Barakzai Abdali as Pashtunforums Thinktank

[haviZsultan]

I had a debate with Barakzai Abdali (though our views do not match on certain topics) and was wondering about his debating ability. He debates like a professional often bringing up examples to back up his points while also presenting sources. Personally I have seen this type of style on professional sites dedicated to debate which requires a lot of knowledge about current happenings so you can provide examples to back up your case.

Furthermore I have never really seen him resort to personal attacks or insults to present his point which only serves to strengthen his case. He seems not to be emotionally attached which allows him to think with logic.

Now Pashtunforums still does not have a think-tank or an Opinionator as some other forums have. Perhaps BarakzaiAbdali may be a useful first member of the think-tank. After all Pashtuns need some scholars, whatever view they may represent as Pashtunforums prides itself over having various differing opinions.

I mean I am quite new to this forum. Its just a suggestion. What do you guys think about this? I disagree with Barakzai Abdali on many points, particularly over secularism but I still recommend him. I mean we should all learn to tolerate each others differing opinions and if the person presents them in a professional manner... its good for the forum? Aye?

[یاسمینه]

I noticed long time ago that BA (and some other members - like Tor Khan) can logically and factually debate without insults and attacks. This skill rarely seen on the forum.
As a non-Pashtun member of this forum I will support every initiative aimed at promoting debates and discussions conducted in non offensive and logical manner.

[Al Hanif]

I noticed long time ago that BA (and some other members - like Tor Khan) can logically and factually debate without insults and attacks. This skill rarely seen on the forum.

You forgot about you.

I have far more respect for those among us who sacrified themselves in the service of truth and justice.

Brother Ghundal is one of them.

There is nothing in our religion that teaches us to accept to be persecuted. Those among the kuffars and the apostates who lacked respect to us do not deserve our respect and will be treated accordingly.

[یاسمینه]

SG, if you want to discuss anything that is posted in kitabtun, then please copy this message or make a new thread anywhere but kitabtun. Discussions are not allowed in the kitabtun. It's one of PF rules. Nothing more.

[khushal]

Shadow, you should put a link for the message that is in your signature.

[Catya Sher]

I'll back up what Hanif said about the amazingly devoted member,
Ghundal - Unknown.
He persisted despite the most unbelievable persecution by
especially a supposedly "cool-headed, liberal, even-handed" - moderator ?!
Plus much mockery from so many quarters which was NOT deserved at all
Same with GYE, victim of cruel statements at the hands of
a supposedly "respected" member. Respected, why? Because of
having been on a TV show once where he sold out the cause of Afghans
complaining that Pakistan is the TRUE threat to Afghanistan,
NOT America, with 150,000 troops massacring and bullying on a regular basis ??
So let's hear it for some of the members who have stood up against
ALL ridicule and still tried to present a good picture of how REAL AFGHANS
think.
Not synthetic ones in the "diaspora" who lack any real feeling of what a pashtun or Afghan in the homeland
will be thinking and feeling regarding current events.

If these good members display a little emotion occasionally it is not
out of lack of control. But because of being in deep empahty with the feelings of their own people. Not looking over their shoulders for the approval
of Westerners and Western-minded members.

[khushal]

Im thinking it might have something to do with pf policy since they cannot independently verify the authenticity of the charity organization

[Manzareh]

I always read every BarakzaiAbdali post i come accross

[Admin Khan]

BarakzaiAbdali, tor_khan, and many more are our leaders/masharan here. We all have so much to learn from them. I really wish all of us can behave like them at times.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Thanks guys, undue praise I think. I always felt that my engineering professors were far more objective than other folks I saw, and I do my best to emulate them.

What I have realized in life is that there are really two ways to approach subjects with polar opposite viewpoints.

1. Take preconceived notions, which may have some degree of correctness to them, and try to locate evidence to buttress these views.
2. Separate yourself from the subject at hand and do your best to find objective noninvested sources and collect the data/evidence and then come to a conclusion.

I have tried to do my best to emulate route 2, but admittedly have fallen prey to my own humanity at other times and really taken route 1.

As an example, we can take a subject that really doesnt or has not yet touched the lives of many Pashtuns overtly. I stress the word overtly because I am trying to avoid generalizations. One caucasian American colleague of mine noted how I dont really get passionate one way or the other about the American Roe versus Wade debate... yet Americans themselves are very charged in polar opposite directions over this debate and it has even resulted in deaths.

Since this issue in no way really affects anyone I know thus far (except patients - but I mean on a personal level), and generally appears to be a debate confined to politics, I feel that I could read the available evidence and not be moved by emotion regarding the debate. For instance, Ron Paul has his views on whether Roe v Wade infringed on states rights and others have variant constitutional interpretations.

The issue with the discussions that we undertake is that they are based on
1. Anecdote from our travels across Pashtun lands - we have to remember that these lands cover roughly the area of Texas and very few can say their sample size reaches relevence or generalizability.
2. They, like political party affiliations or views on other important matters can be biased based on important people in our lives impacting or shaping our views.
3. Philosophical ideologies superimpose over interpretations of history.
4. Societal expectations and pressures to conform both locally (within Afghan confines) and based on the adopted society's view of what is right and wrong.
5. Selective reading - everyone sees the evidence they want to see and ignores the rest.

