Support shuttlecock burqa

[kakargirl]

Who actually wears a burqa here?

zayam and my self .

[roadrunner]

then show us some references

here is some of mine.

Poetry of Ahmad Shah Baba

O heart-ravisher! there will be none other in the world like unto thee:
Draw aside thy veil, or thy lover will of sorrow and grief expire!

With breast consumed by passion, I ever follow in search of thee;
But thy abode is neither on earth, nor in the heavens to be found.

why is AHmad Shah Baba asking someone to draw their veil if veiling wasnt common?

I don't know.

Poetry is like that. Words may not be meant literally is one possibility.

Another might be he was referring to certain women.

There's very clear evidence that veils were not worn even up till the 15th/16th century.

Even in the 1960s, a substantial portion of urbanite Pashtuns were not wearing any veil.

[khashayar]

Kakargirl: no way!!! Really? But like I kinda got the impression you was to pretty to be locked up in a burqa. :-o

I mean you don't wear afghan burqa do you? DO YOU?

Do you wear the one where only your eyes are visible?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Veiling was highly common in pre-Islamic Iran and Arabia.

Where did you get the idea it was not?

Veiling IS a Middle Eastern, Iranian, Arabic cultural tradition.

It is not, and never was, a Pashtun tradition.

Then why didnt the Muslims adopt veiling until it was revealed?

[ScimitarXEdge]

I can assure you it wasn't until much much after the 11th century conversion that Afghan women started wearing the veil. I'll need to find references though.

This one quite clearly demonstrates it is NOT a Pashtun tradition to have veiled women.

Originally, it was the Chinese who kept women strictly covered thousands of years ago. In the varying dynasties, white was the preferred colour of full body cloaking, red for weddings. The reasoning behind this full covering for women was none other than wealth: hiding one’s jewellery and fine silk clothes from potential thieves was essential, and a woman was not permitted to leave her house without being covered from head to toe. For members of the aristocracy, they were also concealed underneath layers of curtains surrounding their carriages, suspended upon wooden poles and lifted by servants even if merely travelling from one house to another next door. Furthermore, every person on the street was required to turn around and look away until the procession had passed. Until the end of theQing dynasty in the 20th century, this remained Chinese custom.
Next door to China in Afghanistan, women covered because of the climate, as was the case in varying forms throughout the world, whether heavy fur coats, hats and gloves, or gossamer sarongs.

Afghan women did not, however, veil their faces like the Chinese, nor the Arabs to the West - who wore veils for practical reasons and to fend off blistering desert sandstorms.

Afghan women instead resorted to warm practical clothes to protect against harsh cold and snow. When Christian Byzantium entered Afghanistan after the 4th century AD, the women introduced their own top-to-toe coverings carried down through the centuries from ancient Greece and Macedonia. By then the Byzantines claimed the veils were a change away from paganism to honour God; in fact, veiling had been used for centuries for the same reason as in China: it demonstrated high societal rank. Afghanistan was now bookended on both sides by women who fully covered their bodies. It was not long before almost all Afghan women began adopting the Chinese and Greco-Roman practise of covering to shield precious jewels.

http://www.islamdaily.org/en/islam/8...-suspicion.htm

1.) This is passage if you read the article is talking about Pre-Islamic Afghanistan
2.) The passage doesn't have any historical references in support of it

can you please provide a Historical reference, NOT someone's blog.

Tanya Cariina Hsu is a political analyst and researcher focusing on Saudi Arabian and US relations, and advisor to the Friends of Charities Association (FOCA).
_____________________
Footnote:
[1] Surah an-Nur verse 31; Surah al-Ahzab verse 59
[2] “Veil of Suspicion,” 60 Minutes, Australian Channel 9, May 2010; http://video.au.msn.com/watch/video/...picion/xamsf9v

those are the only citations she gives

Show me something from Pashtun historical records from Early Islamic periods.

[kakargirl]

Kakargirl: no way!!! Really? But like I kinda got the impression you was to pretty to be locked up in a burqa. :-o

I mean you don't wear afghan burqa do you? DO YOU?

Do you wear the one where only your eyes are visible?

your a proper joker lol, i posted a pic two 3 pages back of the one i wear here back home i wear the shuttlecock one .

[ScimitarXEdge]

I don't know.

Poetry is like that. Words may not be meant literally is one possibility.

