Farhat Taj versus ISI mouthpieces and Akhwani fanatics

[Bengal_Tiger]

I'm impressed...it's almost like you read my mind!

You hit the nail on the head.

Anyway one day I am going to start a thread on this, nothing Bengal-specific but the issue of Muslim unity. However for the time being let's focus on Pashtunkhwa-related discussion as otherwise the thread will get messy going here and there.

[ScimitarXEdge]

very well no problem; but the way I only wanted to highlight what caused the problems that led to the 1971 war, I don't favor any ethnic group on another. I believe we need reconcilation than never ending feuds that individuals like Toramana want to keep alive for the Imperial divide and rule scheme.

anyway carry on.

[Bengal_Tiger]

I'm basically out of this thread....I still believe - as secular Pashtun nationalists I can cite - that Farhat Taj Andersen does not represent Pashtuns.

However you and Barakzai would put it in stronger terms.

Aside from some single individual, I think Tormana wants a more liberal secular society akin to that of the west and that is what is more important to him than whether Farhat is this or that. All I can say is Islam is an indispensable part of the Pakhtoon identity and lifestyle.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I'm basically out of this thread....I still believe - as secular Pashtun nationalists I can cite - that Farhat Taj Andersen does not represent Pashtuns.

However you and Barakzai would put it in stronger terms.

Aside from some single individual, I think Tormana wants a more liberal secular society akin to that of the west and that is what is more important to him than whether Farhat is this or that. All I can say is Islam is an indispensable part of the Pakhtoon identity and lifestyle.

that's exactly what he wants, and he's trying to accomplish it by creating all these false distortions in attempt to separate people from Islam. He's even said it himself ..and I quote

"I just want what's in America for people in Khyber Pashtunkhwah"

now if that doesn't reveal his desire to spread their hegemony, what does?

[Bengal_Tiger]

I read that as him saying he wants (what he views) as a successful, secular, democratic capitalist society whom half the world would want to live in to exist in Pakhtunkhwa, i.e. for Pashtuns to enjoy the benefits and comforts of modernity.

I think he is sincere in that his own way he wants what he thinks is the best for Pashtuns, rather than US hegemony. I could imagine him going Chomsky-esque if asked about US foreign policies.

Anyway it's rude to talk about someone in a conversation in the third person, so let Tormana speak for himself :P

[Bengal_Tiger]

Just to add that is not the way I view the US though I respect its positive sides and am not going to vilify it wholesale.

I come from a much more Islamic angle believing in the importance of having Islamic values present.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I read that as him saying he wants (what he views) as a successful, secular, democratic capitalist society whom half the world would want to live in to exist in Pakhtunkhwa, i.e. for Pashtuns to enjoy the benefits and comforts of modernity.

I think he is sincere in that his own way he wants what he thinks is the best for Pashtuns, rather than US hegemony. I could imagine him going Chomsky-esque if asked about US foreign policies.

Anyway it's rude to talk about someone in a conversation in the third person, so let Tormana speak for himself :P

The problem is, the two things are inseparable; the reason being is that the reason most of the world is in the calamity it's currently in is because such a hegemony institutes conditions in which others must imitate their modus operandi to function. You're right in a way, he's really a blind patsy unaware that he's being used like a condom.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Just to add that is not the way I view the US though I respect its positive sides and am not going to vilify it wholesale.

I come from a much more Islamic angle believing in the importance of having Islamic values present.

I grew up in the States I know how it works inside and out. That's why my knowledge about this society is invaluable.

[Toramana]

SE has this Pan-Islamist obcession which probably stems from his Arab connection and the Pan-Arab sentiments of resentment against the West-US for its support to Isreal and Arab dictators --and as a consequence of that he probably wants a Pan-Islamist alliance spearheaded by Arabs (and if not Arabs e.g. Mullah Omar, primarily focussed on Arab agenda).

What he says or wishes is a utopia. He is living in fantasy land not able to accept that even Arabs cannot unite under one banner because the wealthy Arab shiekdoms (even the Wahabi Mullahs with all the Islam) are not ready to share their oil wealth with the poor Arabs e.g Morocans, Yiminis, etc. what to talk of whether they would be ready to give one or two oil wills to poor Pashtuns or Bangalis. I fear in such a super state of Pan-Islam others would be reduced to the serfdom of Arabs and the rest of the Muslim world would become a vast Harem (concubine house) for the wealthy Arabs who would take non-Arab women as concubines by decree from Al-Azhar, Mecca, etc.

