Pakistani Wedding

[Roshina]

I just saw this comment. That's mean Roshina. I expect more from you per our good back and forths. Come on, how was this comment about what a Pashtun is and is not that you made to Wrayun any different? You defined improper male behavior here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

Wrayun:
The following advertisement is paid for by happy secular Pukhtoon citizens:

ATTENTION: YOUNG secular Pukhtoon females! We are looking for qualifying participants. Pay is very good. We promise to make your intro into the business smooth and easy. Leave a reply if interested.


Originally Posted by Wrayun

The following advertisement is paid for by happy secular Pukhtoon citizens:

ATTENTION: YOUNG secular Pukhtoon females! We are looking for qualifying participants. Pay is very good. We promise to make your intro into the business smooth and easy. Leave a reply if interested.
Roshina: I'm sure you believe there's a purpose behind this thread, but you call yourself a PUKHTUN with the above statement? And you have no shame in making such a statement? And then you say that's an advertisement BY Pukhtun secular citizens? What? And you tell me you know what secularism is? Which secularist scholars have you studied to get this idea from? Which books and articles have you read to get an understanding of secularism? I must look into them as well.
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Its not like kakargirl khor singled anyone out here on the forum. Morever, it was not as if you yourself advocated or take part in the behavior she criticized, like most traditional pashtun girls would do back home. I guess what i mean is that she did not take it to a personal level.

~scratching chin~

I read that post a few times, thinking I'm missing something. So either I don't know what you're saying, or you didn't read my above-posted post in context.

As you already know very well, Kakargirl Jaan is always talking about which Pukhtuns are beghairat and which ones are not. In the particular post I replied to her for, she told us that "my family says they are beghairat" or something equally despicable and insecure. So, with good intentions, I reminded her that talking about other people's modes of dressing and thinking styles is actually un-Islamic and is considered gheebah/zghebat.... what with her using a particular brand of Islam to support her views every now and then. That's all.

As for my comment to Wrayun, yes, that still applies. He was prolly trying to be funny, I don't know. He, like a few others, has an "interesting" sense of humor! Nonetheless, I can't imagine what would be funny about posting an "advertisement" like that and then saying it's supported by *Pukhtun secularists*. I would say the same thing to him now that I said at that time - not just to that particular post of his but to all his comments on secularism. He, like many others who are against secularism, has many misconceptions about secularist ideologies.

So, when you get a chance, I'd like to know what exactly the relevance between my comment to Wrayun and my comment to Kakargirl is/was.

P.S. I'm sorry you read my comment such that it sounded mean I'll try to be nicer next time, though I didn't intend to be mean. I was only suggesting to Kakargirl that her holier-than-thou attitude is as disgusting as it can get. But I didn't know how to say it in a nicer way, I guess. Still, I'll try.

[Wrayun]

s[/B]*. I would say the same thing to him now that I said at that time - not just to that particular post of his but to all his comments on secularism. He, like many others who are against secularism, has many misconceptions about secularist ideologies.

What "misconceptions"? I laid down concrete issues with "secularism" in the light of Pukhtoon sensitives and ethics. What was the answer of the secularists? It turned out that Pukhtoon porn, pornographers, was a bit too much for the so-called moderate, civil, freedom loving, advocates of free speech and expression, Pukhtoon "nationalists". It was silly the way most reacted.

I proved that these advocators themselves were not ready for the concepts that they were advocating for i.e. free speech and expression. I'm not the one with any "misconceptions", rather the confusion was on the part of the so-called culturally sensitive, atheist/secularists Pukhtoon "nationalists" who refused to accept the inevitable i.e. Pukhtoon produced smut in a secular society.

Pukhtoon society and culture, heavily intertwined with their religious identity can not be safeguarded in a secular society. Therefore advocating for a secular state all the while under the slogan of Pukhtoon interests, Pukhtoonyat, and Pukhtoonwali, is a misnomer.

You can only advocate for these things with out any predisposed agenda i.e. Pukhtoon Nationalism as these things are universal, and only valid under humanitarian concerns, not under a specific agenda catering to a specific ethnicity.

You can't have a secular Israel when it caters to Jews, or a secular Pakistan, when you cater to Islam. Or secular Pukhtoon state, when it caters to Pukhoonwali and Pukhtoonyat.

[Roshina]

What "misconceptions"?

