afghan or pakistani

[IamDZJ]

none of your business. that's what i am.

[haviZsultan]

i always hear about how theres no difference between us Pashtuns. Actually theres a ton of difference. Our ancestors resisted the British, they were subject to it. Our people fought for independence, theyres had their independence granted by mountbatten. we have had to live a life of poverty for our independence, they never made a similar sacrifice

I believe there is no limit to the brotherhood and love Pashtuns on both sides feel for each other but I agree that people on both sides have separate ways of thinking.

However it is still a misconception that Pashtuns on this side did nothing in reality to achieve their independence even if that independence meant being with Pakistan. The sacrifices of Abdur Rab Nishtar and other people are well known. 3 of the 4 people in the now or never movement were Pashtuns. Pashtuns took the front role in Pakistan's independence from the British.

What about Faqir of Ipi who harassed the British until they withdrew. Pakistani Pashtuns were always rebellious and stood up the most to the British, especially in contrast to the Punjabi's who just accepted any government. Pashtuns on this side never accepted slavery. Just being loyal to Pakistan is not proof of that.

[fzpz]

the original sin imo was accepting sikh control, a sin for all pashtuns. Fight and defeat them then no durand line issue, just the successor state of the durrani empire. The british and later Pakistan are not the issue.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

When you do that, your an obsticle for the survival of your indegenous culture, language, and homeland.

Khushal from what I gather, I think everyone would be fine being a part of a Shadow governer led or Khushal led (or like minded) Pashtun state. The perception that these guys are holding onto is that they already have one sneaky a-hole as their President in a barely functioning state, why should they trade that for a clown that wears a green cape and is the sneaky a-hole's imitator? And I think thats a valid question. The current situation, when left unexplained, is like telling them...

1) Hey guys, wake up and see you are Pashtun... Pashtun is synonymous with Afghan.... Afghan means Pashtun.... Afghan was what we were called... here is a replica page from a history book 500 years ago. Ok so now they are awake. You got them to admit that their ancestors even had original tribal bases in the UN recognized borders of Afghanistan. Onward to step 2.

2) OK guys, now drop out of your schools and other functioning facilities that are barely working, but still providing a semi stable societal framework replete with corruption and slough that off to destroy all of that. Instead of getting robbed by Sherpao, get robbed by Sherzai. After all, its just the difference in one syllable.. zai and pao... you wont even notice the difference! But actually you will because Sherzai is really really really dumb and gets paid off to watch his own getting killed and Sherpao just does it like a knife slicing through butter (without any noise).

3) Hey you know theres a guy sitting in London who is the slimiest gangster of all killing you and yours in Karachi... he started this party that pretty much prides itself on killing your sons and besmirching your daughters in Karachi as well. So trade him out for a guy named Saleh up in the North... Or better yet, take both.

4) President Zardarzai in Kabul vs President Zardari in Islamabad. One is a corrupt murderer who looted his nation, the other is a guy who cries like John Boehner but looks even dumber when he stabs his own people in the back.

5) Guys in white vans kicking your doors down and in black helicopters raiding your cities now and then ----> Raiding your cities and villages all the time. Sounds like a great deal. In fact, the guys in white vans wont even try to blend in anymore, they will all just wear their fatigues.

6) Local corrupt rats... Oh a corrupt Malik in Waziristan for a corrupt Bacha Khan Zadrani ... whose more retarded? They can compete for that title.

7) Your nation was British created... its like a Chevy Nova from the 70s... getting rusted by still running somehow. We dont you trade that old Chevy in for a Detroit produced Ford.... Vroooom Vrooom... hear that engine purr??? Whats she got under there driver? Why there's a lot of horse power under there son. Your nation is that old British thing... this new one, its in the process of being NATO? American? British? made?

I dont get what they are supposed to wake up to? Is the idea to wake them up from one nightmare into the next one?

