Why I dislike pashtuns

[girls-are-bad]

hi lewayne zalmaye:

i'm completely against those killings, every human life is precious in my books. I just don't agree with some aspects of pashtun's attitudes, that's all. Now is it a crime to disagree with someone? Please dont paint all urdu speaking people with the same brush.

the problem in my opinion is not the culture, its the favoritism that results from it. Pushto speakers trust each other over non=pushto speakers and this is millions of people we're talking about, not a small minority.

and why do i suggest that urdu should be promoted as everyone's language? because almost everybody already speaks it and understands, but its not spoken enough to progress among international languages. so because its ahead of othe rlanguages in the country by far, why not take it. but then again, if retaining your language is more important than living in a developed country, i dont know what to say. i would be willing to learn pashtu for the sake of national spirit if it were to be made national language. but give me a good reason?

Also, if you are a karachi resident, you must be aware that pushtuns are very rarely employed in salaried positions which are the only people that pay taxes.

furthermore, there is no sindhi culture in karachi. its only in interior sindh. new generation of sindhis born here speak urdu mostly.

[girls-are-bad]

Well. lol why do i have to keep repeating. muhajirs DO NOT, I REPAT THEY DO NOT HAVE A CULTURE, or customs, or moral codes or anything like that. so what do you mean saying that we imposed "our culture". also, we came to karachi because we were homeless, if it were not for the sacrifices of urdu speaking people pakistan would still have been with hindus. millions of muhajirs died migrating to pakistan and hindus and sikhs had turned on the ones that remained there. so its not like we came here for economic motives or had a choice. and we are not that different from sindhis.

[Toramana]

From my personal interactions, the mohajirs in Karachi are mainly jahils. Mohajirs also moved to Lahore, Peshawar (2nd largest mohajir city), Pindi, Hyderabad, Multan, Faisalabad... and you don't hear of the need of MQM wallas. They integrated well into the native societies. Similarly, there are Pashtuns in Lahore and other cities of Pakistan yet you don't hear of ethnic violence in those places. The logical conclusion is that the mqmwalla cult are to blame, for not coming to terms as just another part of society at large. There is no need for anyone to integrate into anything. In the case of Karachi i think the two largest groups (mohajirs and pashtuns) are having an economic tussle.

I agree with you on this point.

Most of this Jahalat/ignorance comes from their sense of (assumed)cultural superiority. They expect every nation in Pakistan to adopt the imported culture from UP because that is a symbol of Muslim domination in India and a foundation of Indian Muslim identity...and because that is refined ( a very contestible view).

If the MQM wallas were wise people, they would have reached out to other communities in Karachi by giving them some space/leverage in the politics and economy of that city. That way, other communities could have become more positively disposed to their culture. What have they done rather is to create enemies i.e. Sindhis and Pashtuns. Like other South Asian, they are smart at playing tactics but not smart at being strategic.

They have this kind of "greedy-approach" (jump at what is visible without regard to the likelihood of that option leading to a sub-optimal situation).

[girls-are-bad]

Well, there must be something about "muhajirs" way of life that karachi (where a large number of muhajirs landed) developed much faster than any other city of pakistan. we dont have any special clothes, dances, customs, tribes, standards etc. and this is what seems to work, in my opinion. you could say that it developed because everyone else migrated here from other parts of pakistan. So my question is why did they in the first place? there must be some reason that karachi developed faster than other parts of pakistan right from get-go after independence.

Also please don't mention MQM in this thread now, because first off their actions are not represntative of muhajirs. Almost every muhajir i know and i am sure majority that i dont know would not even dream of joining the mqm or engaging in political crossfires. and secondly, mqm have people from all ethnic groups, including pushtons. this discussion is not about mqm so dont get off-topic.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

hi lewayne zalmaye:

hi girls-are-bad

i'm completely against those killings, every human life is precious in my books. I just don't agree with some aspects of pashtun's attitudes, that's all. Now is it a crime to disagree with someone? Please dont paint all urdu speaking people with the same brush.

Don't paint all Pashtuns with the same brush by saying that "they" don't pay taxes, they don't do this, they do that and so on and so forth. Pashtuns are as diversified economically as Urdu speaking people are ethnically.

the problem in my opinion is not the culture, its the favoritism that results from it. Pushto speakers trust each other over non=pushto speakers and this is millions of people we're talking about, not a small minority.

