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[Roshina]

Also, can you provide me the Quranic or hadith reference regarding veiling/modestry restrictions and slave women? This is the first time I have heard of this and want to read up on it.

Sure, though lemme remind you that we can google up ANYTHING in today's world And you can determine the authenticity of the text you're reading by googling the scholar/author who wrote the text and seeing what her/his qualifications are. However, I was under the impression that everyone, at least someone of your caliber, knew that free women and slave women had different dress codes in Islam.

Nonetheless, I believe I recommended a book to you or the rest here recently called Speaking in God's Name by Khaled Abou El Fadl. Abou El Fadl is a jurist trained in Islamic law and Islamic sciences the traditional way, the way that classical and medieval Muslim scholars and jurists used to be trained in the precolonial times. So he's, for me, the most reliable source on Islamic legal concerns because he actually has an ijazah, or a license, to be a scholar of Islam.

In the book mentioned above, he goes into great details about what modesty meant once upon a time, what it means today, and what the Quran and hadith say about it. I would quote him, but it's a really lengthy excerpt that I would share, and it's got full citation as well (Quran, hadiths, and - most importantly - citations from jurisprudential texts). He gives the Arabic words in question, their translations according to the people he's talking about, explanations from others, and then his own commentary.

The most relevant page from the above-mentioned book for this discussion is page 255, note 106, which continues on all the way to page 257. All the citation pertinent to the discussion with commentaries can found there as well.

I look forward to your thoughts on it once you read that.

[roadrunner]

THat's NOT a citation, a citation has referential support to back it up

For heaven's sake, it's a citation. It's a reference to a source. That source being the author.

Now whether that source is correct, and whether you choose to believe that source is another matter.

If it was a source known as wiki, then that is your citation. But weak is a much weaker source than my citation since wiki is written by anyone. My source is written by Tanya Cariina Hsu (is a political analyst and researcher focusing on Saudi Arabian and US relations, and advisor to the Friends of Charities Association (FOCA).

You see how my source is a bit stronger than anonymous wiki sources I hope.

Where does this author GET her information?!?!?!?!?!?! Look at your article itself and look at the Bottom

It's an article, not a piece of academic research work. The author is writing what she knows about history.

The point is that it is a citation, it is a reference, since her details are given.

SHE LISTS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in support of her statements here, You're basically offering an Editorial or Opinion piece as evidence.

It's an article, not a piece of opinion.

And you keep switching goal posts; the argument here is whether it's a Pashtun Muslim tradition, not "when" it became a tradition.

Rubbish. My line of argument has always been the same here.

That the veil is not a Pashtun tradition. It is a recent addition to Pashtun culture brought on by instability in the area. Invaders into the area brought with them ideas of veiling (Christian Byzantine invaders initially) which eventually stuck. But only in the last few centuries.

And We can historically extrapolate by the Normalcy of the custom during recorded eras what was practiced before then; because it would be highly illogical without any verified basis to assume that Pashtuns just SUDDENLY practicing veiling as a norm. It would have to have been a long standing practice.

That is why I have given you a reference that you don't seem to want to accept, because it doesn't suit your argument.

But alright, here's another reference which was easier to find because it was from around 200 CE. It would be nicer to have clearer images from the 10th century (and I can assure you they exist), but would require a lot more search).


(Buner, Swat, KhyberPakhtunkhwa, woman in middle).

Islam was not introduced until the 11th century significantly.

So, when exactly did Pashtun women start covering up in large numbers? It was around the 17th century, due to the wars.

Many are claiming that it was earlier than this. Yet they've provided no evidence. I'd like to see this evidence that they claim there is so much of.

If there is no evidence, we can say it is not an indigenous tradition of the Pashtuns since face veiling was introduced by invaders, and for whatever reason (wars probably) veiling stuck in recent centuries.

In fact if you believe your Akbarnama Miniature is evidence, that would give some clues since if you examine the entire Miniature there are no women there, which corroborates with practices associated with veiling women.

I can see some women there. You're just not looking hard enough.

In any case, the argument isn't whether Pashtun women are rarely seen in depictions, it is whether they are veiled. Two seperate things.

[kakargirl]

roadrunner resize the pic,can't even see the thread now without scrolling and i really don't like scrolling it makes me want to pull my hair out.

[roadrunner]

admin, mods, can you resize the pic please? it's a little wide.

[qunduz92]

gosh someone had b i t c h flakes for breakfast this morning.

my life and emotions are not affected by different online characters.

to you this forum might be a place to make friends and enemies to make up for the lack of existence of a social life in reality.

i'm sorry, i have a real life and come here for academic purposes.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Sure, though lemme remind you that we can google up ANYTHING in today's world And you can determine the authenticity of the text you're reading by googling the scholar/author who wrote the text and seeing what her/his qualifications are. However, I was under the impression that everyone, at least someone of your caliber, knew that free women and slave women had different dress codes in Islam.