Your misconception that Pukhtun nationalists and secularists would enjoy anything that has to do with pornography, or at least that they'd support it. It was certainly a misconception and remains so.

And your associating porn with Pukhtun nationalism and/or secularism implies that you lack a deep understanding of secularism in the first place. One need not be a secularist/nationalist to support OR oppose porn.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Your misconception that Pukhtun nationalists and secularists would enjoy anything that has to do with pornography, or at least that they'd support it. It was certainly a misconception and remains so.

And your associating porn with Pukhtun nationalism and/or secularism implies that you lack a deep understanding of secularism in the first place. One need not be a secularist/nationalist to support OR oppose porn.

Would disagree.. secular humanism stands separated from secularism as a concept in and of itself. I cannot access the Britannica but the wikipedia summary of secularism imposes no moral blanket on it and resembles it greatly from my read on this previously with great references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

Wrayun's point is that the society adopts secularism in order to gaurantee a society based on rational thought and not theological thought. Introductoin of humanism into the mix is a tempering element.

However, his question, when distilled down to its most basic form asks simply:
Why should secular humanism impose moralistic confines on a society?

[Wrayun]

Your misconception that Pukhtun nationalists and secularists would enjoy anything that has to do with pornography, or at least that they'd support it. It was certainly a misconception and remains so.

And your associating porn with Pukhtun nationalism and/or secularism implies that you lack a deep understanding of secularism in the first place. One need not be a secularist/nationalist to support OR oppose porn.

That would be only so if it were true. You are deducing that by oversimplifying the purpose and intention behind that thread. Which had nothing to do with secularists, atheists, or nationalists love/approval of pornographic smut. Rather, instead, the possibility of such in a secular Pukhtoon state.

Only a few midst the atheists/secularist/nationalists got it, and the rest couldn't get past their hurt sentimental values over a hypothetical, overly sarcastic, scenario.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Secular Humanism/Ethics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics

So with this in mind... the issue is a valid point that Wrayun raises and places you guys who were arguing with him in a logical conundrum. Here is why:

Basically you are saying that yes we shall have a secular society... but we shall impose secular humanism which shall limit the incorrect cultural impositions that pornography might place on our women (or men).

So then, a Muslim can respond in like and say:
So then, shall you ask me to impose man made ethical limitations in the place of that which God has prescribed? Because then, that is what the imposition of your brand of secularism comes down to... its a bridge to do what the Quran calls "imposing your own vein desires"

[BarakzaiAbdali]

~scratching chin~

I read that post a few times, thinking I'm missing something. So either I don't know what you're saying, or you didn't read my above-posted post in context.

As you already know very well, Kakargirl Jaan is always talking about which Pukhtuns are beghairat and which ones are not. In the particular post I replied to her for, she told us that "my family says they are beghairat" or something equally despicable and insecure. So, with good intentions, I reminded her that talking about other people's modes of dressing and thinking styles is actually un-Islamic and is considered gheebah/zghebat.... what with her using a particular brand of Islam to support her views every now and then. That's all.

As for my comment to Wrayun, yes, that still applies. He was prolly trying to be funny, I don't know. He, like a few others, has an "interesting" sense of humor! Nonetheless, I can't imagine what would be funny about posting an "advertisement" like that and then saying it's supported by *Pukhtun secularists*. I would say the same thing to him now that I said at that time - not just to that particular post of his but to all his comments on secularism. He, like many others who are against secularism, has many misconceptions about secularist ideologies.

So, when you get a chance, I'd like to know what exactly the relevance between my comment to Wrayun and my comment to Kakargirl is/was.

P.S. I'm sorry you read my comment such that it sounded mean I'll try to be nicer next time, though I didn't intend to be mean. I was only suggesting to Kakargirl that her holier-than-thou attitude is as disgusting as it can get. But I didn't know how to say it in a nicer way, I guess. Still, I'll try.

It appears that your call out of him was for his breach of morality in using this particular example of a lincentious Pashtun girl. Basically it was like saying: You are a bey ghairath for using this example... not you are a bey ghairath for telling a lie against secular humanists. If the latter was your intention then that is a different matter.. but the sentence in question refers to the lincentious example.

Kakargirl, like many, was commenting on that video... no different than unknownprince has commented or others have commented on the nature of an observed video or no different than when Toramana has questioned the consistently what he believes is the sly and sneaky or subethical standards used by "desis."