Rest, the vast majority of Pashtuns at least to the east of Durand Line don't want to be ruled by Mullahs for their obscuranist views, sectarianism, recedivism into violence, authoritarianist tendencies, and disregard for the rights of women, minorities, progress, etc. I approve of that and stand with them. Democracy and Islam like that in Bangla Desh, Malaysia, etc. are acceptable to me.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Ah so it's possible for the Afpak diaspora to be agents of the Pakistani ISI abroad, but this is reasonable.

but it's paranoia for you to be an Agent of the American CIA to spread disinformation and exploit and cultivation divisions to conquest for their hegemony. Even though CIA is a highly technological and sophisticated entity which the ISI depends on for logistics.

Of course it's obvious when you use CIA disinformation in line with their geopolitical designs. Denying CIA-AlQaeda-ISI nexus to portray ISI as something other than a proxy. That you're peddling their agenda.

Let's demonstrate some of the fallacies you peddle, Pan Arabists were usually CIA/U.S. backed, which was actually exposed by sources you used actually demonstrated. The "Wahhabi Sheikhdoms" and Secularist Pan Arabists are all collaborators with the CIA, which only proves the legitimacy of Pan Islamic Movemennt.

Also the idea of Pan Islamic movement originated in Afghanistan with Sayyid Jamaluddin Afghani, who imported it to the Middle East not the other way around; this was long before Israel was even a state.

Israel is an imperially manufactured state much like, Afghanistan, Pakistan and most other Middle Eastern and asian States of today. The Pan Islamic Movement was against Imperial designs of any sort not merely Israel. Israel has only gotten headlines because of their policy of forced attrition.

you are a bad propaganda minister Toramana, no wonder you;re only a patsy for the CIA. I dont believe you really know what you're doing; I think you've just been gullibly manipulated until the CIA discard you as a used condom.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

SE has this Pan-Islamist obcession which probably stems from his Arab connection and the Pan-Arab sentiments of resentment against the West-US for its support to Isreal and Arab dictators --and as a consequence of that he probably wants a Pan-Islamist alliance spearheaded by Arabs (and if not Arabs e.g. Mullah Omar, primarily focussed on Arab agenda).

What he says or wishes is a utopia. He is living in fantasy land not able to accept that even Arabs cannot unite under one banner because the wealthy Arab shiekdoms (even the Wahabi Mullahs with all the Islam) are not ready to share their oil wealth with the poor Arabs e.g Morocans, Yiminis, etc. what to talk of whether they would be ready to give one or two oil wills to poor Pashtuns or Bangalis. I fear in such a super state of Pan-Islam others would be reduced to the serfdom of Arabs and the rest of the Muslim world would become a vast Harem (concubine house) for the wealthy Arabs who would take non-Arab women as concubines by decree from Al-Azhar, Mecca, etc.

Rest, the vast majority of Pashtuns at least to the east of Durand Line don't want to be ruled by Mullahs for their obscuranist views, sectarianism, recedivism into violence, authoritarianist tendencies, and disregard for the rights of women, minorities, progress, etc. I approve of that and stand with them. Democracy and Islam like that in Bangla Desh, Malaysia, etc. are acceptable to me.

hmmm yet the legends say that it is Mullah Omar that has married Bin Ladin's daughter... sort of puts your theory in the intellectual pokey does it not?

[Toramana]

SE, your problem is, you have the audacity to call the rabidly fundamentalist regime of Saudi Arabia with the ultra-orthodox Wahabi ideological clique as the underpinning and Arab nationalists as secularists in the same breath. That coupled with the paranoiac obcession with Pan-Islam and the destruction of global ecological system renders you someone with the ability to analyze, to comprehend, to infer from, and look into objectively not very sharply developed yet...Probably, there is a need for you to take some additional courses in logic and analytical-objective thinking...

But anyhow, let us talk about this Arab-Isreal or Arab-West conflict first. I wish if there could be an impersonation of Israel, I would've given it two slaps in the face...And if there were a characterization of Arabs, I would've given it three kicks in the back for being 300 millions in numbers spread over two continents with petro-wealth yet failing to unite against their own dictators and foes. Believe me, I am a very fair minded person.

I have a suggestion. Why don't you launch the campaign for Pan-Isalmist sper-state from Yimin as a pilot project initially to unite Yimin with the rest of the Shiekhdoms and then expand it to the rest of the Arabdom ...and beyond that to the Muslim world (take care Turk Mullahs will throw you in the Black Sea if you suggested union with Arabs and Persians, in the Persian Gulf...Also, be warned that Punjabis have the newly evolved nuclear identity consciousness and have their own Pan-Islamist agenda probably more practical than yours to coalesce Pakistan and at least half of Afghanistan into one to be ruled from Rawalpindi) instead of bringing the unity top-down. I think that would be more feasible.Is this a sensible suggestion?