Nonetheless, I believe I recommended a book to you or the rest here recently called Speaking in God's Name by Khaled Abou El Fadl. Abou El Fadl is a jurist trained in Islamic law and Islamic sciences the traditional way, the way that classical and medieval Muslim scholars and jurists used to be trained in the precolonial times. So he's, for me, the most reliable source on Islamic legal concerns because he actually has an ijazah, or a license, to be a scholar of Islam.

In the book mentioned above, he goes into great details about what modesty meant once upon a time, what it means today, and what the Quran and hadith say about it. I would quote him, but it's a really lengthy excerpt that I would share, and it's got full citation as well (Quran, hadiths, and - most importantly - citations from jurisprudential texts). He gives the Arabic words in question, their translations according to the people he's talking about, explanations from others, and then his own commentary.

The most relevant page from the above-mentioned book for this discussion is page 255, note 106, which continues on all the way to page 257. All the citation pertinent to the discussion with commentaries can found there as well.

I look forward to your thoughts on it once you read that.

Thanks, I was not at all questioning the authenticity of your claims and I hope it did not come across that way. I was sure you had read it somewhere and I want to learn about it, thats all.

Regarding what I know and do not know: Im not of a great caliber when it comes to religion and have read only two predominant Muslim sources: the Quran and the 6 canonical hadith sets. I am also not a native speaker of Arabic. For this reason, I feel that Quranic translation has some good representation in the likes of Yusuf Ali and others, but hadith translation makes you rely on other folks who predominantly derive from Saudi Arabia and that may affect their views on translation of key terms.

I took Messier's class and read some of the orientalists work like Goldziher, Wansborough, Burton and the responses from Azmi to them.

So at best, I am an amateur. However, I do my utmost to demand an evidence based interpretation. For that reason, do not feel insulted when I ask for evidence or attempt to argue against an interpretation with what I feel is primary (Quranic) or secondary (exegetical/hadith) sources.

[qunduz92]

gosh someone had b i t c h flakes for breakfast this morning.

my life and emotions are not affected by different online characters.

to you this forum might be a place to make friends and enemies to make up for the lack of existence of a social life in reality.

i'm sorry, i have a real life and come here for academic purposes.

i had pineapple for breakfast not flakes of any type. don't remind me of your 'academic purposes' unless you want to be affected by my emotions which are very evident everywhere i be at. i have been witnessing you go around about these purposes for quite a while now.. mind you, this is as real as you define real life. don't fool yourself by thinking otherwise or assuming i care for what you refer to as a "social life" which i may or may not give a damn for. i have yet to come across someone i actually like in here. ciao
p.s , you are both equally ridiculous .

i obviously know you come to blows with everyone here while getting away with it easily. mind you, i am the wrong person to practice your insecurity-driven pestering on. i have a lot of things i can expose your intentions with so don't be rubbing my lamp.

[emkhan]

Sure, though lemme remind you that we can google up ANYTHING in today's world And you can determine the authenticity of the text you're reading by googling the scholar/author who wrote the text and seeing what her/his qualifications are. However, I was under the impression that everyone, at least someone of your caliber, knew that free women and slave women had different dress codes in Islam.

Nonetheless, I believe I recommended a book to you or the rest here recently called Speaking in God's Name by Khaled Abou El Fadl. Abou El Fadl is a jurist trained in Islamic law and Islamic sciences the traditional way, the way that classical and medieval Muslim scholars and jurists used to be trained in the precolonial times. So he's, for me, the most reliable source on Islamic legal concerns because he actually has an ijazah, or a license, to be a scholar of Islam.

In the book mentioned above, he goes into great details about what modesty meant once upon a time, what it means today, and what the Quran and hadith say about it. I would quote him, but it's a really lengthy excerpt that I would share, and it's got full citation as well (Quran, hadiths, and - most importantly - citations from jurisprudential texts). He gives the Arabic words in question, their translations according to the people he's talking about, explanations from others, and then his own commentary.

The most relevant page from the above-mentioned book for this discussion is page 255, note 106, which continues on all the way to page 257. All the citation pertinent to the discussion with commentaries can found there as well.

I look forward to your thoughts on it once you read that.

Hay... you are giving references of abul fadi's book. you dont know that he is a person who said that there were 20 grammatical mistakes in the holy Quran. He is a critic of the holy Quran.
if such people are your scholars then apke emaan ka Allah he hafiz.
i think you should join Qadiyanis or christianity where there is no ban on anything. hehehe
Allah pak apko hidayat dain.