However, kakagirl gets the brunt of the attacks (not that you are a ringleader at all... your concern may have been genuine) for espousing a conservative view. It appears per her posts and thanks that she has a pretty wide range of acceptance and thanks folks like Toramana, Masterkhan, many of the females, etc. and did not mean to impose that cultural norm on any woman here.

[ScimitarXEdge]

~scratching chin~

I read that post a few times, thinking I'm missing something. So either I don't know what you're saying, or you didn't read my above-posted post in context.

As you already know very well, Kakargirl Jaan is always talking about which Pukhtuns are beghairat and which ones are not. In the particular post I replied to her for, she told us that "my family says they are beghairat" or something equally despicable and insecure. So, with good intentions, I reminded her that talking about other people's modes of dressing and thinking styles is actually un-Islamic and is considered gheebah/zghebat.... what with her using a particular brand of Islam to support her views every now and then. That's all.

As for my comment to Wrayun, yes, that still applies. He was prolly trying to be funny, I don't know. He, like a few others, has an "interesting" sense of humor! Nonetheless, I can't imagine what would be funny about posting an "advertisement" like that and then saying it's supported by *Pukhtun secularists*. I would say the same thing to him now that I said at that time - not just to that particular post of his but to all his comments on secularism. He, like many others who are against secularism, has many misconceptions about secularist ideologies.

So, when you get a chance, I'd like to know what exactly the relevance between my comment to Wrayun and my comment to Kakargirl is/was.

P.S. I'm sorry you read my comment such that it sounded mean I'll try to be nicer next time, though I didn't intend to be mean. I was only suggesting to Kakargirl that her holier-than-thou attitude is as disgusting as it can get. But I didn't know how to say it in a nicer way, I guess. Still, I'll try.

I definitely do not abide by Kakargirl's way of thinking, but the technical definition of Ghaibah, is to reveal things about a person's short comings which are not publicly known and/or to slander them for the sake of slander.

There are exclusions to Ghaibah as follows

There are certain cases the scholars of Islam excluded from being a sinful gossip (ghibah). These are classified into six categories, and one would not be sinful for committing gossip (ghibah) if his case fell into one of these six:

1. To go to the Muslim judge or one with jurisdiction to tell him about an injustice done to him in order to help him take his right.

2. To talk about a person’s sins that he hates mentioned, in order to seek help in preventing the person from continuing their sins. Hence, one is not sinful if he knows a Muslim who is committing a particular sin, and informs another of that matter so that the latter will help the sinful Muslim refrain from committing those sins.

However, be advised here of a very fine line: Many times a person lets loose his grudges against another to break him and seek revenge. Still, this person bluffs himself by claiming his intention is to help that person clear himself of his sin. In such a case, one does not escape the sin of gossip (ghibah).

3. To tell the mufti about someone else’s sin that he hates mentioned for the purpose of seeking the judgment of that particular matter. For example, for a man to tell the mufti his wife leaves the house against his permission does not make him sinful if one is seeking the religious judgment on that matter. However, the scholars said in such a case, one is recommended not to mention names, but to phrase the question in the third person. For example, to say: "What is the judgment according to the Religion if one's wife left the house against her husband’s permission?"

4. To depict a person with one of his attributes that he hates mentioned with the purpose of identifying him. For example, it is allowed for someone to tell his son to go and give some money to ‘the one-legged man next door,’ to clarify for the son exactly which man is meant.

5. To tell about another person’s sins which he himself openly declares. Hence, it is not sinful for one to tell about a person who himself declares he drinks alcohol or does so publicly.

6. To warn other Muslims against a sinner. This is a very important issue. It is an obligation on us to warn against those who cheat Muslims. If, for example, one knows of a waylayer targeting a route along which Muslims intend to travel, one would be sinful if he kept silent from warning the Muslims of this, thereby letting them fall prey to the waylayer. Moreover, it is more of an obligation to warn against those who cheat Muslims in their Religion than to warn against those who cheat in the worldly matters. If one knows of anyone who cheats the Muslims in their Religion, by falsely claiming to be knowledgeable, teaching them blasphemy, and/or giving them answers to Islamic questions that are incorrect--then it is an obligation to warn the Muslims against them.

Based on the technical definition of ghaibah, then Kakargirl's statements cannot be considered ghaibah, and more over even if they were hypothetically speaking possibly a form of ghaibah, one needs to know Kakargirl's intention first, is she doing it to express outrage or highlight a moral problem that's affecting our community or is she just trying to smear others for the sake of harming them?

