Pakistan discussion

[karachipashtun]

Salam Nick,

I saw you stating Pakistan = Israel.


In this thread, I would like you to explain how you came to that conclusion. I would appreciate your thoughts.



I respect your valuable opinion, I am just very curious.

[Zahia]

I'm also very curious about this Pakistan = Israel theory. . .

[Zahia]

Well, if he is comparing Pakistan's interference in Afghanistan to Israel's interference in Lebanon, he would be very correct... I am anxious to hear his opinion.

[Max]

hmm i know for sure pakistanis are famous for shooting down Israeli fighters in the war, they didnt lose a single one of their own..even the Israeli president commended the Pakistanis for showing bravery even though they were enemies

[Max]

This is from wikipedia

• In 1947, media reports the first contact between Pakistan and Israel were made in early days of Pakistan's independence, when Israeli Prime minister David Ben-Gurion sent a secret message by phone to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah to recognize Israel. But Jinnah did not give any particular response to Israel.
• In 1973, the sixteen of Pakistan Air Force's fighter pilots volunteered in Yom Kippur War. During the conflict, PAF did not lose a single pilot whereas PAF pilots shot down 3 Israeli aircraft. Nur Khan, who was the Wing Commander received praised from Israeli President Ezer Weizman who wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".
• In the 1980's, during the Pakistan-Afghan War, Pakistani-based intelligence ISI and Israeli intelligence Mossad along with the CIA, ran a covert operation in Afghanistan to remove the Soviets from the country. Israel and Pakistan also had high-level dealings through their powerful intelligence agencies which included military dealings. [3]. Israel also supported Pakistan by providing Soviet weapons to Pakistan during 1980s which were seized after invading Lebanon.

• In 1981 After Israel's attack on Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactors in the 1980's, a similar plan to attack Pakistan's Kahuta Research facility by using Indian airfields was foiled, when the Pakistan Air Force got alerted beforehand, and took preventative measures.
• In 1993, former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto, along with her then-Director-General of Military Operations, Pervez Musharraf, , had intensified the ISI’s liaison with Mossad in 1993, and she too began to cultivate the American Jewish lobby. Bhutto is said to have had a secret meeting in New York with a senior Israeli emissary, who flew to the U.S. during her visit to Washington, DC in 1995.[4].
• In 1996, Pakistan's Intelligence Agency, FIA, started a secret war against islamic Extremist in Pakistan under the leadership of Rehman Malik. According to sources, FIA contacted Israeli intelligence agency Mossad to help and send its officers to investigate the Islamic extremist in Pakistan. This action dismayed many religious factors in Pakistan as well as ISI.
• In 1998, Pakistani delegation to the United Nations met with Israeli UN delegation, shortly after Pakistan conducted its nuclear tests. Pakistan assured Israel that it will never transfer nuclear technology to Iran or any other state.
• In 2001, Pakistan via ISI, passed intelligence about the Gulf States and the nuclear ambitions of Iran and Libya, whose programs Pakistani scientists had helped to build[4].
• In 2002, Pakistani tennis player Aisam-ul-Haque teamed up with Amir Hadad of Israel during Wimbledon and US Open tournaments in 2002.
• In 2003, President Pervez Musharraf raised the issue of possible diplomatic relations with Israel,[5]
• In 2005 the foreign ministers of the two countries held talks for the first time.[6] However, following the meeting Musharraf said Pakistan will not recognise the state of Israel until an independent Palestinian state is established,[7] - although, according to Musharraf, Pakistan will eventually recognize Israel.[8]

[Max]

Man its confusing, here Pakistani Air Force is shooting down the Israeli Planes

1967 Arab-Israeli 'Six-Day' War

After the 1965 India-Pakistan War, some Arab countries requested Pakistan to depute some its pilots to their air forces. Consequently, a small batch of PAF pilots were deputed to the air forces of Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Egypt. When the Arab-Israeli 'Six-Day' War broke out in 1967, these PAF pilots on deputation were requested by their host countries to participate in defensive combat operations.

On 5 June 1967, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam, on deputation to the joint command of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) and the Iraqi Air Force, was flying a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Jordan in an RJAF Hawker Hunter from Mafrak Air Base in Jordan. He was accompanied by 3 other RJAF Hunters. Their formation was informed by the ground controller of the presence of 6 Israeli Air Force IDF/AF Super Mysteres B-2s, which had crossed into Jordanian airspace. The 4 RJAF Hunters engaged the 6 IDF/AF Super Mysteres and Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam shot down an IDF/AF Super Mystere using the Hunter's 30 mm guns. With this kill, PAF pilots drew first blood against the IDF/AF. In this engagement, the Jordanians suffered no losses.