Jinnah said that Muslims should stick together in the face of what he saw as Hindu hegemony. So is it okay for people to favor their fellow Muslims over non-Muslims but it's not okay for a Pashtun to favor his brother, with whom he shares a bond as old as time itself, over non-Pashtuns? Why?

and why do i suggest that urdu should be promoted as everyone's language? because almost everybody already speaks it and understands, but its not spoken enough to progress among international languages. so because its ahead of othe rlanguages in the country by far, why not take it. but then again, if retaining your language is more important than living in a developed country, i dont know what to say. i would be willing to learn pashtu for the sake of national spirit if it were to be made national language. but give me a good reason?

Let me get this right. The implementation of Urdu would lead to great success in Pakistan? By the way, ALL the Pashtuns I've ever met in Karachi can speak Urdu. They can understand the language and they can respond in it. So what problem do you have here? Of course a Pashtun will talk to another Pashtun in Pashto, how dare you suggest that he do otherwise? However, all Pashtuns in Karachi know enough Urdu to be able to communicate with you and that should sufficiently satisfy you.

Also, if you are a karachi resident, you must be aware that pushtuns are very rarely employed in salaried positions which are the only people that pay taxes.

How about the 2.7 million richest urban Pakistanis who don't pay their taxes (according to the Chairperson of the FBR)? Many Pashtuns own shops here everywhere from Empress Market and Jodia Bazar to Gulf Shopping Mall and the Saddar Mobile Market.

Of course there are domestic servants (mainly watchmen/gatekeepers) who don't pay taxes because they're paid in peanuts. I don't understand how they burden Karachi's economy, however, because their families are settled in KP/FATA and since they don't have Karachi ID cards (and since the MQM ensures that Pashtuns don't get their ID cards made here), they are unable to receive state-facilities. So how exactly is a watchman burderning your economically by living inside the servant quarters of his employer's home? What about the tens of millions of people who own businesses but don't pay all their taxes?

furthermore, there is no sindhi culture in karachi. its only in interior sindh. new generation of sindhis born here speak urdu mostly.

Yeah, that's because of the migrants. And now, you want that your foreign language should be imposed on Pashtuns, too.

Well, there must be something about "muhajirs" way of life that karachi (where a large number of muhajirs landed) developed much faster than any other city of pakistan. we dont have any special clothes, dances, customs, tribes, standards etc. and this is what seems to work, in my opinion. you could say that it developed because everyone else migrated here from other parts of pakistan. So my question is why did they in the first place? there must be some reason that karachi developed faster than other parts of pakistan right from get-go after independence.

If the "development" of Karachi can be accredited to Mohajirs then they should also be blamed for the city's problems:

- Karachi is one of the most polluted cities in the world. Do you people not pay heed to cleanliness?

- Karachi has some of the highest crime rates in the world. Do I blame your boys for this as well (I'm talking about the ones roaming around on bikes and stealing cellphones)?

- Karachi is home to more diseases than many places in Africa. Everything from the Congo virus to Tuberculosis thrives here. Does this credit go to your people, too?

- Karachi is one of the most sectarian places on earth. Again, it's your city.

- Prostitution and drug-use thrive here. You can pick 'em up easily from Khadda Market, Zamzama, 26th Street and Tauheed Commercial after dark. 5 dollaz, she love you long time.


So are you willing to accept responsibility for these problems as well? If not then stop accrediting yourselves with Karachi's 'development'.

Here are some facts:

Karachi was already the most developed city in Pakistan in 1947. The British established its port facilities (which still stand today) and established Karachi's airport in 1924 if I'm not mistaken. It was leaps and bounds ahead of the 2nd most developed city, Lahore. That is why many communities began settling here (Parsis, Memons, Pashtuns, Gujratis, etc) well before 1947. Read up. And that is why it was initially the country's capital.

Port cities also develop faster than inland settlements. Take Athens, Rome, London, New York, Sydney, Mumbai and Alexandria (Egypt) for example.

Also please don't mention MQM in this thread now, because first off their actions are not represntative of muhajirs. Almost every muhajir i know and i am sure majority that i dont know would not even dream of joining the mqm or engaging in political crossfires. and secondly, mqm have people from all ethnic groups, including pushtons. this discussion is not about mqm so dont get off-topic.

