The question of an independent Khorasan state —Musa Khan Jalalzai

[Nick]

well done Nick; this is some interesting and meritable material; but you have to take this into context as well. He's not describing a Kingdom or Society; in fact I Stressed this same point earlier when I mentioned that Babur(or perhaps some other Mughal) also used the word Afghanistan, but his usage of the term Afghanistan was descriptive and not Political State Entity. Just like we used to refer to Nuristan as "Kafiristan" because they were infidels in that region for a long time, there was no Political State Entity like "The Kingdom of Kafiristan" . It's important to discern linguistic usages with formal political ones.

This is the same case for even Khurasaan which was once merely a reference to a general region, later became identified with an actual Political Entity

Well I have to agree with you on somethings and I am glad we have a grip of this, perhabs I can give more examples which did had kindoms inside Khorasan, such as Zabulistan, Sakistan, Kabulistan as well as Amirual zamans from different era like for example Amirual-Herat, ruled larger areas up to Kandahar as well as Amirual-Nimroz lived during Kapalai Chan, Amirual Ghazni (Lived before arrival of Samanids and governorship of Aliptigan), Amirual Ghur (Before Ghurids lived a kingdom half Islamic and half Kafiri as mentioned by Arabs and writers of Ghazniwads), Amirual Balkh, and many other examples of Amirates or spelled as Emirates that lived in the region of directional name called "Khorasan" a nicknamed remained with us until this day.

However I disagree with this part of your understanding
"This is the same case for even Khurasaan which was once merely a reference to a general region, later became identified with an actual Political Entity"
Yes today some claims it to be a political entity, they think it can happen LOL. It was never a political entity just as Afghanistan never was until Ahmad Shah's era. As according to you even Ahmad Shah did not call his kingsdom "Afghanistan" which is why I agreed because it was so far and huge I am glad he didn't. Again What do you mean by Political entity, was it same as Cyrus the guy who is father to be creating a consitition that many Empires later fallowed? I don't think so, many rulers came into Khorasan at the same time and fought to whom rules where. There was no such thing as unity inside Khorasan and nor a feeling of Nationhood. Yes the majority of its people were different from South Asia, and Pars and Arab world. Their difference with Persa, and India was Religion, their difference with Arabs with Race, and politics.

One thing my friend the Political entity which you are looking for would not be found in those times, now it can be found thanks to Dr.Tarzi's era. Moderniztioning of nation is deeply rooted into Politics was very much applicationo of European influnce in the late 20th century.

Afghanistan suffers even today, because the consitition has to adapt the American policy of what is good and bad for Afghanistan even if those laws hurt Islam and Afghan social code of laws and Order.

Many country would then fall under this umbrella, such as the Iranian consitition in 1909 almost mixed British and Russian influnce, which came abouts of modern Iran as we see today during Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907. In 1925 transformed due to American influnce, which won over Russian influnce. Where as Afghan political consitition is dated to be modernized since Abdur Rahman khan that fallowed European politics. This was all modernized by publication from Dr.Tarzai that is still running the current consitition and politics of Afghanistan ie Daud Khan, Taliban and modern Karzai.


Afghanistan is not the only Islamic country that has problem with European ways of Political rule democracy or Communism, if it doesn't go by Sheyria law its useless to the people. Examples of such mess had been witnessed in Egypt, Behran, Lybia, now Yaman, Iran, and Syria, etc etc. All of them rulers/presidents were originally helped to rule by the West Right? Now what is happening is that West wants to take advantages of these changes that are demanded by its people, a demand for change.

Just like it happened in Afghanistan during Khaliluallah Khalilis era and tribes such as Suri, Khalzi and Safi were main opposition and enemy of Barakzai rule specially their modernization efforts started by Amir Amanulalh Khan asking his wife to wear western cloths, which sparked the Afghan society and shocked the groups that later felt by Nader Shah. Later such revolution supported by Russians to remove current system, again failed within 12 years and fallowed by Russian invasion, ended with death of 5 million people, that is more than whole population of Province of British Columbia in Canada. The outcome was criminals and later Taliban and now Americans once again repeating the cycle of history.

