History of Wahabyat,, Read

[Badlun]

None of us are prophets or anything of sort. So making assumption that there is a certain 'right' way is ironically wrong. That is also the reason there exists many sects or forms of Islam. It is basically a matter of interpretation.

The way I personally follow Islam, is basically showing others the way I think is correctly and explain why it is. Then whether the other person believes it or not, is up to him. I do not force my 'version' in others, but simply explain it to them and show them what my logic is based upon.

One should always be a good exemplar to non-believers, and a good exemplar to the 'other' 'sects' of Islam. At least this is how I see a good muslim regardless of their sect.

I personally don't believe everything that is written in quran is metaphorical as you put it, but certain parts where you can use your rationality to determine. Like the part of gods hand, which makes sense when converted into 'non-literal' way or metaphor if you will.

Which isn't the case with haj or salat. Where it is basically spelled out how and what to do. Nor do I personally find any spirituality, if I pray in non-ritual way. Ritual way; Body cleaned and mind focused on god, I don't think it can be more spiritual.

Yet again, I will personally not judge others the way they do it or the way they interpret Islam. I just find it as my duty as a Muslim to show others the way I think is correct, the rest is up to them.

Judging by your comments Badlun. You force your point of view of Islam upon others, which I personally find wrong. What makes you different from the very 'Islamist' you're against.

DSM as usual I like your candid approach. I agree with your standpoint here that is the matter of interpretation and then the end user decides what to take and what to leave. It is like a supermarket where we have a lot of options and we decide what suits us. However everyone does marketing for his/her brand.

My brand of Islam is esoteric, spiritual, Sufi, mystic, Osho or Ismaili kind of Islam. I do not believe in literalness/formalism/ritualism of Salafis/ Wahabis/ Deobandis/ Tablighis.

For me meditation is also salat and any help is Zakat and any visit to holy place is Haj and keeping silent for some time is Saum. It does not mean I do not practice the established modes. Those are some of the modes of these spiritual practices.

But I do not understand that if you urinate then why not cleansing that part does not enable you to pray? Why you have to wash your face and feet if only that organ was dirty and not face or hands? If you fart then why you have to wash your other parts of body?

If blood oozes out of your arm, you have to wash your face, hands and feet? After sexual intercourse why not you wash only those parts why the whole body? And why you repeat the same sentences in your prayer and the same postures always?

[DSM0305]

DSM as usual I like your candid approach. I agree with your standpoint here that is the matter of interpretation and then the end user decides what to take and what to leave. It is like a supermarket where we have a lot of options and we decide what suits us. However everyone does marketing for his/her brand.

My brand of Islam is esoteric, spiritual, Sufi, mystic, Osho or Ismaili kind of Islam. I do not believe in literalness/formalism/ritualism of Salafis/ Wahabis/ Deobandis/ Tablighis.

For me meditation is also salat and any help is Zakat and any visit to holy place is Haj and keeping silent for some time is Saum. It does not mean I do not practice the established modes. Those are some of the modes of these spiritual practices.

But I do not understand that if you urinate then why not cleansing that part does not enable you to pray? Why you have to wash your face and feet if only that organ was dirty and not face or hands? If you fart then why you have to wash your other parts of body?

If blood oozes out of your arm, you have to wash your face, hands and feet? After sexual intercourse why not you wash only those parts why the whole body? And why you repeat the same sentences in your prayer and the same postures always?

I like how you remain calm in every situation. I have seen most people get furious over something and take the route of personal attacks(including myself, when they get out of line), while you remain calm. Even though I do not agree with most of what you say, but I highly respect the calm way you approach even in difficult debates.

I honestly, do not think one can compare it to a supermarket. As you yourself explained, in supermarket you pick and chose. While how I see Islam is that one have to take everything, but interpret it to something that you think is the truth.

The way you describe it, it seems more of a picking for cultural purpose. While I think one should see and interpret it to something one believe is the truth.

Regarding the washing. There will always come fecal mater/molecule of waste(in form of tiny particles) when urinating or releasing gas. This is also why literally almost everything in this world smells. When our nose picks up molecules from things, it gives a particular smells depending on what kind of molecule it picked up. Basically what I am trying to say is; as long something gives out a smell, it means that thing have spread its particles. So it is only logical why one have to wash everything over again.

When one have sexual intercourse. The body heat is up and we all know how the body is cooling itself down. So it is only logical for one to wash himself(even if one is not religious). So this is basically self given.

Regarding why one have to repeat the sentences etc. It is what spirituality is and how you connect with god. Like meditating, you're doing something specific. Same thing with prayer, you're connecting yourself with god. One should view prayers as being in present of god.
When in old times and even today, when you meet someone from royal family, it is expected from you that you bow. When you meet a king who is in your equal value, because he is a human like you. Now imagine being before a god. If one knows the translation of the prayer, one will understand the logic behind why these posture and sentences are repeated(when you're before god).

[Badlun]

I like how you remain calm in every situation. I have seen most people get furious over something and take the route of personal attacks(including myself, when they get out of line), while you remain calm. Even though I do not agree with most of what you say, but I highly respect the calm way you approach even in difficult debates.

I honestly, do not think one can compare it to a supermarket. As you yourself explained, in supermarket you pick and chose. While how I see Islam is that one have to take everything, but interpret it to something that you think is the truth.

The way you describe it, it seems more of a picking for cultural purpose. While I think one should see and interpret it to something one believe is the truth.