MQM claims to represent you. And your grievances go hand-in-hand with theirs. Why do your people vote for them then?



Kind Regards

[Azad Khel]

Payment of Taxes:


You are talking about income tax on salary, which is deducted under section 153 of the Income Tax Ordinance 2001.

I am discussing this topic in detail:

1- This tax is deducted at source under Income Tax Law thus, tax payers have no control to avoid such tax.

2- This tax is a very nominal portion of the total taxes. The major revenue of taxes is generated from indirect taxes i.e. Sales Tax, Custom Duty etc. other direct taxes are collected from corporate sector. The tax collected from resident individual being a salaried person is not that huge amount where one can claim that it is responsible for all the development work carried on the street of Karachi.

3- This tax is collected by the federal government (Federal Board of Revenue) thus it has nothing to do with the population of a specific city. This is collected by Islamabad and thereafter, spent for various projects of the federal government or funds transferred to provinces through NFC Award. I want to say that this is not a city tax, which is collected from the rich people of the city and then spent on the projects of the same city. This does not make the scenario where tax is paid by the urdu speaking community and Pukhtoon are benefited from the same.

4- Under the prevailing rules of the Income Tax Laws the salary income is exempted from tax upto Rs.300,000 per annum, a person getting a salary upto Rs. 25,000 per month has to pay no tax. This means the tax is paid by the privileged class of the society. This is a rule all around the globe, even Islam imposes Zakat on the rich class to be paid to the poor ones.

5- You know that we have very poor economy. Our tax structure is not very strong at the end of the day we have to rely on foreign aids or loans. Many of us are aware that our aids and loan comes from western sources, specially the U.S. You should know that all aids/loan Pakistan is receiving is due to the problem at Pukhtoon land. The Musharraf regime received around 10 billions dollars in aids from the US. This amount was spent mostly in Punjab and Sindh specially Karachi. Thus the roads and bridges which were constructed in Karachi during Musharraf regime were not financed by your taxes rather these were financed by the Pukhtoon blood.

6- The Afghans sacrificed more than 2,000,000 lives to save the Karachi port from the Russian invaders. Otherwise we would have a different story and history my dear.

I personally respect many Urdu Speaking people as they have great services and these people were very humble, polite and well mannered before this so-called “Movement”. Still here are many good people we meet daily.

[Michin Khel]

Well. lol why do i have to keep repeating. muhajirs DO NOT, I REPAT THEY DO NOT HAVE A CULTURE, or customs, or moral codes or anything like that. so what do you mean saying that we imposed "our culture". also, we came to karachi because we were homeless, if it were not for the sacrifices of urdu speaking people pakistan would still have been with hindus. millions of muhajirs died migrating to pakistan and hindus and sikhs had turned on the ones that remained there. so its not like we came here for economic motives or had a choice. and we are not that different from sindhis.

It were punjabis who were getting massacred by hindus and sikhs in east punjab. The mohajirs of karachi were from UP, Bihar, mumbai etc, and they come to pakistan to test new life in new country, they were not getting massacred.
Those mohajirs from east punjab settled in their own punjab but you people were foreigners and deprived the poor and weak sindhis of their own province. You people are unwanted tumour on body of pakistan.

[Gulbabo]

Should the pashtoons expect the panjabis in pashtoon majority areas, such as some areas of balochistan and KPK to leave their language and culture too?

there are many panjabis who reside in pashtoon dominated areas in pakistan, I haven't seen them speaking pashto, or following pashtoonwali. have u?

[randolph85]

the pashtuns in kabul have historically spoken farsi because they have been a minority in kabul city and the city was persianized. with demographic changes, specifically former refugees arriving in kabul and pashtuns from across the country coming to the capital for economic opportunity, the status of pashto has been rising in the city. kabul is no longer the city of zahir shah times, where kabulis would look down on those with beards and traditional clothing because today that is how most people look like.