[ComradePashtun]

What are you blabbing about? Pride and honour vanishes when you dont have enough money to buy one time meal. With empty stomach one would think of selling his daughters and send his sons to collect things from garbage or work on begging. Poor and starved people dont brag about pride, honour and ghairat when they they possesses none.
Instead of boasting non-sense ,Come back to your motherland and help your miserable people.

What blabbing? That is the problem mentally slaved like you who equate pride and honour with material: no wonder even U.S. officials have gone on board that a Pakistani would sell his mother and wife for money.

I am neither a begger nor am I collectig garbage, even if I was, poverty is no shame. We are talking about history. Unlike you who is a mere subject deprived of true pride to that extend that you don't even know what it is, deprived of your identity and self-determination, physically and mentally controlled - we are free within ourselves. That is pride, freedom and peace and continue to strive with that aim. How many millions in the world are condemend with poverty and hungry stomach in the wold and even in Pakistan?

My people feat for themseslves and they are remarkble at it. I am in the service of my people everywhere I am. I live and strive for my PROUD people. My Marwat the house ******, your are a pathetic individual.

[ComradePashtun]

All childish insults and perojatives aside; can you show me a single document from the time of Ahmad Shah Baba where he declares the name Afghanistan for his Dominion. I do know he mentions Pashtunkhwah, but he never calls it his authortive dominion. By the way I'm not sure what it has anything to do with being Desi

Last I checked, my dad is from Afghanistan, and Khidr is a Tajik from Afghanistan.


The history I'm reading is the "not based on ethnofascist ignorance and self delusion Vol. I"

Afghanistan has been a victim of imperialism, but the namesake and central governments have been in cahoots with Imperialism since not long after Ahmad Shah Baba had passed on.

Who did Shah Shuja al Mulk, the Shah of "Afghanistan" make a deal with for keeping Muslim lands, mainly inhabited by Pashtuns and other Muslims to be keep them under territorial control as long as he had the "official throne".

Here's a guess, One of them dance Bhangra, the other of them believes the sun never set on their empire.

Ahmed Shah Baba's rule was over domain under the Durrani Empire which he sought through conquest and diplomacy. So you are telling me Pakiland and India was also Khorasan? He has declared himself the king of Delhi too, does that mean anything?His origin was Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan which chronologically is known since 10th century for locality in which enthnie Afghans inhabited -right from Suleman range to eastern edges of today's KPK. As for sources read Modern Afghanistan by the very Tajik author Amin Saikal in 20 something pages, and another one of a favorite source would Persian Geographic Enclopedia, which I can find out for you. That is Persian sources for you to be content with. Afghanistan came in to existance as autonomous political entity from Ahmed Shah Baba's time. Afghanistan only incorporated regions within it's territory. There is no ambiguity there.

As for Shah Shuja, your understanding of Afghanistan's struggle against imperialism and freedom is as hapless as that British protege and puppet who was trashed by Afghans to where you are from. This only signifies and reaffirms what I have said, not otherwise or to the contrary. Shah Shuja like your Ranjist Singh leader or Qaid e Azam is not revered by us Afghans but recognised and despised as British agent whom Afghans never allowed to be ruled by.

[ComradePashtun]

Your dad from "Afghanistan". What an irony. You still sound too Pakistani.

[randolph85]

we are thinking of states/empires of the past with a 20th/21st century perspective, while the reality of the time was much different. there were no fixed borders, no national names for states besides invoking past legacies. ahmad shah baba may of called himself the king of khorasan, like mahmoud hotaki called himself the shah of iran, and like modern day jordan calls itself "the hashemite kingdom." what is important is that the political and military legacy of ahmad shah baba lead to afghanistan as we know it today.

on the issue of khorasan, it is highly unrealistic. its nationalist tajiks who are the only people behind such slogans, and they are the weakest group in central asia that has a state outside afghanistan. uzbeks obviously would not be on board with a khorasan as they have their on unique nationalism, turkmen would have no stake in such a state, and hazaras would just be a minority in another state, they are not involved in such nationalism. whether tajik nationalists want to admit it or not, tajiks in afghanistan are a lot more similar to pashtuns in afghanistan than to iranian persians or tajikistani tajiks.

[Michin Khel]

What blabbing? That is the problem mentally slaved like you who equate pride and honour with material: no wonder even U.S. officials have gone on board that a Pakistani would sell his mother and wife for money.