Look at who jumps on the bandwagon? Toramana? When has Toramana ever had any good ideas for preservation of authentic Pashtun identity or for the defense of Islam. That's like the equivalent of Sarah Palin endorsing pashtunistan in my opinion.

Shadow governer thus far is the only one who understands the idea has to be presented as autonomy completely, not simply just saying to a slave... hey I got a sleek new master... he's actually the son of the old master... drinks coffee... not tea...

Instead they get deluged with lar and bar talk and using bases as force balancers from some bald headed retard wearing karakuls and chapaans who calls himself a muhajid and has the same versace suit in 50 varieties.

The discussion has to be framed in complete autonomy. You build a powerful autonomous nation with smart independent people resembling Khushaals and Ghaznavis and Shadow Governers alike, then the slave across the street will want to be free as well.

[MostafaM]

Khushal from what I gather, I think everyone would be fine being a part of a Shadow governer led or Khushal led (or like minded) Pashtun state. The perception that these guys are holding onto is that they already have one sneaky a-hole as their President in a barely functioning state, why should they trade that for a clown that wears a green cape and is the sneaky a-hole's imitator? And I think thats a valid question. The current situation, when left unexplained, is like telling them...

Why being afraid of the future?
Why accepting one sneaky president because another one would be sneakier?

Why not understanding the fact that a group of people talking the same language, having the same religion and history and being the backbone of atleast one state (Afghanistan) should be united?

Would you have hold this speech for Germans in the communist-led German Democratic Republic? Would say these things to Koreans, too?

What does this fatalistic and pro-status quo of being divided and subjugated to the interest spheres of many mean, Barakzai Saib?

The discussion has to be framed in complete autonomy. You build a powerful autonomous nation with smart independent people resembling Khushaals and Ghaznavis and Shadow Governers alike, then the slave across the street will want to be free as well.

OK.
Agreed.
A nation needs people who go ahead and build it.
First, the Khushals, Ghaznavis and Governers have to agree on a framework to work in and that should be free of any political ideology but just provide the ability for a nation of thousand minds and views to come together and to find a common ground.

In my mind that common ground are common interests and those interests are:
NOT being subject to cultural, liguistic, economical, military and political subjugation and/or exploitation.
The best way to achieve that is through a vision of unity.
Vision of Unity has to come first, even if it´s created as a nucleus inside a sociaty and attracts others afterwards.
Unity can´t be achieved at the end of the process, it´s seeds need to be in the people to grow.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Why being afraid of the future?
Why accepting one sneaky president because another one would be sneakier?

Why not understanding the fact that a group of people talking the same language, having the same religion and history and being the backbone of atleast one state (Afghanistan) should be united?

Would you have hold this speech for Germans in the communist-led German Democratic Republic? Would say these things to Koreans, too?

What does this fatalistic and pro-status quo of being divided and subjugated to the interest spheres of many mean, Barakzai Saib?




OK.
Agreed.
A nation needs people who go ahead and build it.
First, the Khushals, Ghaznavis and Governers have to agree on a framework to work in and that should be free of any political ideology but just provide the ability for a nation of thousand minds and views to come together and to find a common ground.

In my mind that common ground are common interests and those interests are:
NOT being subject to cultural, liguistic, economical, military and political subjugation and/or exploitation.
The best way to achieve that is through a vision of unity.
Vision of Unity has to come first, even if it´s created as a nucleus inside a sociaty and attracts others afterwards.
Unity can´t be achieved at the end of the process, it´s seeds need to be in the people to grow.

Yes my wise and patient Brother, but what do they join?

To one group of people the choice is a group of Pashtuns derived from the rural mass, the country side, who fought and bled against Russians, but who others view as pawns of Arabs and Panjabies. To one group they invited in a son of Arabia that would bring drones, tanks, blackhawks, etc.

To one group of people the choice is a group of Pashtuns who claim to know what is best for "their little brown brother" who fled abroad and now return on the back of an empire, claiming that, while they are a prisoner in their own country, that they will somehow use the empire to force neutralize surrounding threats. Others smarter than this man tried this and failed, welcoming decades of misery.