If not give me the Pan-Islamist plan...the roadmap as where to start from and how to proceed from that point.

Here we are trying to infuse some sense of unity in Pashtuns but are failing again and again....

[ScimitarXEdge]

All pretensious commentary aside; let's look at things from the real-world historical lense.

Egypt, staunchly secular were in constant strategic cooperation with Saudi Arabia, vis'a vis the CIA/U.S. Political machinations, the goal was to sideline any Islamic Movement both in Saudi Arabia. Notice, both Saudi Arabia and Egypt had both suppressed Islamic Groups. The use of religion in Saudi Arabia is at best show-glass. The Saudi Monarchal System is not apart of Islam. They are secular leaders with a religious cover, much like you're an Imperialist Stooge with a Pashtun cover; Both you and the Saudis do the same thing; adopt the camouflage of the mainstream Society, in Saudis case it's Islam, in your case it's Pashtun identity; you use this camouflage to exploit the sensitivities and sentiments of the mainstream. Najibullah also did this when he was working directly under Kremlins orders. The reasons the Saudis do this is so to discredit genuine religious revolutionaries who want to dismantle all the Imperially created Political Borders and break the supplying of resources to Imperialists. They want to mantain the power complex that has been established with Imperial support, and keep the masses at bay by posing as Islamic. You exploit Pashtun Nationalism, to gain power support for the Imperial Hegemony to reassert itself in the region when the British failed to do so culturally. But by using secularism, portraying Pashtuns as a contrary to Islamic Value and Organizational system; you portray yourself as centered on Pashtun identity and heritage while attempting to transplant Imperially created values, to help mentally colonize the Pashtuns, since without doing so; the British learned that Pashtuns will show resistance, you're there to cultivate pacification enough to help them become sedated and accepting of colonization.

Pakistan has no Pan Islamic notions; they're much like Saudi Arabia, they went under the camouflage of Islam to ratify their conglomeration; but really they're divided Imperially manufactured nation states, with a Secular Constitution, they're not even really fighting for Punjabi Nationalism, just like you're not really fighting for Pashtun Nationalism; what People like you and The Political Elite of Pakistan are fighting for is Imperial Geopolitical design; You abide by this artificially created "tug of war" the British Raj instructed leaders of the ANP and Pakistani Govt. to engage in to keep the masses distracted and cultivate a society based on ethnic rivalry and feuding. This same fact is true in Pak-Bangladesh as well.

What this demonstrates is that The main enemy is the Imperial Nexus (former colonial powers who have redefined themselves as Capitalist Nation States); that their hegemony and their influence in global geopolitics is the root of current conditions.

By "Arab" I assume you mean the Sheikhdoms; and not the Yemenites. There's really no Arab-Israel or Arab-West conflict, ALL the wealthy Sheikhdoms you're worried about are allies with the West. The West supports the Sheikhdoms. So whatever conflict you see between them is purely the West's smokescreen. Notice America spends billions to protect the Saudi Royals. the Kuwaiti Royals and the UAE Sheikhs; none have been killed in drone attacks; yet tons of village Pashtuns have been. And yet you support it, despite this clear fact evident. What does it tell you? If the Saudis were really so rabidly fundamentalists, they wouldn't have McDonalds in Mecca. The Dichotomy you speak of; 300 Million Arabs vs. 6 Million Israelis is an illusory one; Israel is essentially a proxy; what people are up against is not Israel, but an entire Global Network which maintains the imperial status quo of divide and rule. It's not numbers but consciousness which create this condition. The same condition that's in Pashtunkhwah. Everything else is a red herring. Israel wouldnt exist if it weren't for the British, French and Americans; neither would Pakistan, India and even Afghanistan as we currently know it. If you notice I never do Israel bantering, because I know your tactics; divert everyone with intermediary issues and keep them from focusing on the bigger picture.

The reason Afghanistan is the focus is because the Imperial Nexus directly militarily within Afghanistan; and their economy is military based thereby it would be crucial to encourage as much fragmentation of it as possible. Yemen and others can come later. If there was more direct military involvement in Yemen, we'd encourage the same thing there.

The way to do things is follow Sayyid Jamaluddin Al-Afghanis method. He has the right comprehensive plan.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I guess Toramana's lack of response to my post means he concedes to my argument.

[ScimitarXEdge]

nearly 24hrs later and Toramana has still not responded back to my last post

Have I served a death blow to his cognitive stability?