Two days later, in the morning of 7 June 1967, Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam. this time on deputation to the Iraqi Air Force (IrAF) was flying a defensive CAP in an IrAF Hawker Hunter (S. No. 702) over western Iraq from H3 Air Base in a formation of 4 IrAF Hunters. Ground controllers notified their formation of a formation of 8 Israeli aircraft - 4 IDF/AF Mirage IIICJs and IDF/AF 4 Vatour IIN Bombers - that had crossed into Iraqi airspace. The IrAF formation immediately engaged the Israeli aircraft and in the ensuing dogfight Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam shot down one IDF/AF Mirage IIICJ (Serial No. 6660) and one IDF/AF Vatour IIN Bomber with his Hunter's 30 mm guns. The M.IIICJ pilot was Gideon Dror, IAF, who ejected and was taken POW, while Vatour IIN bomber was the IDF/AF Vatour flight leader. In this engagement, the Iraqi Air Force suffered no loss.

RJAF and IrAF were flying under a joint command. Flt. Lt. S. Azam became the only pilot from the Arab side to have shot down 3 IDF/IAF aircraft within 72 hours and also the only pilot to have shot down 3 different aircraft types of the IDF/IAF. He was, subsequently, decorated by Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan.

1973 Arab-Israeli 'Ramadhan/Yom Kippur' War

During the war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to go to the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived, Egypt had already been pushed into a ceasefire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel.

On 23 October 1973, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif on deputation to Egyptian Air Force (EAF) was flying a EAF MiG-21 in a defensive combat air patrol (CAP) over Egypt when he was vectored towards an intruding Israeli Air Force (IDF/AF) F-4 Phantom. In the ensuing dogfight, Flt. Lt. M. Hatif shot down the Israeli Phantom.

Eight (8) PAF pilots started flying out of Syrian Airbases; they formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr Airbase. The Pakistani pilots flew Syrian MiG-21 aircraft conducting CAP missions for the Syrians.

On 26 April 1974, PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi on deputation to No. 67 Squadron, Syrian Air Force (SAF) was flying a SAF MiG-21FL Fishbed (Serial No. 1863) out of Dumayr Air Base, Syria in a two-ship formation with a fellow PAF pilot and the Flight Leader, Sqn. Ldr. Arif Manzoor. The Ground Controller, also a PAF officer, Sqn. Ldr. Salim Metla, vectored the two PAF pilots to a formation of 2 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJs and 2 F-4 Phantoms that had intruded into Syrian airspace over the Golan Heights. In the engagement that took place at 1532 hours, Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Mirage IIICJ using his MiG-21's R(K)-13 Air-to-Air Missile. The pilot of the downed Israeli Mirage was Capt. M. Lutz of No. 5 Air Wing, who ejected. The remaining Israeli fighters aborted the mission. The 2 IAF Mirage IIICJs were from Hatzor AFB and the 2 IAF F-4 Phantoms were from No. 1 Air Wing, Ramat David AFB, Israel.

Flt. Lt. A. Sattar Alvi became the first Pakistani pilot, during the Yom Kippur War, to shoot down an Israeli Mirage in air combat.He was honored by the Syrian government. Other aerial encounters involved Israeli F-4 Phantoms; Pakistan Air Force did not lose a single pilot or aircraft during this war. The Pakistani pilots stayed on in Syria until 1976, training Syrian pilots in the art of air warfare.

[karachipashtun]

Pakistan ka matlab kiya? La illaha illal la!

[tor_khan]

ّIn 1981, General Zia remarked:

“Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.”

Puts a rather interesting perspective on things.

[Max]

ّIn 1981, General Zia remarked:

“Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.”

Puts a rather interesting perspective on things.

das true actually, but that will be true for any ideological state no

states have to be formed on something, why not ideologies..atleast they are stronger than treaties

[Nick]

Salam Nick,

I saw you stating Pakistan = Israel.


In this thread, I would like you to explain how you came to that conclusion. I would appreciate your thoughts.



I respect your valuable opinion, I am just very curious.

Yes I understand Pakistan calls itself Islamic republic, but I think they would rather not, if they notice they don't have to.



I know the history behind the creation of Pakistan. Many people in the field thinks that process of making a nation such as Pakistan was due to long suffering and protests which ended with theory that this "Pakistan was formed because Hindu-Muslims of British Raj demanded so".