And yet another leadership offered is one that lives across a border, participating in the very shamocracy they claim to hate... proudly wearing a red fez to symbolize something called Surkh Posh from a bygone era. That leadership that stood neck to neck with a smiling killer of Pashtuns named Najibullah Ahmadzai? And welcomed in the Russians to murder uncles, aunts, cousins?

So then others come and say: Neither! Put these three in the back seat and get a new driver. Where is the driver? Is he in Guantanamo? Is he in Germany? Is he in Washington DC? Is he being born in Kandahar? Is he in a village outside of Wana??? Where is this mysterious Pashtun messiah, Ahmad Shah risen again?

So Mostafa, give me an idea of, if you had control of their bodies and minds, what would you have them do in the next 24-48 hours? Would it go like this?

1) Rise up, all millions strong
2) march to islamabad and devastate it
3) declare independence of their province and include Balochistan
4) Make overtures to Karzai to unite into Afghanistan?
5) Now an Afghanistan exists with water way access yet under those conditions I cited above?
6) What does NATO(US) do during all this? Stand by and watch bro and bro running to eachother arm in arm? Does NATO(US) throw a large party for two united bros?

You are an educated man my friend... you know biology as well, if not better than me. You are trying to tell the organism: There is fresh meat here... why are you eating rotten meat? Its telling you: I cannot see, taste, or smell the meat you speak of but a portion of this meat is still providing my nutrition. The fresh meat sounds good, but a guy I trust less (for some reason) is offering that meat and like Pogo fish a part of it may be poisoned (Saleh). You tell the organism: Dont worry, I'll help you... have faith in me... I mean well for you. He turns to you and says, I hear that a lot these days in the madrassah, to have faith... isn't this a sort of faith then? So on the one hand God tells me to eject an infidel, and sure I have an equivalent sitting in Islamabad right now... but I cannot really see the pupetteer directly. Now across the way, where the fresh meat is... the puppeteer is apparent and he sure is just as deadly... no perhaps I will live another day eating rotten meat instead of dying trying to get the fresh meat (that may or may not exist).

[khushal]

The discussion has to be framed in complete autonomy. You build a powerful autonomous nation with smart independent people resembling Khushaals and Ghaznavis and Shadow Governers alike, then the slave across the street will want to be free as well.

I understand your point 100% Doctor Saib, the only problem I cant get over is that no matter who is in Kabul or Kandahar wheather its Omar, Karzai, Hekmatyar, or Fahim, they would be unable to create an autonomous state as long as that state is landlocked.
Afghanistan in the past with Amanallah, Dawood, Najib, Masood/Rabbani, Hekmatyar, Omar, Karzai were unable to let go of Pashtunistan, unable to recognize the Durand not because they were stupid but becasue they had no choice. The key to autonomy for Afghanistan are people like shahbaz and also he is the key to the survival of Pakistan. The truth is hard to grasp but the truth is one has to go and its people like shabhaz that can be an obsticle to Afghanistans survival or pathway to it.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

^I don't think it is realistic to use old paradigms for todays political scenario. Neither is Afghanistan as stable as it once was to be the sole backbone for Pashtuns. At the same time, Pakistan (imho) can't play the politics of the 90s and strategic depth. Taliban is not what it once was and has spread far out (in certain instances) of GHQ. I think it is time Pashtuns start considering a new alternative. We first need a short term strategy of what is to be done in the event NATO does leave....this will really tell where and what will happen to the region.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I understand your point 100% Doctor Saib, the only problem I cant get over is that no matter who is in Kabul or Kandahar wheather its Omar, Karzai, Hekmatyar, or Fahim, they would be unable to create an autonomous state as long as that state is landlocked.
Afghanistan in the past with Amanallah, Dawood, Najib, Masood/Rabbani, Hekmatyar, Omar, Karzai were unable to let go of Pashtunistan, unable to recognize the Durand not because they were stupid but becasue they had no choice. The key to autonomy for Afghanistan are people like shahbaz and also he is the key to the survival of Pakistan. The truth is hard to grasp but the truth is one has to go and its people like shabhaz that can be an obsticle to Afghanistans survival or pathway to it.