By not knowing what Kakargirl's intention on in this issue and portraying her behavior as ghaibah, when it's possibly not ghaibah, is buhtaan (spreading lies) and this is actually a much graver and more severe crime than ghaibah.

I don't agree with Kakargirl's views necessarily; but I understand the distinction between ghaibah and what she does.

The Nabi(saw) used to use similar approach by saying "such and such people" and mention a short coming or wrong doing committed, and this was not deemed ghaibah

[Roshina]

wror thank you but this is just petty games women play its nothing to do with ghaibah because if you look at page 6 where i quoted manzareh wror, i said iv never seen such things thank allah when hes talking about boob tube astaghfar ect and that we call these type of people diluted begharath , so my quote turned in to this , if i hadnt quoted manzareh wror none of this would have happened roshina is like a hawk always looking for excuses then other females come and thank her so let it go what they really want is me off this site as i'm a block they hate girls like me but the reality is afghanistan is full of girls like me and the quote that manzareh made were on afghan people not pahktun khwa but she jumps in its as simple as that let her do as she pleases.

Wai qurban, guley!

Before anything, I felt like I should reply to this because you said I hate you. Actually, I don't hate you. At all. I neither have a reason to hate you nor the strength. Hating others requires a lot of strength because you have to be strong enough to force yourself to think about that person 24'7 and maybe even think of revenge -- and just hold a grudge against that person, period. Me, I'd much rather use my time writing a silly post on my blog than hate someone.

As for my real feelings about you, I'm not shy to say the following.
I commend you for the thing that many others commend you for: Despite having never visited Afghanistan (or maybe because of it), despite having lived in the UK all/most of your life, you have held strongly to your culture and have proven Pukhtuns wrong when they say that when Pukhtaney girls are raised in the west, they go "bad." So for that, I appreciate and respect you.

However, I completely disagree with your efforts to prove other Pukhtaney, based on how they dress or think or carry themselves, cheap or beghairata because then it makes me wonder, "Oh God no. Another UK-raised Pukhtana who thinks she's better than others." It upsets me because it shows the lack of Pukhtaney we have who fall in between. Most of us are either too liberal or too strict; few (if any!) are in between.

Upsetting isn't the right word, actually. I think it's disappointing. Disappointing that a girl who actually CAN prove better isn't doing so. Why talk badly of others at all? Leave them be. Simply say it's not something you were raised to do yourself or something you'd want your own daughters or female friends to do. There's no reason to call names and issue fatwas of ghairat and beghairati.

But still bear in mind, guley, that this is my opinion. I have always, from day one of my joining PF, encouraged others to find faults in what I say, to disagree with me, and to express that disagreement--in a healthy manner. Unfortunately, like most others, you misunderstand that. And that's fine, but it's just not great.

You see, you think I'm here to get other females to "Thank" me (quoting you from your above post). I'm actually not here for that at all. I neither keep track of how many thanks I get or who thanks me or why I'm being thanked or anything like that. Sure, it's great to have support, but I have trained myself to NOT expect support from anyone. Every single person on PF who's been here since March (2010), or anyone who's been on another Pukhtun forum (Khyberwatch.com, Pukhto.org (CK)), and anywhere else can assure you that I never seek anyone's love, respect, support, or thanks. I'm controversial, as you might have noted yourself, and controversial people aren't known to get a lot of support -- and I love myself this way!

But what's important for YOU to notice, guley, is that rarely will anyone, especially females, agree with me on what I say. So your assumption that I'm here to get females to thank me doesn't hold true.

Why am I telling you this? Because I don't want you to think I hate you. I don't hate you. I want you to remain exactly as you are. I don't want you to become a me or another woman. I want--no, I NEED--you to remain Kakargirl! I live to see Pukhtun women happy, and I don't define happiness for anyone but myself. One reason I feel some happiness in knowing of you is that there's a Pukhtana out there who is, according to her own statements, choosing to live the lifestyle that many other Pukhtaney women avoid or don't want to live. What I don't want you to do, though, is to say that the women who don't live like or you or don't wanna live like you are brainwashed or westernized or beghairata or un-Pukhtan because it means that you are doing the exact same thing to those women that you don't want them to do to you, which is to tell you how to live your life or to define freedom for you.