I have tried to temper these confounders of the evidence as best I can by augmenting my range of travel, reading the works of those with diametrically opposed viewpoints - e.g. even reading the ideologies of Najibullah and KHAD members like Atmar or the work of Ajmal Khattak to understand what their cause celebre was, and then reading the works of outsiders to gain some objectivity.

I really admire those authors like Michael Scheuer, Robert Pape, and Patrick Buchanon (I know the latter name makes Americans here cringe) as they, on the whole, are the only authors I have found who have accessed and arranged as much open source evidences as possible and then drew conclusions based on the words and deeds of their adversary. I found this a refreshing departure from the generally state a view and build evidence around it approach that I read from native authors. For instance, Najib espouses the view that certain groups unravelled gains from Amanullah's time but never goes into detail about A) the basis for how this occured or B) An analysis of why these gains unraveled. It simply starts off with an assumption that everyone reading this work will accept his view and then he starts off on a narrative which has some factual basis ---> then he proceeds to pass judgement on the event. The information provided is not so much an analysis as a series of journal logs/political speeches addressing a greivance. Mir Enayatullah Sadaat does much of the same and really attempts to build a passionate case for Najib as opposed to critically analyzing his decisions via even known open source information. That does not mean the information is not important as it provides is crucial data on why he thought the way he did and how his views were shaped. In this same class, Zaeef writes an excellent text for folks wanting to familiarize themselves with his version of events, but it does not necessarily provide us with an evidence based approach to why certain mentors of his sided with Khalq/Parcham. The conclusions drawn about these mentors are simply, they "changed" or became lost to him. I guess the equivalent would be like reading a book by Clinton and then reading a book George Bush 1... both would provide very passionate views and personal experiences of these 2 men, but they would likely include evidence that accords with their platform, criticize opponent policy, but avoid a critical balanced analysis of the two contrasting platforms and the historical basis behind them.

The Americans mentioned by contrast, who are patriotic to their nation, either have a goal of defeating their enemy or removing their nation from entanglements. These investments do not hinge upon Pashtun ethnocentrism or historical revisionism. Their work appears more trustworthy because they understand the time honored dictum, that you must know your enemy to defeat him. That then renders an attempt at analysis to be a bit more objective since much more than rhetoric hinges on it.

What the (elusive) holy grail of my discussions has been to
1. Approximate what the masses would be the most comfortable with, especially the rural masses
2. Understand historical context locally and globally and weed out rhetoric

At the end of the day, I have come to realize cemented views are hard to shake per reasons 1&2 at the beginning of this post, for myself and others alike.

At the end of it all, perhaps tis best to take take the route of Zain Al Abideen and not get bogged down in a mental war of attrition about these subjects anymore. Just retire to writing poetry and practicing medicine.

[tor_khan]

I have much much respect for BarakzaiAbdali, his thoughtful manner and his fair and inclusive approach.

He serves as a very balanced and wise role model typifying what I understand of a drund Pashtun.

May Allah keep him protected. Ameen.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

One can see that the sort of approach that i described above even mars advancements for Karzai's government:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...846246922.html

Excellent new article above.

Here is an example of the PF style of debate (note I am not saying that the mods or Admins advocate this style):

"In presence of western officials, Afghan president's chief of staff and senior diplomat accused each other of spying"

"Ludin, one of Karzai's chief negotiators, turned to Khurram and reiterated the General's point - that such comments hindered negotiations with the US.
Khuram, according to the palace sources, said GMIC was only defending Afghanistan's interests - which Ludin took as an insult.
What Khurram insinuated, an official close to Ludin said, was that the foreign ministry was betraying Afghanistan in negotiations with the US.
Ludin said he would take it upon himself to stop GMIC from making such statements, to which Khurram reportedly responded: "Not even your father can do that."
"You are a spy for the Americans, you do whatever they tell you," Khurram told Ludin at the meeting, according to one official.
Ludin, in return, accused Khurram of spying for Pakistan. At that point, General Allen and Ambassador Crocker are said to have stepped in to prevent a physical confrontation."

Recall also the video that Graveyard posted here months ago from the Kandahari Cleric who gave an impassioned speech that even moved Ahmad Wali Karzai. He indicated that his objections to actions taken by ANA troops in his district and mosque caused those raiding soldiers, Afghans mind you, to call him a Pakistani.
My point is that two way criticisms are aimed at deflecting away from the holy grail I noted above.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I have much much respect for BarakzaiAbdali, his thoughtful manner and his fair and inclusive approach.

He serves as a very balanced and wise role model typifying what I understand of a drund Pashtun.

May Allah keep him protected. Ameen.

Too kind. I would say that I have certainly had my own share of emotional outbursts over issues to dear to my person.

[roadrunner]

Lol, Ghundal. The extremist mob on here have severe mental problems.

Lucky their breed is slowly terminating itself. It's the natural evolutionary course.

[khushal]

Lol, Ghundal. The extremist mob on here have severe mental problems.

Lucky their breed is slowly terminating itself. It's the natural evolutionary course.

I guess you have escaped this natural evolutionary course. What is your secret.