Regarding the washing. There will always come fecal mater/molecule of waste(in form of tiny particles) when urinating or releasing gas. This is also why literally almost everything in this world smells. When our nose picks up molecules from things, it gives a particular smells depending on what kind of molecule it picked up. Basically what I am trying to say is; as long something gives out a smell, it means that thing have spread its particles. So it is only logical why one have to wash everything over again.

When one have sexual intercourse. The body heat is up and we all know how the body is cooling itself down. So it is only logical for one to wash himself(even if one is not religious). So this is basically self given.

Regarding why one have to repeat the sentences etc. It is what spirituality is and how you connect with god. Like meditating, you're doing something specific. Same thing with prayer, you're connecting yourself with god. One should view prayers as being in present of god.
When in old times and even today, when you meet someone from royal family, it is expected from you that you bow. When you meet a king who is in your equal value, because he is a human like you. Now imagine being before a god. If one knows the translation of the prayer, one will understand the logic behind why these posture and sentences are repeated(when you're before god).

This way we can learn and share if we remain calm. I have exposure to almost every kind of society, culture and religion and have seen people discussing very difficult and controversial issues in a very polite and calm way. In this virtual world of internet, we should use the opportunity to learn and share not to have personal grudges. I wish we have many members like you with whom one can enjoy a real intellectual conversation.

The problems is that why ablutions just before the prayers only? If you urinate for example at 7 am and you have to perform prayers at 2 pm, you wash your body parts and face at 0145 pm. All these hours you remain dirty which does not matter but few minutes before prayer you wash your self.

Again blood oozes out or one farts in one place but you wash other parts. Germs or molecules can spread over the whole body then why we wash only hands, face and feet?

One can have sex in an air-conditioned room and have no perspiration so why one should definitely take a bath after sex? Why we do not take bath before sex to have clean bodies as two persons come together in the intimate way?

For me Mullahs stress post sex bath as they say sex makes you dirty and the earth tremble until you take bath. Imagine in a night of December in Kunar or Swat, how one can immediately take bath after sex at night time?

Also many Muslims even do not know the meaning of the sentences they utter in prayers. The way congregational prayers are conducted are also not a very impressive way from spiritual point of view. People rush to mosque , stand in lines, having few postures and run away from the mosque in a very artificial and shallow way.

I like more Tahajud prayer than the prayer in mosques. I like the silence in a Church or a Buddhist temple too. I am more for spiritual worship than the rituals performed five times. One can pray lying in the bed or travelling or walking or sitting on the bank of a river.

[DSM0305]

This way we can learn and share if we remain calm. I have exposure to almost every kind of society, culture and religion and have seen people discussing very difficult and controversial issues in a very polite and calm way. In this virtual world of internet, we should use the opportunity to learn and share not to have personal grudges. I wish we have many members like you with whom one can enjoy a real intellectual conversation.

The problems is that why ablutions just before the prayers only? If you urinate for example at 7 am and you have to perform prayers at 2 pm, you wash your body parts and face at 0145 pm. All these hours you remain dirty which does not matter but few minutes before prayer you wash your self.

Again blood oozes out or one farts in one place but you wash other parts. Germs or molecules can spread over the whole body then why we wash only hands, face and feet?

One can have sex in an air-conditioned room and have no perspiration so why one should definitely take a bath after sex? Why we do not take bath before sex to have clean bodies as two persons come together in the intimate way?

For me Mullahs stress post sex bath as they say sex makes you dirty and the earth tremble until you take bath. Imagine in a night of December in Kunar or Swat, how one can immediately take bath after sex at night time?

Also many Muslims even do not know the meaning of the sentences they utter in prayers. The way congregational prayers are conducted are also not a very impressive way from spiritual point of view. People rush to mosque , stand in lines, having few postures and run away from the mosque in a very artificial and shallow way.

I like more Tahajud prayer than the prayer in mosques. I like the silence in a Church or a Buddhist temple too. I am more for spiritual worship than the rituals performed five times. One can pray lying in the bed or travelling or walking or sitting on the bank of a river.

Completely agree. Calm approaches towards a certain subject makes a good and educational discussion.

One isn't dirty in a way that can harm one(one hopefully washes his hand after urinating). So washing the whole body before praying is normal. So one is clean before meeting god. Remember, as I said before, praying is like approaching god.

The reason we washes hands, feet and the head(which you forgot to mention). Is because those parts are exposed and also it is those parts one uses when praying.

I find it a bit funny that I have to explain biology, but here it goes. One cannot get erection if it is to cold. Basically there is two scenario that will happen.
1. You cannot get it up because of the cold
2. You get it working. Which means the heat circumstances was right. Ergo your body will react to the warmth. Remember under those conditions, one is in movement, one is getting the body heat from his partner and a few other factors. So there is no way to avoid the body cool down under sexual intercourse.

Going in the bath before will kinda ruin the mood... anyway, one isn't dirty before intercourse. And if one is for some odd reason, then it is self given to go to bath...

I honestly find it extremely weird that you don't want to go to bath after intercourse. It isn't a matter of religion to do so. No offense, but it is quite disgusting to not do so. Whether one is religious or an atheist, I am pretty sure they will agree on this point...

Islam doesn't force anything upon anyone. If the circumstances put ones health in danger, then most rules is nullified. In the other hand, if one doesn't do it because of laziness, then one is condemned regardless of religion. Since laziness isn't appreciated in human society in general.

It isn't the responsibility of the religion, when its followers prays in a wrong way.

One can do all those things in Islam as well...

Here is a good saying for you:
If it is important to you, you will find a way. If not, you’ll find an excuse.

[skswati]

thanx