Lets take this Pakistan back to history, that how it was transformed into a State.
Long before time in early 1920s, no-one would of even thought that there would be a nation in Pakistan that would have mainly Muslim population. Yes dear friend we are talking nation building by British within 30 years, not there was no machine in making such process but rather redevelop and use the ideology which was present in the WWI in making sure both their companies (British Own Assets in South Asia), and their influence remains in this part of the world.

Before WWI British never thought that they will one day loss India. India was like the treasure Box, in the war against Afghans, British new they could lunch another attack against Afghans, but had theoretical reasons that they may loss what they already have, is more then enough, the only problem was Russia. In conclusion general Napoleon Cavagnari wrote that they knew the wealth of England is protected from Russians, even if they didn’t support the Pathans in the case of Russian invasion. British had full confidence that Afghans were not easily to be conquered. However in the main time a treaty with Amir of Afghanistan would reassure British that no such plots would be made against British Raj, In this agreement for a period of time a promise of friendship was made and that British will not attack his kingdom and that Durant line will be set as Buffer Zone. This was assigned by which Afghans lost ½ of Afghan land and ¼ of its total population was to be separated from its motherland named “Afghanistan”. This would be called Northern Frontier also known as NWFP but later from NWFP Pakistan created FATA. NWFP (Sarhad) was to be printed in books as 4th province of Pakistan after declaration of Ayub Khan’s victory in Chitral.




One thing British really didn’t pay attention to was this newly added region entering into their “Empire”. British forces continually battled to control this 2 million people but wasn’t able to, so what they did was to play this divide and rule game which turned out to be successful, because what British was concern was making sure no such danger comes from NW. In 1909 some thousands of men was gathered in Peshawar, British had to surrender and post was emptied within a week British recaptured Peshawar. A city which was not as important as it is today, the city of Peshawar was ending tip of Afghan land, but nevertheless majority were still Pashtuns. The losing of Peshawar for a week was perhaps a warning that these Afghan tribesmen are up to something. British still ignored their voices, in the fallowing years a party from descendents of Afghans was formed, a shocking bomb which gave a solid bone in backing nationalism, and rights of freedom. This was to be known as Khilafat movement.

The history of Khilafat movement is not really thought in the Pakistani high schools, but its history was not as old to be forgotten. Often considered to be called as The Ali Brothers, was a movement by two brothers of Afghan origin, Mulana Shukat Ali Khan and Mulana Mohammad Ali Khan, born to wealthy business family from NWFP. Their main cause was the freedom from British. After trip to Afghanistan, Turkey and Europe, Khilafat movement was strong as ever, after their arrival in India, their support and sorrow was now to be shared amongst millions of Muslims from India this was the marking point of All India Muslim League formed in 1907. The Khilafat movement gave hindu-Muslims a little hope after few skirmishes and clashes that took place between Khilafat supporters from NWF and British. Thousands of bodies to be burned and laid down, the city of Quetta was out of control and British had to retaliate. In the 2 years process a peace was made between British Raj and Khilafat, in which peace was stored. Here we enter a new phase of Indian history that will change the map of India, his name Mohammad Ali Jinnah born as Ithna Ansari believer (Shia school was member of Indian national congress, changed hands and entered All India Muslim League in 1913) In the main time a plan was to be made because British had to reassert its control over India, complication in Europe, and Indian National Congress, the Khilafat movement, was the worse nightmare. Finally after thousands of its members pushed and bullied by the British Officers, members of Khilafat movement were forced to join All India Muslim league. Finally in 1924 British announced Khilafat was no longer recognized movement, but rather a terrorist militancy group from NWFP, and in 1934 a new league (Muslim League) was to be formed, which resulted from disagreements in All Parties Conference of December 1928, in the recommendation by British which ended by stating that All Muslim India League and Indian National Congress cannot be handed power, unless a new nation was to be formed for the Muslim. A year after Jinnah’s formation of his League, British announced their plan openly under Government of India Act 1935 in which two semiautonomous states was to be formed and both had to join New India Federation.

In 1939 WWII begins and British under intense pressure was not able to control India’s militancy which was now growing amongst Hindus as well, British openly blamed Afghanistan for its support to this militancy and because of close ties of Afghan king with Japan and Germany a team of 15,000 was send to “maintain control of the border”. In making sure India is not lost by the hands of Brits the rise of Religious conflict was the only option left. Therefore Few Temples in Fire would due the job, after intense 4 months civil conflict in March, 23, 1940 Mohammad Ali Jinnah openly expressed his support for the Brits recommendation of two state solution to the people of India. It was then the Pakistan movement was born, initially British thought this would not be supported due to mixture of hindu and muslims in the demographics of India, this was to be a hard task, because half of today’s Pakistan’s population was Hindu and Sikhs and other half Muslim. In the progress to save their Company the approval was made in 1946, leaving behind the question of Kashmir between Pakistan and India, and the question of Sarhad between Pakistan and formal enemy and initials anti-Brits, Afghanistan.


