes through any political problems, we Pashtuns in Pashtunkhwa suffer immediately and immensely. Don't even think for a second that Pashtuns (whether east or west of the durand line) can survive if Afghanistan is burning. That is like saying, a person can win a 100 meter dash with one leg amputated. It is highly unlikely and will end up being a spectacle.

We had two presidents who were Pashtuns- Ayub Khan and Ghulam Ishaq Khan. This again is flawed logic, because you assume that if two people made it to presidency they will: a) be loyal to their own pashtuns, b) will think or implement policies different than a person of another ethnic group and c) are moving up the ranks due to their loyalty as pashtuns and not due to some other factor. Basically, people who make it in the army of pakistan, pashtuns included, rarely have a love for Pashtuns or Pashtunkhwa. It is very rare, on the other hand, they will happily go against Pashtuns for their new love to the state. In terms of representation lolzz, peera Pashtuns are politically divided in Pakistan into 4 regions: FATA, khyber pashtunkhwa, Northern Balochistan, mianwali-attock. In fact you can divide further, where in Khyber pashtunkhwa we are split into PATA, FR, settled districts. So actually we are politically sidelined. These things were set up by the british before them and are a major hurdle for Pashtuns betterment and even for the future stability of our moranae watan Afghanistan.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

And Nick, please stop further dividing Pashtuns. The Pashtuns criteria has been their islam and pakhto. This fake pathan or whatever pathan is nonsense. Either you are a drun pakhtun or a daoss...doesn't matter if you are from Afghanistan or Pakhtunkhwa. Both sides have their fair share of embarassments who have doen wodnerfully in shaming our Afghan name and pashto. Manana

[Max]

lol this is too much of a heavy debate.

BLS i think its cool that you wanna stand up for something, but my advice and you dont have to even read it bro..but i think if we allign our interests with our country we will benefit more.

And i think i dont need to tell you what the ground reality is in Pakistan because im pretty sure your more aware of it than i am..And reality is that if a referendum was held again, a huge minority would vote for Pakistan still

[BLS_1919v2.0]

lol this is too much of a heavy debate.

BLS i think its cool that you wanna stand up for something, but my advice and you dont have to even read it bro..but i think if we allign our interests with our country we will benefit more.

And i think i dont need to tell you what the ground reality is in Pakistan because im pretty sure your more aware of it than i am..And reality is that if a referendum was held again, a huge minority would vote for Pakistan still

Loll we alligned those interests right through the 80s and 90s, tell me how are those lashkars and taliban faring in Pashtunkhwa? Are they really helping pashtuns?

Peera maybe you are right, but let me take that further, and put forward two things:
- Will Pakistan allow the baloch to have that referendum? Do you think Pakistan has a chance baloch will vote for Pakistan (without heavy rigging)?
- Prior to the Yugoslav civil war, more than half, rather an overwhelming majority of bosniaks supported Yugoslavia, identified with it (much more strongly than pashtuns or anyone else does with pakistan). What happened to them? When push came to shove, no one got so badly mistreated as they did.

[Max]

Loll we alligned those interests right through the 80s and 90s, tell me how are those lashkars and taliban faring in Pashtunkhwa? Are they really helping pashtuns?

Peera maybe you are right, but let me take that further, and put forward two things:
- Will Pakistan allow the baloch to have that referendum? Do you think Pakistan has a chance baloch will vote for Pakistan (without heavy rigging)?
- Prior to the Yugoslav civil war, more than half, rather an overwhelming majority of bosniaks supported Yugoslavia, identified with it (much more strongly than pashtuns or anyone else does with pakistan). What happened to them? When push came to shove, no one got so badly mistreated as they did.

true, but we got played by both sides..In Afghanistan they couldnt handle their internal affairs so they invited Russia to beat up Pashtuns and "set those tribals" straight..pakistan seeing our brotherhood connection with them armed us and sent us in..And i think today whats happening in Pakistan is our own undoing

But looking back, what other choices did Pakistan have ? India Russia and the Northerners were upto their necks killing off our people..The only thing we could do was help our pashtun brothers fight.

Anyways wrora i think we have hijacked his thread lol, lets rag on the Jews :D

[Michin Khel]

@Nick
A member said in this thread that nick is a great scholar of PF so my expectations were high from you in proving that pakistan=israel. I think you failed to integrat properly your knoweledge of history with your logics.
But at the end you raised an important question, what is the reason of creation of pakistan? To debate on this question separately, i am opening a separate thread.

[afghan]

This is from wikipedia

• In 1947, media reports the first contact between Pakistan and Israel were made in early days of Pakistan's independence, when Israeli Prime minister David Ben-Gurion sent a secret message by phone to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah to recognize Israel. But Jinnah did not give any particular response to Israel.
• In 1973, the sixteen of Pakistan Air Force's fighter pilots volunteered in Yom Kippur War. During the conflict, PAF did not lose a single pilot whereas PAF pilots shot down 3 Israeli aircraft. Nur Khan, who was the Wing Commander received praised from Israeli President Ezer Weizman who wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".
• In the 1980's, during the Pakistan-Afghan War, Pakistani-based intelligence ISI and Israeli intelligence Mossad along with the CIA, ran a covert operation in Afghanistan to remove the Soviets from the country. Israel and Pakistan also had high-level dealings through their powerful intelligence agencies which included military dealings. [3]. Israel also supported Pakistan by providing Soviet weapons to Pakistan during 1980s which were seized after invading Lebanon.