Another might be he was referring to certain women.

There's very clear evidence that veils were not worn even up till the 15th/16th century.

Even in the 1960s, a substantial portion of urbanite Pashtuns were not wearing any veil.

Let's say you're right that Ahmad Shah Abdali didn't mean it literally; he s
still used the image of a veiled woman, which means it was something that was a norm in the society he lived.

where's this evidence, the site you have has no citations or references which support the claim contained with in it.

The 1960's the Urbanite Pashtun elite were trying to imitate Westerners, so that's certainly not an example of Pashtun culture.

[roadrunner]

Then why didnt the Muslims adopt veiling until it was revealed?

Scimitar,

Pre-Islam means before Islam.

The Arabs and the Persians HAD adopted the veil pre-Islam. The Pashtuns did not.

[roadrunner]

1.) This is passage if you read the article is talking about Pre-Islamic Afghanistan
2.) The passage doesn't have any historical references in support of it

can you please provide a Historical reference, NOT someone's blog.

Its not a blog. But I can assure you what they mention there about pre-Islam Afghan women is true. There are many other bits of evidence.

Islam did not become widespread in Afghanistan until the 11th century.

The veil was not adopted until many centuries after this. The veil is not traditionally pashtun based on all this.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Scimitar,

Pre-Islam means before Islam.

The Arabs and the Persians HAD adopted the veil pre-Islam. The Pashtuns did not.

ok but I already conceded Pashtuns did not do it before Islam, so that's irrelevant

If Arabs adopted veils BEFORE Islam

then explain this scenario to me

Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4090
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments

why did these women just start covering themselves up when this verse was revealed if veiling was a cultural norm in Arabia before Islam?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Its not a blog. But I can assure you what they mention there about pre-Islam Afghan women is true. There are many other bits of evidence.

Islam did not become widespread in Afghanistan until the 11th century.

The veil was not adopted until many centuries after this. The veil is not traditionally pashtun based on all this.

Ok you can assure me but I already conceded that veiling didn't exist amongst Pashtuns, fine, but we're talking about Post-Islam, and secondly there are no concrete references of Pashtuns before the 11th century either

can you give a reference PLEASE an actual HISTORICAL reference not someone's article that has NO historical citations what so ever.

[kakargirl]

Scimitar,

Pre-Islam means before Islam.

The Arabs and the Persians HAD adopted the veil pre-Islam. The Pashtuns did not.

let me get this straight, edge wror posted pics of 1800 and you made a big fuss , and now your taking us back over thousand years mmm something dosnt make sense .

[roadrunner]

Let's say you're right that Ahmad Shah Abdali didn't mean it literally; he s
still used the image of a veiled woman, which means it was something that was a norm in the society he lived.

where's this evidence, the site you have has no citations or references which support the claim contained with in it.

The 1960's the Urbanite Pashtun elite were trying to imitate Westerners, so that's certainly not an example of Pashtun culture.

You see this is where you're picking and choosing.

If 1960s Urbanite Pashtun women were trying to imitate westerners, were not rural pashtun women trying to imitate Middle Easterners?

Both those cultures are FOREIGN.

You cannot pick and choose to suit your argument.

[ScimitarXEdge]

let me get this straight, edge wror posted pics of 1800 and you made a big fuss , and now your taking us back over thousand years mmm something dosnt make sense .

he's grasping for the obscure; the problem is if we go back 1000 years, there are no actual concrete references of Pashtuns either, so how he can conclude what Pashtuns were like before Islaam is beyond me.

I'm sure he might be able to cite Biruni or Ferishta or the like, but none actually use the word Pashtun or Pakhtun but "Afghan" which at that time may not have referred to Pashtuns specifically.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You see this is where you're picking and choosing.

If 1960s Urbanite Pashtun women were trying to imitate westerners, were not rural pashtun women trying to imitate Middle Easterners?

Both those cultures are FOREIGN.

You cannot pick and choose to suit your argument.

No because Rural Pashtun women were like that for 100's of years, so for them they were following their own culture; to the rural Pashtun women, they had no idea of what was going on in the Middle East, they just thought they were Muslims and that's just how things were.

the Urbanite pashtun women were specifically doing it because Western women were doing it so they wanted to gain acceptance from White Europeans/Americans and be seen as on par with the Western world. That's imitation