But that is what I said when I first started out here. The idea that "we are Pashtuns" is the hook... the line is Pashtunistan... and loya Afghanistan is the sinker. What God fearing person, or if one wants to be secular about it, or even atheistic about it (we can refer to humanism) would say we that another human being, with his own God given (or humanism given???) right to self determination who has decided his lot is with someone else would want to genocide his own (this other person)? Then the idea inverts and implodes... the hook is made of sand, the line is poisoned and the whole mess stinks because the blood of others will stain it. It then becomes a preverse lie.

Then their notion that they do not have well wishers across the durand line is proven correct; their conspiracy theories are proven true. Rather, they are simply seen as a means to an end... and expendable. And all, including strong ties to their Hindustani enemy with military support will be included in this march forward. This then finds an anchor in the perception that the Pashtunistan movement was a Daud era device to accomplish this ends by the aforementioned means. If this is so, why not be honest about it and just present it as was said? Then, the Durrani and Ghilzai brother can tell his other Durrani and Ghilzai brothers, the Wazirs, the Mehsuds, The Khalils, the Afridis, the Tor Khels, the Yusufzais that they are a national security hindrance to Afghanistan, plain and simple. Why the flowery language of Pashtun interdependence and Pashtunistan? Is it a ruse? Is it a bribe to tell them that if they join they wont suffer as much? If they mention Saleh, tell them that they better not mention his name again or else a boot is coming into their mouth.

Then Shadow Governor is the only one who makes complete sense right? After all, he is telling the Jaffari Iranian: you have oil... he is telling the Afghan: You have mineral wealth and abundent lands and strategic placement... he tells the Pakistani: you have natural gas in your hills and water way access.. he tells the istan states their own strengths and pipelines to oil and tells them that they need to expand their mind beyond simply a house with a garage (Afghanistan with water access) ---> Go for the whole of it (the mansion with lands) and pool together your resources under the one thing that unites you all.

But alas, he is called a slave... to masters in the sand and of the Indus... yet he is the widest in his thought process... with the most simple of solutions... and yet he is the one called backwards? Amazing. He is beholden to narrow minded interests? Astounding accusation.

Much better Khushal to go to God with clean hands.

If these guys accuse Taliban of killing so many Pashtuns, I find it astonishing that they hatch plans which result in an ultimatum and elimination of their "brothers". Who is more sick, the Talib, whose intention was different then what he wrought or these guys who have a sort of sick naziesque fantasy notion of: all must perish that wont play by my rules?

They may prefer the mannerism of Amanullah, Karzai, Daud, and Najib, but I prefer the mannerism of Ahmad Shah who asked permission to venture through Wazir lands... who when plots were made on his life by even other ethnic group leaders, he soundly beat their army and then still left the ruler in charge. He asked and not ordered local friends in the KP area to contribute their phalanxes to his army. It would be his son who would begin to treat Peshawar as a subjugated land and even earn a plot from an Arbab on his life... he could have learned a lot from his father.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

thats why we will always oppose Pakistan. because any construct that exists between us and India is un natural and strangles afghanistan. if there was no pakistan, we would be in a better position.

having said that, dont mind these kids. Theyve grown up on nationalist songs and durranai propaganda.

i agree with you. the durand line divides culturally the iranic worlds and the hindustani worlds. the indus river is the actual geographical marker

all of these lar pashtuns have been sucking at the british and then pakistani teet for decades. theyre happy where they are.

i always hear about how theres no difference between us Pashtuns. Actually theres a ton of difference. Our ancestors resisted the British, they were subject to it. Our people fought for independence, theyres had their independence granted by mountbatten. we have had to live a life of poverty for our independence, they never made a similar sacrifice

theres a ton of difference between us and lar pakhtuns. maybe once or twice a year we can fight eggs on eid and sing poetry together, and maybe hold a ceremony at bacha khans grave. thats it.

on an individual basis, i love em the way i love any good insaan. on a cultural level, i sympathize with them and have a connection. But Ill probably connect with a kid from my projects the same way, or a Toronto Blue Jay fan. I give props to Kakaristan but thats where it stops..