Barakzai once said in another thread that Kakargirl's views are too conservative for the Pukhtun girls here to appreciate or something (these are not his exact words, but I don't wanna go searching for his post now). I wanted to reply then but decided not to because he'd see the truth himself eventually. The truth, you see, is that you're not the only one with your views here. Most of the females here think like you. And most of the females here disagree with my views. But are we here to get each other to disagree with us? If so, we're here for the wrong reasons, I would think.

I want us, especially Puhktun women, to respect each other, to encourage each other, to love each other, to support each other -- whether we are conservative, liberal (whatever these terms mean!), and whatever else that lies in between or beyond these complex self-imposed terms. I'm a feminist (I no longer care what people think feminism is). That means I believe in the humanity of ALL women, whether I disagree with their lifestyles or not, and all other individuals, whether i agree with them or not. Hence, for me to hate you or to think low of you or to think I'm better than to you or to prevent you from being what you want to be defeats the whole essence of my being a feminist. As a woman, then, I consider it my duty, Kakargirl, to be happy for you when you are happy, to share your sadness, to fight the world with you when you think it needs to be fought, to protect you when you need to be protected.

Would I like to live the kind of life you live, guley? No, I wouldn't. Do I think you deserve to live the life you wish to live? YES! You have as much a right to express your opinions as I do.

Bottom line: I don't hate you. Please don't think that! Then I'd have to find 3 hours of my life some time this week to sit down and reflect on everything I've said during the last few months to wonder why you'd think that. I don't want anyone to think I hate them because I don't. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I hate you. It means I think you are intelligent enough to hear a different viewpoint, whether you choose to take it or not. If I didn't respect you, I wouldn't entertain your points.

Now smile, will you!

[kakargirl]

Wai qurban, guley!

Before anything, I felt like I should reply to this because you said I hate you. Actually, I don't hate you. At all. I neither have a reason to hate you nor the strength. Hating others requires a lot of strength because you have to be strong enough to force yourself to think about that person 24'7 and maybe even think of revenge -- and just hold a grudge against that person, period. Me, I'd much rather use my time writing a silly post on my blog than hate someone.

As for my real feelings about you, I'm not shy to say the following.
I commend you for the thing that many others commend you for: Despite having never visited Afghanistan (or maybe because of it), despite having lived in the UK all/most of your life, you have held strongly to your culture and have proven Pukhtuns wrong when they say that when Pukhtaney girls are raised in the west, they go "bad." So for that, I appreciate and respect you.

However, I completely disagree with your efforts to prove other Pukhtaney, based on how they dress or think or carry themselves, cheap or beghairata because then it makes me wonder, "Oh God no. Another UK-raised Pukhtana who thinks she's better than others." It upsets me because it shows the lack of Pukhtaney we have who fall in between. Most of us are either too liberal or too strict; few (if any!) are in between.

Upsetting isn't the right word, actually. I think it's disappointing. Disappointing that a girl who actually CAN prove better isn't doing so. Why talk badly of others at all? Leave them be. Simply say it's not something you were raised to do yourself or something you'd want your own daughters or female friends to do. There's no reason to call names and issue fatwas of ghairat and beghairati.

But still bear in mind, guley, that this is my opinion. I have always, from day one of my joining PF, encouraged others to find faults in what I say, to disagree with me, and to express that disagreement--in a healthy manner. Unfortunately, like most others, you misunderstand that. And that's fine, but it's just not great.

You see, you think I'm here to get other females to "Thank" me (quoting you from your above post). I'm actually not here for that at all. I neither keep track of how many thanks I get or who thanks me or why I'm being thanked or anything like that. Sure, it's great to have support, but I have trained myself to NOT expect support from anyone. Every single person on PF who's been here since March (2010), or anyone who's been on another Pukhtun forum (Khyberwatch.com, Pukhto.org (CK)), and anywhere else can assure you that I never seek anyone's love, respect, support, or thanks. I'm controversial, as you might have noted yourself, and controversial people aren't known to get a lot of support -- and I love myself this way!

But what's important for YOU to notice, guley, is that rarely will anyone, especially females, agree with me on what I say. So your assumption that I'm here to get females to thank me doesn't hold true.