[Gulbabo]

but don't Pashtuns in Kabul speak Farsi? Nothing against Farsi, but sister, maybe you should reexamine Kabul you know?

are you obsessed with kabul or something? you keep bringing kabul when u are addressing me. I am not a kabuli (not that there is anything wrong with being one)... Kabul is capital of my country Afghanistan. are you not from Afghanistan?

anyways, I think Randolph brother answered your question. The inhabitants of Kabul city were mainly Darizuban, and pashtoons were on the outskirt, but it changed when capital was moved to kabul. Many came to kabul for economic development and better job/education opportunities...so the status of Pashto in Kabul city grew tremendously.

currently Kabul is not only Darizuban, its actually on the contrary, you willl find majority of the business owners, an governmental officers to be pashtoons. majority of restuarants, shops, and other businesses are owned by pashtoons, so you would hear pashto very commonly in kabul.

kabul city used to be known as a city of the ones with highest of standards, and education. u know the ones that were ultra modern and sophisticated, the dress code was very western, and social gatherings were mainly western influenced, but now it has changed a lot. it has become a melting pot now, with influx of Afghans from all surounding provinces so seeing someone with kamees partog and turban or women with chadari is very common in kabul city.

[Manzareh]

A pushtun would naturally trust someone who speaks pushtu over a non-pushtu one, regardless of whether he deserves his trust or not. Things like this within a country aren't appropriate.

But isnt that the same with every nation in the world. naturally you trust someone that looks like you, speaks the same language and has the same customs as you, its not something you can control. this is the reason why here in the west you have areas of isolated people, indian areas, latino areas, black areas. A pushtun would naturally trust someone who speaks pushtu over a non-pushtu one would be the same as a Punjabi which trusts another punjabi over a non-punjabi.

[salahuddin]

Payment of Taxes:


You are talking about income tax on salary, which is deducted under section 153 of the Income Tax Ordinance 2001.

I am discussing this topic in detail:

1- This tax is deducted at source under Income Tax Law thus, tax payers have no control to avoid such tax.

2- This tax is a very nominal portion of the total taxes. The major revenue of taxes is generated from indirect taxes i.e. Sales Tax, Custom Duty etc. other direct taxes are collected from corporate sector. The tax collected from resident individual being a salaried person is not that huge amount where one can claim that it is responsible for all the development work carried on the street of Karachi.

3- This tax is collected by the federal government (Federal Board of Revenue) thus it has nothing to do with the population of a specific city. This is collected by Islamabad and thereafter, spent for various projects of the federal government or funds transferred to provinces through NFC Award. I want to say that this is not a city tax, which is collected from the rich people of the city and then spent on the projects of the same city. This does not make the scenario where tax is paid by the urdu speaking community and Pukhtoon are benefited from the same.

4- Under the prevailing rules of the Income Tax Laws the salary income is exempted from tax upto Rs.300,000 per annum, a person getting a salary upto Rs. 25,000 per month has to pay no tax. This means the tax is paid by the privileged class of the society. This is a rule all around the globe, even Islam imposes Zakat on the rich class to be paid to the poor ones.

5- You know that we have very poor economy. Our tax structure is not very strong at the end of the day we have to rely on foreign aids or loans. Many of us are aware that our aids and loan comes from western sources, specially the U.S. You should know that all aids/loan Pakistan is receiving is due to the problem at Pukhtoon land. The Musharraf regime received around 10 billions dollars in aids from the US. This amount was spent mostly in Punjab and Sindh specially Karachi. Thus the roads and bridges which were constructed in Karachi during Musharraf regime were not financed by your taxes rather these were financed by the Pukhtoon blood.

6- The Afghans sacrificed more than 2,000,000 lives to save the Karachi port from the Russian invaders. Otherwise we would have a different story and history my dear.

I personally respect many Urdu Speaking people as they have great services and these people were very humble, polite and well mannered before this so-called “Movement”. Still here are many good people we meet daily.

You did not sacriface anything to save a Pakistani Port from an Russian invasion. You actually gave Pakistan your country for free by destroying it and listening to Pakistani Propaganda.

Azadkhel, Pakistan was spreading such non-sense as you say way before any soviet entered your country, the Peshawer 7 was used to lure the Soviets into Afghanistan.

those 2,000,000 million or so who died, sorry to say, they all died due to Pakistani/CIA meddling, and they also died for Pakistani Political/Jamiet Interests.

Only the ISI and Zia ul haq Punjabi Jamiet governmetn said stupid things like stop russian invasion of their ports.

I am sorry to see people still have fallen to that crap.