[qunduz92]

the general gist i get from analyzation of you is, for one, based on what i can see on this forum, you seem to be a very keen attention-seeker who invests a great deal of time in creating an imaginary online image to impress other internet-users with. your participance primarily revolves around getting attention you may not otherwise receive in real life otherwise you would not resort to an online platform for emotional remarks and focus on establishing a social life within the forum comprising of friendships, rivalries galore.

many of us, on the other hand, come here with different intentions and goals of what we wish to get out of the forum.

is that good enough?

[graveyardofempires]

Hay... you are giving references of abul fadi's book. you dont know that he is a person who said that there were 20 grammatical mistakes in the holy Quran. He is a critic of the holy Quran.
if such people are your scholars then apke emaan ka Allah he hafiz.
i think you should join Qadiyanis or christianity where there is no ban on anything. hehehe
Allah pak apko hidayat dain.

you are replying to harcore atheism defenders here

[qunduz92]

to want something you have to know it well. and to know something well you have to be getting it more than just enough. i wish you yourself knew better what it is that you claim about me. if this is all the "evidence" you have summed up about me then what i just said should suffice and if there is something else that you forgot to mention then please, feel free to let me know about it in the randomness thread.

lol what a response, it doesnt even make sense. this is actually a very recurring phenomena but on this forum you seem to be amongst a mere handful whose expectations and intentions tend to differ from the rest of us, you being the worst among them.

try to invest your energy in something more productive because i honestly am indifferent and could care less about a dutiful online pest. do you get paid for it or something?

[Roshina]

Hay... you are giving references of abul fadi's book. you dont know that he is a person who said that there were 20 grammatical mistakes in the holy Quran. He is a critic of the holy Quran.
if such people are your scholars then apke emaan ka Allah he hafiz.
i think you should join Qadiyanis or christianity where there is no ban on anything. hehehe
Allah pak apko hidayat dain.

Although it's quite obvious that you haven't read him, I will assume for the discussion's sake that you are very familiar with his work, whether you support it or not. Surely, you wouldn't say that unless you have read it yourself, as, otherwise, you would be stating a lie against another human (that even, a Muslim scholar of Islam!), which is a grave sin. In that case, why don't you please provide the reference and tell me where exactly he said that there are ANY types of errors in the Quran? I will be waiting patiently. I've read virtually every work of his and have never seen or heard or read him saying that there are any errors in the Quran.

Manana in advance, wrora! Just the name of the book/article and the page would suffice. I'm DYING to know why he would ever make such a ridiculous claim. I don't trust hear-say; I trust what I read myself, and for that, my dear brother, I need some reference to El Fadl's quote. Thank you, again!

[emkhan]

you are replying to harcore atheism defenders here

Pukhtun and athiesm ???? ufffff so strange so new
extremists ... this is another side of the extreme. liberal extremists or liberal fascists. the so called taliban were in extreme against humanity and these liberal fascists are showing extremism against the Allah's commandments...
they should feel pity on theirselves and should think once again about their eman level

[Roshina]

I meant to say I'll be waiting impatiently Zar kawa, mara ... I'm dying to know when/where/how Khaled Abou El Fadl said there are errors in the Quran.

By the way, the name is Abul (Abou El) Fadl (pa Pukhto/Urdu ke che warta khalak "Fazal" wai), not "Fadi" with an "I". I wonder if that's another person.

[qunduz92]

lol what a response, it doesnt even make sense. this is actually a very recurring phenomena but on this forum you seem to be amongst a mere handful whose expectations and intentions tend to differ from the rest of us, you being the worst among them. what are you going to do about that? burn me alive for not being the same as you??

try to invest your energy in something more productive because i honestly am indifferent and could care less about a dutiful online pest. do you get paid for it or something? is that what is bothering you? the possibility of me getting paid for logging in here? i swear, i don't get paid. i bring my work to home with me so on the weekend i am using my laptop and since i am online, i hang around here...
how m i not supposed to feel special if i have people like you who are only here for academic purposes doing researches on me and that other thing writing articles on my wtichlike behavior all the time?? i am sorry but i can't help it.

i actually dont see you as different at all, but a very common type of character that exists everywhere. such people are commonly referred to as bullies but i consider you more as a pest since you try hard to act tough but are undoubtedly weak and insecure in spirit. thus your constant addiction in pestering others with a keen focus on those who purport unpopular views. therefore, you are, wicked as you are, turning your persona around on others. majority of the world is like you. from bullying characters in highscools to the more bigger picture involving superpower bullies pestering and attacking nations who they fear are different. you my friend are the perfect example of redundant so dont get too happy. people like you exist everywhere.

and thanks for admitting you are an attention seeker changing avatars and signatures every few days in a desperate attempt to impress people.

we are not impressed.