Why am I telling you this? Because I don't want you to think I hate you. I don't hate you. I want you to remain exactly as you are. I don't want you to become a me or another woman. I want--no, I NEED--you to remain Kakargirl! I live to see Pukhtun women happy, and I don't define happiness for anyone but myself. One reason I feel some happiness in knowing of you is that there's a Pukhtana out there who is, according to her own statements, choosing to live the lifestyle that many other Pukhtaney women avoid or don't want to live. What I don't want you to do, though, is to say that the women who don't live like or you or don't wanna live like you are brainwashed or westernized or beghairata or un-Pukhtan because it means that you are doing the exact same thing to those women that you don't want them to do to you, which is to tell you how to live your life or to define freedom for you.

Barakzai once said in another thread that Kakargirl's views are too conservative for the Pukhtun girls here to appreciate or something (these are not his exact words, but I don't wanna go searching for his post now). I wanted to reply then but decided not to because he'd see the truth himself eventually. The truth, you see, is that you're not the only one with your views here. Most of the females here think like you. And most of the females here disagree with my views. But are we here to get each other to disagree with us? If so, we're here for the wrong reasons, I would think.

I want us, especially Puhktun women, to respect each other, to encourage each other, to love each other, to support each other -- whether we are conservative, liberal (whatever these terms mean!), and whatever else that lies in between or beyond these complex self-imposed terms. I'm a feminist (I no longer care what people think feminism is). That means I believe in the humanity of ALL women, whether I disagree with their lifestyles or not, and all other individuals, whether i agree with them or not. Hence, for me to hate you or to think low of you or to think I'm better than to you or to prevent you from being what you want to be defeats the whole essence of my being a feminist. As a woman, then, I consider it my duty, Kakargirl, to be happy for you when you are happy, to share your sadness, to fight the world with you when you think it needs to be fought, to protect you when you need to be protected.

Would I like to live the kind of life you live, guley? No, I wouldn't. Do I think you deserve to live the life you wish to live? YES! You have as much a right to express your opinions as I do.

Bottom line: I don't hate you. Please don't think that! Then I'd have to find 3 hours of my life some time this week to sit down and reflect on everything I've said during the last few months to wonder why you'd think that. I don't want anyone to think I hate them because I don't. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I hate you. It means I think you are intelligent enough to hear a different viewpoint, whether you choose to take it or not. If I didn't respect you, I wouldn't entertain your points.

Now smile, will you!

well to this i say za mutasem yem, and daira manana, but my thoughts and veiws will always stand inshallah i am who i am a strict conservative pashtun afghan, and views will never change no matter what and quotes and debates are welcome.

[qunduz92]

Btw roshina khor,

The "filthy filth filth" comment is not directed. I direct this at people who do bad things. I also use this language do brainwash my siblings, and it has mashAllah worked.

And safeguarded them from filth.

haha, i brainwash my little sisters too

[Admin Khan]

For the sake of whatever God you believe in, don't derail this thread.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I agree with Unknown on this issue; the purpose of dsparaging or portraying certain acts loathesomely is to create a psychology of discouragement. The reason people end up dressing indecently, engaging in indecent acts in the first place is because it was made to seem pleasant and desirable in the first place. Sometimes it astonishes me how some people can believe that, but with this commercial culture brainwashing people it creates this delusion that self destructive choices are otherwise.

So often it's necessary to speak about such acts , such people who do such acts and the consequences of such deeds with the harshest tone possible, albeit without falling into the pitfall of a mere smear campaign.

[IamDZJ]

We are all blessed with the same amount of brain in our skulls as others. There is also this thing called free will.
If people were not stupid they wouldnt be fooled by the media or society in the first place nor would they turn around to blame the two for alluring them that easily in to doing something the responsibility for which they dont want to take. LAME
Teachimg people to value self preservation over a nasty habit of constantly whining is a far better option.

[Roshina]

^ Very beautifully said, DZJ! Exactly the point. Whining and labeling them as this and that gets us nowhere. Hence my observation that we need something better to do with our lives than to point fingers. Preventing your own children/families from doing wrong doesn't, and it certainly shouldn't, mean you talk badly of others. Because your labels are utterly meaningless and don't teach anyone anything. If someone's gonna avoid doing "bad" just because they don't wanna be considered beghairat or un-Pukhtun, that's their problem but they need to re-evaluate their values a bit. And no family that points fingers at others and has the time to decide who's Pukhtun and who's not, who's beghairata and who's not, isn't respectable enough for me to worry about their opinions of me or anyone else in the first place.