Ghaznavi brother,

As always history is more complex than that narrative. I have not spoken up too much about this because I think these discussions are theoretical. Theoretics are just a form of theatrics when the application is not achieved or ceases to be practical.

In reality, Afghan land was sold, not once... not simply by Abdurrahman.. but TWICE.

And not by the local tribes either. Those proud Pashtuns actually put up a gallant defense against the Sikhs and were betrayed, not by other local tribes, but by the Barakzai overlords that Kabul had designated as the sardaraan of Peshawaar. These were groups of brothers, some based in Qandahar and some in Peshawar.

One brother in particular, who is actually buried in Afghanistan and who was born in Afghanistan, and was an extension of the Afghan governance until he had his own greedy falling out with Dost Mohammad, was Sultan Muhammad Telai.

If we later on look at Aburrahman as inking out deal with the British, the person who transferred the goods was his grand grand Uncle Sultan Muhammad Telai.

Sultan Muhammad actually sold out Peshawar to the Singhs and did not support the zeal of Dost Mohammad in retaking it.

The prior Kabul dynasty had been dumb enough to treat the Pashtun tribes as vassals and place sardaraan to oversee independent tribes.

These local Pashtun tribes were heavily taxed and were not treated as "brothers in arms" by the subsequent Pashtun dynasties.

Nonetheless they valiantly fought the sikhs until the sardaraan of Peshawar further sold them out.

This has always been one aspect of the earlier history behind the durand conflict that has never been addressed: the role of the Peshawar Sardaraan in not only turning property over... but rather turning it over to Sikhs of all people.

Even then, the Sikhs and the British found that they could try and organize the Wazirs and Mehsuds into little mirrors of Khybar Rifles, but each time they looked away, these tribals would mutiny and massacre their men.

So if we are to blame anybody for the Sikh domination and the British incursion (and recall Shah Shujah was also instrumental in sustaining British rule across the line) then those wretched brothers of Dost Mohammad take the lion's share. Sultan Muhammad himself killed multiple tribal leaders locally.

[Talal]

In the grand scheme of life, it all becomes a bit meaningless..thats the realization I've come to in recent years.

[Shehbaz Khan]

If its your land then how can I sell it, only you have the right to sell it.

Like you don't know who sold what ..and asked whom about it ..

Now let's accept that it belongs to Pakistan ..

[Shehbaz Khan]

Look how brainwashed they are Mostafa. The Panjabis are telling them that they were sold, and he is falling for it for repeating it. Its like when a slave questions why the master owns him and the master tells him that he was sold. How the hell can you give someone else the right to sell you.

Shahbaza, You are pashtun, you are your own master. No one owns you nor can anyone sell you. Wake up Yara.

Haha!! Punjabis are telling me Come on !! :-P

I am a Pashtun I am my own master and currently I want to stay with Pakistan .. Currently I am a Pakistani and that's what I want to be in future .. Thank you .. Now don't tell me I am suffering Identity crisis :-P

[Shehbaz Khan]

well fake nationalists like you treate yourself like prostitutes that can be sold but we pashtuns dont see that like that.
this tactic has been worn out.

Fake Nationalist? Like whom? Like me? Who told you I was a Nationalist? :P

[Shehbaz Khan]

because the border doesnt exist some line was drawn on the map and named it after a british agent.
the taliban dont see the border,so do the tribes from both sides.
i dont know why you want these people to stay devided?

why are you being on the wrong/losing side of history my brother.

The border does exist in many ways and in many technical ways ..