I am neither a begger nor am I collectig garbage, even if I was, poverty is no shame. We are talking about history. Unlike you who is a mere subject deprived of true pride to that extend that you don't even know what it is, deprived of your identity and self-determination, physically and mentally controlled - we are free within ourselves. That is pride, freedom and peace and continue to strive with that aim. How many millions in the world are condemend with poverty and hungry stomach in the wold and even in Pakistan?

My people feat for themseslves and they are remarkble at it. I am in the service of my people everywhere I am. I live and strive for my PROUD people. My Marwat the house ******, your are a pathetic individual.

Poverty is indeed no shame but it has nothing to do with heavy words like honour , ghairat etc, the empty stomach becomes brain of poor. If you are a proud man because your of history of afghans then there is no place for you in present, just go back to past through time machine and live there. Because the present of afghans is that they are selling kabaarr, and their kids are collecting garbage. I admit afghans are most traditional of pashtuns but it is the same reason that they are doomed. Afghans/pashtuns knew nothing but fighting with sword....i am not that much proud of my ancestors.
Afghans are flopped people in modern days, they do not know how to do business, their kabuli hotels can not extend to 3 star or 5 star hotel (how can be they successful when they fight with their customers instead of serving them).
You are calling us slave-minded and pakified but infact we are the ones who have realized that solely martial qualities will lead us to nowhere in this era. We are getting education and we are trying hard in business. We are fullfilling our martial spirit by joining pakistan army, the real power in pakistan.

[Nick]

we are thinking of states/empires of the past with a 20th/21st century perspective, while the reality of the time was much different. there were no fixed borders, no national names for states besides invoking past legacies. ahmad shah baba may of called himself the king of khorasan, like mahmoud hotaki called himself the shah of iran, and like modern day jordan calls itself "the hashemite kingdom." what is important is that the political and military legacy of ahmad shah baba lead to afghanistan as we know it today.

on the issue of khorasan, it is highly unrealistic. its nationalist tajiks who are the only people behind such slogans, and they are the weakest group in central asia that has a state outside afghanistan. uzbeks obviously would not be on board with a khorasan as they have their on unique nationalism, turkmen would have no stake in such a state, and hazaras would just be a minority in another state, they are not involved in such nationalism. whether tajik nationalists want to admit it or not, tajiks in afghanistan are a lot more similar to pashtuns in afghanistan than to iranian persians or tajikistani tajiks.

on the issue of khorasan, it is highly unrealistic. its nationalist tajiks who are the only people behind such slogans, and they are the weakest group in central asia that has a state outside afghanistan. uzbeks obviously would not be on board with a khorasan as they have their on unique nationalism, turkmen would have no stake in such a state, and hazaras would just be a minority in another state, they are not involved in such nationalism.

Maybe unrealistic, actually very awkward and naive as far as I see it from historical point of view to me makes no sense, if we have Khorasan a directional name from proso-Arabic ie Farsi/Dari word, we might well have other Regional unknown simplified Earily Arabic given names.
But I am however on the opposite side, cause I see only those suffered are the true backers of such lies and nonsense, I have witnessed personally cause remember Taliban were very harse to Ismailis/Gazalbash/Hazaras as well as some Dostamis etc, despite they don't know much like Tajikam they would label the map of Khorasan which makes one puke and make false claims over some God knows 90% Turkic Persian speaking of Tajikistan as its central symbol.
From my personal experence I see that most Farsiwans use the word Khorasan for educational and reference purposes, there are some who view that think Khorasan was just too big to true, and Islam and current Afghanistan is most important, this would apply to majority of Farsiwan mentality. Nevertheless there are those Farsiwans (Tajiks) who are lost like Iranians consider Islam as an Arabic religion rejects the word Khorasan and claims the word "Aryana", as well as those who are extremist muslims rejects all together Khorasan, Aryana, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, India but only one Khalafah.

[randolph85]

thats a good point. the idea of a neo khorasan thought up by these silly people is really a smokescreen for an anti islamic state based on ethnic grounds and masked as some inviting entity for the sake of the future minorities. all i know about this khorasani nationalism is from what i read online to be honest, as no one in afghanistan will dare utter a word about it. if pashtunistan is not even close to being realized by now, a greater khorasan is lifetimes away for these people.

it is simply an unrealistic claim on a centuries old legacy. its about as realistic as hazaras demanding a return to their mongol khanate. i am sure there are state department officials who have an even bigger hard on over the possibility of dividing even more muslim lands than these nationalist khorasanis.