AzadKhel, the result of the soviets leaving, shows the real picture of that war when Afghans turned on themselves for Pakistani Interests

[salahuddin]

^^u haha...

its a forum, anyone could be anyone..

Yeah I have the same feeling about you. haha

[salahuddin]

First of all, Pakistani Migrants need to pay taxes in the West before they speak about Pashtuns not paying taxes in Karachi.

Sheer Hypocrasy. Show me a single person in Pakistan who pays Tax?

[girls-are-bad]

hi girls-are-bad





Don't paint all Pashtuns with the same brush by saying that "they" don't pay taxes, they don't do this, they do that and so on and so forth. Pashtuns are as diversified economically as Urdu speaking people are ethnically.





Jinnah said that Muslims should stick together in the face of what he saw as Hindu hegemony. So is it okay for people to favor their fellow Muslims over non-Muslims but it's not okay for a Pashtun to favor his brother, with whom he shares a bond as old as time itself, over non-Pashtuns? Why?





Let me get this right. The implementation of Urdu would lead to great success in Pakistan? By the way, ALL the Pashtuns I've ever met in Karachi can speak Urdu. They can understand the language and they can respond in it. So what problem do you have here? Of course a Pashtun will talk to another Pashtun in Pashto, how dare you suggest that he do otherwise? However, all Pashtuns in Karachi know enough Urdu to be able to communicate with you and that should sufficiently satisfy you.






How about the 2.7 million richest urban Pakistanis who don't pay their taxes (according to the Chairperson of the FBR)? Many Pashtuns own shops here everywhere from Empress Market and Jodia Bazar to Gulf Shopping Mall and the Saddar Mobile Market.

Of course there are domestic servants (mainly watchmen/gatekeepers) who don't pay taxes because they're paid in peanuts. I don't understand how they burden Karachi's economy, however, because their families are settled in KP/FATA and since they don't have Karachi ID cards (and since the MQM ensures that Pashtuns don't get their ID cards made here), they are unable to receive state-facilities. So how exactly is a watchman burderning your economically by living inside the servant quarters of his employer's home? What about the tens of millions of people who own businesses but don't pay all their taxes?




Yeah, that's because of the migrants. And now, you want that your foreign language should be imposed on Pashtuns, too.








If the "development" of Karachi can be accredited to Mohajirs then they should also be blamed for the city's problems:

- Karachi is one of the most polluted cities in the world. Do you people not pay heed to cleanliness?

- Karachi has some of the highest crime rates in the world. Do I blame your boys for this as well (I'm talking about the ones roaming around on bikes and stealing cellphones)?

- Karachi is home to more diseases than many places in Africa. Everything from the Congo virus to Tuberculosis thrives here. Does this credit go to your people, too?

- Karachi is one of the most sectarian places on earth. Again, it's your city.

- Prostitution and drug-use thrive here. You can pick 'em up easily from Khadda Market, Zamzama, 26th Street and Tauheed Commercial after dark. 5 dollaz, she love you long time.


So are you willing to accept responsibility for these problems as well? If not then stop accrediting yourselves with Karachi's 'development'.

Here are some facts:

Karachi was already the most developed city in Pakistan in 1947. The British established its port facilities (which still stand today) and established Karachi's airport in 1924 if I'm not mistaken. It was leaps and bounds ahead of the 2nd most developed city, Lahore. That is why many communities began settling here (Parsis, Memons, Pashtuns, Gujratis, etc) well before 1947. Read up. And that is why it was initially the country's capital.

Port cities also develop faster than inland settlements. Take Athens, Rome, London, New York, Sydney, Mumbai and Alexandria (Egypt) for example.



MQM claims to represent you. And your grievances go hand-in-hand with theirs. Why do your people vote for them then?



Kind Regards

Well sorry but no, just using it for communicating with me isn't sufficient. You aren't looking at the big picture. Pakistan can't advance any of it's native languages if a large majority in the country does not support it fully. do i need to explain how a strong language plays its part in a country's advancement? for one, it would finish off the dependence on english for education and office use. people can perform better in their native toungues but how can they if the language is too weak to be used in higher education or offices.

also to trust muslims over non muslims is Islam's orders, not urdu speaking people's.

i will reply to your other points in a while as i am a bit of short on time right now