Understanding to How it was created, check history of Israel, how they raised to power and how from 25% jews now claims up to 70% of Israel as Jewish land.

Understanding Pakistan’s formation, and their claim of “United Muslim Nation” is very important. One thing to remind our selves the region today we know as Pakistan was created to be a “Muslim” nation while in 1945 this same region it was half non-Muslim.
Be a judge and tell me in the past 10 years what did Pakistan do, that justify itself to be called an Islamic nation.

Like Israelis they kill and bombs the regions that internationally recognized as part of Pakistani map. Like Israelis they conquer and bogus the people for peace and instability. Like Israelis in order to claim they make-up fake stats and documents. Like Israelis they publish false news regarding Muslim, dissing mualana’s and religious respected leaders is a good example, and making false movie regarding “Terrorism” etc etc.

Above all my heart drops, when I see a face of Pashtun in the face dirty-mud hit by a Pak*i bullet.


I know some of you may know history but many don't know and often forgets to the reason why Pakistan was created. You think about it and let me know. Israel=Pakistan in the sense of their maneuver not in the sense of People's nation.


Before you respond against me answer this question first
WHY WAS THIS PAK-ISTAN, a land clean from Hindus was created?





To be continued.....

[Max]

^ eh dude no need to get personal ma family is pashtun and we love pakistan to death and so do all ma pashtun friends..All this history BS is for old geezers, we keep hanging onto it and we'll always be stuck in the history

Moving on

And as far as Israel and Pakistan go, they only similarity i think they are both hated by lots of countries.

Atleast US has Israel's back, we only got ourselves ..so we did and will do whatever we have to do to protect our interests.

I dunno about your rant on all the hoop-lah..but pakistan and israel are enemies...we fought for our country.

[Max]

my friend jus sent me this

Thats our pilot standing next to the Jordanian King..the frikin King

[Nick]

^ eh dude no need to get personal ma family is pashtun and we love pakistan to death and so do all ma pashtun friends..All this history BS is for old geezers, we keep hanging onto it and we'll always be stuck in the history

Moving on

And as far as Israel and Pakistan go, they only similarity i think they are both hated by lots of countries.

Atleast US has Israel's back, we only got ourselves ..so we did and will do whatever we have to do to protect our interests.

I dunno about your rant on all the hoop-lah..but pakistan and israel are enemies...we fought for our country.

Max for me your opinion matters more. I didn't ask you what Race you belong and I don't want to know it either. Because in the cyberworld one can be an Irani/Jewish/Pashtun/Hindu or American. If it moves likes like a Duck, talks like a duck it must be a Duck. You are Pakistani stick to that don't tell me you are Saraki/Sarhadi/hindko/Sindhi/Buhari/Afghan/Baloch/Punjabi/Kasmiri/Mahajur/Hazara.

Cause you can't speak for all Pashtuns.

There is a saying amongst Pakistanis themselves and we Afghans are aware of this as well in Pakistan there are 4 types of Pathans
Lost Pathans
True Pathans
Wannabe Pathans
Fake Pathans usually with the last name "Khan"

[BLS_1919v2.0]

das true actually, but that will be true for any ideological state no

states have to be formed on something, why not ideologies..atleast they are stronger than treaties

Actually, the point isn't about whether a state is built on an ideology or treaty, but rather if the criteria is rational. I don't think the ideology of Pakistan is rational at all, not even politically or religiously. Sure, it made sense for Britain to create it (strategic reasons), but other than that, no real rationale.

Also, how many ideological states are their really? Israel, Pakistan and former soviet union, and among them one has already failed, the other is nearly collapsing, and Israel has major strategic issues. So there is no empirical proof to say one is stronger than the other. In fact I can name you very strong non-ideological nations: Japan, US, Germany, Sweden, etc.

[tor_khan]

das true actually, but that will be true for any ideological state no

states have to be formed on something, why not ideologies..atleast they are stronger than treaties

Periodically, we come back to Pakistan's reason for being and so perhaps it's less the rights or wrongs of the ideology, but its more the comparison between the two, in that Zia himself likened Pakistan to Israel.