[randolph85]

Poverty is indeed no shame but it has nothing to do with heavy words like honour , ghairat etc, the empty stomach becomes brain of poor. If you are a proud man because your of history of afghans then there is no place for you in present, just go back to past through time machine and live there. Because the present of afghans is that they are selling kabaarr, and their kids are collecting garbage. I admit afghans are most traditional of pashtuns but it is the same reason that they are doomed. Afghans/pashtuns knew nothing but fighting with sword....i am not that much proud of my ancestors.
Afghans are flopped people in modern days, they do not know how to do business, their kabuli hotels can not extend to 3 star or 5 star hotel (how can be they successful when they fight with their customers instead of serving them).
You are calling us slave-minded and pakified but infact we are the ones who have realized that solely martial qualities will lead us to nowhere in this era. We are getting education and we are trying hard in business. We are fullfilling our martial spirit by joining pakistan army, the real power in pakistan.

bragging about hotels star numbers? is that what u paki stooges have been reduced to? lol u must be proud of ur 5 star hotels occupied by blackwater agents and the like.

and if the paki army is the real power in pakistan, pakistan is doomed. an institution dependent on foreign money that cant even defeat some chaplack wearing talibs and doesnt control the western part of the country.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Your dad from "Afghanistan". What an irony. You still sound too Pakistani.

How does one sound Pakistani? Anything that doesnt work with the ethnocentric propaganda machine is pakistani by default? please elaborate.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Ahmed Shah Baba's rule was over domain under the Durrani Empire which he sought through conquest and diplomacy. So you are telling me Pakiland and India was also Khorasan? He has declared himself the king of Delhi too, does that mean anything?His origin was Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan which chronologically is known since 10th century for locality in which enthnie Afghans inhabited -right from Suleman range to eastern edges of today's KPK. As for sources read Modern Afghanistan by the very Tajik author Amin Saikal in 20 something pages, and another one of a favorite source would Persian Geographic Enclopedia, which I can find out for you. That is Persian sources for you to be content with. Afghanistan came in to existance as autonomous political entity from Ahmed Shah Baba's time. Afghanistan only incorporated regions within it's territory. There is no ambiguity there.

As for Shah Shuja, your understanding of Afghanistan's struggle against imperialism and freedom is as hapless as that British protege and puppet who was trashed by Afghans to where you are from. This only signifies and reaffirms what I have said, not otherwise or to the contrary. Shah Shuja like your Ranjist Singh leader or Qaid e Azam is not revered by us Afghans but recognised and despised as British agent whom Afghans never allowed to be ruled by.

He didn't declare himself King of Delhi; he said he conquered the throne of Delhi. Please stop peddling propaganda and start providinG EVIDENCE; I know that's hard for the brainwashed to do ; but try to do so. And if we are to take Ahmad Shah Abdali's claim as Ruler of Khorasaan correctly it would only suffice that Delhi and other regions were annexed under that administration as well.

Please show one document A SINGLE DOCUMENT where Ahmad Shah Abdali claims his kingdom was Afghanistan; that's the only smoking gun.

Shah Shuja was trashed you say? Is that why the boundaries he alllotted to Ranjit Singh and The British Raj remained intact? You're only fooling yourself here.



Afghans by where I am from? My dad's from Ghazni, when did Shah Shuja seek refuge in Ghazni?

Apparently anyone who's not brainwashed and follows some delusional mythified concoction of Afghan history is a Pakistani to you. How convenient? That's the problem with Afghans we want fairy tales rather than Truth.

[fzpz]

SX, every "nation" has their delusional mythical historical narrative. All attempts to cement themselves more versus the other. That's why you see afghans blabbering about "thousands of years of history" and Pakis about Bin Qasim etc. Leads to bickering over completely useless things. Histories are complex, as is the notion of "nations". Afghans (particularly from Afghanistan) like to use Abdali for their own purposes, the reality that he was an "islamist" and had a "muslim first" (albeit ones he liked and submitted to him) is uncomfortable to them. I doubt he'd support such a narrow concept as today's narrow ethno-linguistic nationalism.