• In 1981 After Israel's attack on Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactors in the 1980's, a similar plan to attack Pakistan's Kahuta Research facility by using Indian airfields was foiled, when the Pakistan Air Force got alerted beforehand, and took preventative measures.
• In 1993, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto, along with her then-Director-General of Military Operations, Pervez Musharraf, , had intensified the ISI’s liaison with Mossad in 1993, and she too began to cultivate the American Jewish lobby. Bhutto is said to have had a secret meeting in New York with a senior Israeli emissary, who flew to the U.S. during her visit to Washington, DC in 1995.[4].
• In 1996, Pakistan's Intelligence Agency, FIA, started a secret war against islamic Extremist in Pakistan under the leadership of Rehman Malik. According to sources, FIA contacted Israeli intelligence agency Mossad to help and send its officers to investigate the Islamic extremist in Pakistan. This action dismayed many religious factors in Pakistan as well as ISI.
• In 1998, Pakistani delegation to the United Nations met with Israeli UN delegation, shortly after Pakistan conducted its nuclear tests. Pakistan assured Israel that it will never transfer nuclear technology to Iran or any other state.
• In 2001, Pakistan via ISI, passed intelligence about the Gulf States and the nuclear ambitions of Iran and Libya, whose programs Pakistani scientists had helped to build[4].
• In 2002, Pakistani tennis player Aisam-ul-Haque teamed up with Amir Hadad of Israel during Wimbledon and US Open tournaments in 2002.
• In 2003, President Pervez Musharraf raised the issue of possible diplomatic relations with Israel,[5]
• In 2005 the foreign ministers of the two countries held talks for the first time.[6] However, following the meeting Musharraf said Pakistan will not recognise the state of Israel until an independent Palestinian state is established,[7] - although, according to Musharraf, Pakistan will eventually recognize Israel.[8]

you must be deep asleep or jinnah alreay knew that tha state israel(1948) will be created, israel and pakistan had similar trategic advantes a to western countties. Afghans have defeated the mghty british army several times, it needed a permanent base in south asia and one in the middle-east.
since when israel and paaakies had war? i am sure Israel is much stronger millitarily. i believe Israel and pakiies have been allied more than enemies.

[Michin Khel]

I know some of you may know history but many don't know and often forgets to the reason why Pakistan was created. You think about it and let me know. Israel=Pakistan in the sense of their maneuver not in the sense of People's nation.


Before you respond against me answer this question first
WHY WAS THIS PAK-ISTAN, a land clean from Hindus was created?





To be continued.....

You yourself has answered your question, "a land clean of hindus". To make it more refine, you can say that purpose of pak-istan creation was independent country for indian muslims out of fear of hindu dominance where they can practice their faith freely. Hindu-muslim conflicts or more precisely anti-muslim riots make the weak muslims of india to dream of a country where they are not killed in masses for eating cow meat. It was clear to Muslims that in United india they will be overwhelmed by magority hindus according to demoratic system and their rights will always ignored. A fear that in-numerable hindus will trample them, provoke idea of pakistan in hindi muslims.

[Marwat]

Nick after you answer everyones questions I also have to ask you questions.


please further elaborate on your points thoug.



thank you dear Nick.

[Max]

I dont get it lol, the guy just wrote down his own opinion which is pretty much as biased as anyone is gonna get

I dont really care if he or anyone else hates Pakistan and wants to put us = Israel..fact of the matter is Pakistan is enough to defend itself against Israel, and we are an islamic state..enough said

[Max]

But he hasnt stated any facts ? He is only presenting his view of the distorted history..None of his parallels work

Read this and it should tell you how close Israel and Pakistan came to war

After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israelis planned a similar attack on Pakistan’s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. Using satellite pictures and intelligence information, Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practised mock attacks.

According to ‘The Asian Age’, journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark stated in their book ‘Deception: Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy’, that Israeli Air Force was to launch an air attack on Kahuta in mid-1980s from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat (India). The book claims that “in March 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed off (on) the Israeli-led operation bringing India, Pakistan and Israel to within a hair’s breadth of a nuclear conflagration”.

Another report claims that Israel also planned an air strike directly out of Israel. After midway and midair refueling, Israeli warplanes planned to shoot down a commercial airline’s flight over Indian Ocean that flew into Islamabad early morning, fly in a tight formation to appear as one large aircraft on radar screens preventing detection, use the drowned airliner’s call sign to enter Islamabad’s air space, knock out Kahuta and fly out to Jammu to refuel and exit.

According to reliable reports in mid-1980s this mission was actually launched one night. But the Israelis were in for a big surprise. They discovered that Pakistan Air Force had already sounded an alert and had taken to the skies in anticipation of this attack. The mission had to be hurriedly aborted.

Pakistan reminded the Israelis that Pakistan was no Iraq and that PAF was no Iraqi Air Force. Pakistan is reported to have conveyed that an attack on Kahuta would force Pakistan to lay waste to Dimona, Israel’s nuclear reactor in the Negev Desert. India was also warned that Islamabad would attack Trombay if Kahuta facilities were hit.