Support shuttlecock burqa

[kakargirl]

he's grasping for the obscure; the problem is if we go back 1000 years, there are no actual concrete references of Pashtuns either, so how he can conclude what Pashtuns were like before Islaam is beyond me.

I'm sure he might be able to cite Biruni or Ferishta or the like, but none actually use the word Pashtun or Pakhtun but "Afghan" which at that time may not have referred to Pashtuns specifically.

exactly wror same thing i was thinking .

[ScimitarXEdge]

In my humble opinion I would say that the people depicted in that painting and Ahmad Shah Abdali knew were much closer to being traditional pashtuns than Roadrunner , I and anyone else here.

So based on that evidence, veiling, at least after Islam became apart of Pashtun society is apart of Pashtun culture.

now the question is, should that sort of veiling be mandated from an Islamic perspective since Islam doesn't require veiling of the face?

[IamDZJ]

can someone help me understand as to why it's so important to know exactly where it came from???
every one has their own reason for wearing it so if they choose to do so then let them be. if someone does not want to wear it, then let them be too. no one's faith becomes stronger by being forced in to wearing it and i don't see how someone else choosing to wear it can affect the rest of us.

[ScimitarXEdge]

^^^ people are politicizing the burqa, they're making it seem like some sort of nationalistic identity card when it has nothing to do with it.

[roadrunner]

ok but I already conceded Pashtuns did not do it before Islam, so that's irrelevant

If Arabs adopted veils BEFORE Islam

then explain this scenario to me



why did these women just start covering themselves up when this verse was revealed if veiling was a cultural norm in Arabia before Islam?

Just take my word for this. You're incorrect if you believe pre-Islamic Arab and persian women did not wear veils. It is easy to look up, but if you want you can apply your logic to realize this.

here is a quote from the Bible

"Now Isaac came from Beer Lahai Roi, for he was living in the Negev. 63 He went out to relax in the field in the early evening. Then he looked up and saw that there were camels approaching. 64 Rebekah looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel 65 and asked Abraham's servant, "Who is that man walking in the field toward us?" "That is my master," the servant replied. So she took her veil and covered herself."

Genesis, 24.

There's many other references.

Therefore in pre-Islamic Arabia, the veil was being used.

It was a pre-Islamic Arabic and persian tradition, not a Pashtun one.

Pashtun women did not wear any veil traditionally because it was not practical for them. The veil had very little to do with modesty traditionally.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Just take my word for this. You're incorrect if you believe pre-Islamic Arab and persian women did not wear veils. It is easy to look up, but if you want you can apply your logic to realize this.

here is a quote from the Bible

"Now Isaac came from Beer Lahai Roi, for he was living in the Negev. 63 He went out to relax in the field in the early evening. Then he looked up and saw that there were camels approaching. 64 Rebekah looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel 65 and asked Abraham's servant, "Who is that man walking in the field toward us?" "That is my master," the servant replied. So she took her veil and covered herself."

Genesis, 24.

There's many other references.

Therefore in pre-Islamic Arabia, the veil was being used.

It was a pre-Islamic Arabic and persian tradition, not a Pashtun one.

Those are Jews who were at least described there as Monotheistic, we're talking about PAGAN Arabia

and no I won't take your word on it, word is not enough in this case because we dont even have a concrete reference with the word PAKHTUN in it going back 1000 years, how can you be so sure of what went on?

First you claimed it had to do with Salafis, and when I showed the veiling was done before Salafis, you disregarded that and pulled back even further, this is called changing goal posts.

I've actually shown pictures and provided references from literature of Pashtuns translated into English, you' provided one reference which had no historical citations and no Pashtun literature.

Even if you are right, which doesn't seem to be the case you're peddling a weak case so far. I am willing to change my views if you provide a sound reference.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Also Roadrunner you didnt explain this account

Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4090
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments

If veiling was a norm in Arabia before Islam, why was it these Arab women just started doing it just when this verse was revealed?

What's your explanation?

[khashayar]

^ I'll tell you in a bit...I'm busy right now I'm reading my holy Bhagvad Gita.

[khashayar]

Lol, junaid is my cousin.

Secondly you ref to homosexuals....like they say it takes one to know one. Wink wink.

[khashayar]

Yeah, and why are yonus khan , shahid afridi, gul, misbah etc playing for my home country.... Mmmmmm....let me see.

[roadrunner]

he's grasping for the obscure; the problem is if we go back 1000 years, there are no actual concrete references of Pashtuns either, so how he can conclude what Pashtuns were like before Islaam is beyond me.

I'm sure he might be able to cite Biruni or Ferishta or the like, but none actually use the word Pashtun or Pakhtun but "Afghan" which at that time may not have referred to Pashtuns specifically.

I'm not grasping at the obscure. Very solid references exist about how Pashtun women used to dress pre-Islam, and just after Islam.

It is a simple fact that Pashtun women did not wear any veil traditionally.

Your use of paintings from the 18th century is as pointless as these pictures from the 16th century Akbernama, that show Kabuli women without veils.

[roadrunner]

No because Rural Pashtun women were like that for 100's of years, so for them they were following their own culture; to the rural Pashtun women, they had no idea of what was going on in the Middle East, they just thought they were Muslims and that's just how things were.

You THINK that rural Pashtun women were dressing that way for centuries. Yet you have no proof of it.

It is the same as saying Urbanite Pashtun women dressed without a veil for centuries. I haven't provided proof that Urbanite Pashtun women dressed without a veil either.

One just happened to resemble a Middle Eastern way of dressing, the other a Western way of dressing. But both were FOREIGN influences. it was not a Pashtun dress practical for living in Pashtun lands.

the Urbanite pashtun women were specifically doing it because Western women were doing it so they wanted to gain acceptance from White Europeans/Americans and be seen as on par with the Western world. That's imitation

This shows your blind bias. You cannot even see the bias in your words.

Urbanite Pashtun women did not wear a veil, so they must have been imitating the Western women.

Rural Pashtun women did wear a veil, so it was because they were not imitating anyone. This is known as Bias.

Where did the veil come from, if Pashtun women were not wearing it pre-Islamically? (I have provided a reference, not a blog to show that the veil was not a Pashtun tradition)

Did it suddenly spring up into the heads of Pashtun women? Or was it introduced, much like the idea of wearing a western skirt was introduced?

[roadrunner]

Those are Jews who were at least described there as Monotheistic, we're talking about PAGAN Arabia

and no I won't take your word on it, word is not enough in this case because we dont even have a concrete reference with the word PAKHTUN in it going back 1000 years, how can you be so sure of what went on?

First you claimed it had to do with Salafis, and when I showed the veiling was done before Salafis, you disregarded that and pulled back even further, this is called changing goal posts.

I've actually shown pictures and provided references from literature of Pashtuns translated into English, you' provided one reference which had no historical citations and no Pashtun literature.

Even if you are right, which doesn't seem to be the case you're peddling a weak case so far. I am willing to change my views if you provide a sound reference.

I never shifted the goalposts. You were just unable to understand what I typed.

You have shifted the goalposts now though. We were talking about pre-Islam Arabia, not pre-Jewish/pagan Arabia.

Read back and you'll see that I referred to pre-Islam Arabia.

But even in pagan Arabia, if you want to go back that far, the veil was worn culturally. But this does not matter, since we only need go back to pre-Islam Arabia, to show that it was a cultural tradition of Arab women to wear veils before Islam.

[khashayar]

Yh he is punjabi Hindu like me. Namaste to you too.

[khashayar]

^Unknown: taa-da kam zai ye? Out of curiosity.